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Anno
Experimenter
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The Importance of Gas Exchange
#1226637 - 01/17/03 11:18 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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When mushrooms digest a substrate, they produce carbon dioxide, and consume oxygen. This is a fairly important factor determining success or demise of a growth attempt.
I prepared a few plastic containers with 1/2 pint content with my standard substrate I use for PFtek jars.The plastic containers have a lid, that completely seals the container, so there is no gas exchange.
When I use the same substrate in jars with an aluminum foil lid, like described at www.fungifun.org I get full colonization in 8-12 days.
The spores germinated after 2 days and the colonization went fairly fast for another 3 days, then it suddenly stopped.
I left is then another week, and the colonization barely moved on. Then I opened the container in font of a flow hood for a few seconds to provide some air. The colonization again started, and again halted after a few days.... I repeated this another 2 times, and after 1 month into colonization, the substrate is still not completely colonized. You can see at the pictures how the mycelium has a different appearance in some areas and it shows the different growth and stall phases.
The inoculation was at the sides and one inoculation point at the top of substrate. There is no vermiculite seal, but a thin vermiculite bottom layer.
So, people, never seal your jars.....
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ajg2425
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1226713 - 01/17/03 11:43 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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thats not completley accurate...you should try doing it with like 8sealed and 8unsealed to get better information.
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SixCee
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1226724 - 01/17/03 11:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I never seal them. After sterilization I rip that tin foil off and leave it like that.
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -->The above statements may or not be true. ->Quote of the Moment : "Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie ----> PMs checked daily.
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GratefulDread
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1226735 - 01/17/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yet another useful informative post anno thanks. For quite a while now I?ve been using drinking glasses instead of wide mouth jars becuse they are cheaper, easier to get the colonized cake out of and seem to colonize faster. One thing I have noticed though is that the foil lids seem to allow some moisture escape and I was wondering if maybe the mycellium is colonizing faster because the substrate is drier? Here?s a couple of bad webcam pics of some glasses prepared with a foil lid and fully colonized. I know you can?t see them well but it does give you a basic idea I cross the tape over the top before innoculating to keep the foil from ripping at the innoculation points and then retape it after to keep out contams
-------------------- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
Edited by GratefulDread (01/17/03 11:52 AM)
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GratefulDread
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1226736 - 01/17/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yet another useful informative post anno thanks.
For quite a while now I've been using drinking glasses instead of wide mouth jars becuse they are cheaper, easier to get the colonized cake out of and seem to colonize faster.
One thing I have noticed though is that the foil lids seem to allow some moisture escape and I was wondering if maybe the mycellium is colonizing faster because the substrate is drier?
Here's a couple of bad webcam pics of some glasses prepared with a foil lid and fully colonized. I know you can't see them well but it does give you a basic idea
[image] [/image]
[image] [/image]
I cross the tape over the top before innoculating to keep the foil from ripping at the innoculation points and then retape it after to keep out contams
-------------------- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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EthnoJimmy
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: SixCee]
#1226738 - 01/17/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I leave the foil on, but unscrew the lids just a touch.
-------------------- Don't walk behind me, I will not lead? Don't walk in front of me, I will not follow? Just walk beside me and be a friend.
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SixCee
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: EthnoJimmy]
#1226742 - 01/17/03 11:51 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dont unscrew them at all and leave them on tight. I rely on the verm. barrier to keep out contams but this micorice tek I am doing now I might have to shake my ajrs which may mess everything up.
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -->The above statements may or not be true. ->Quote of the Moment : "Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie ----> PMs checked daily.
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EthnoJimmy
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: SixCee]
#1226748 - 01/17/03 11:53 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I use wbs, and don't use a verm seal. You're right, it'll suck if you have to shake it.
-------------------- Don't walk behind me, I will not lead? Don't walk in front of me, I will not follow? Just walk beside me and be a friend.
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: ajg2425]
#1226780 - 01/17/03 12:09 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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>thats not completley accurate...you should try doing it with like 8sealed and >8unsealed to get better information. Will those be enough? I can?t show you the regular cakes, since they were done and away a long time
Edited by Anno (01/17/03 09:48 PM)
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vatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Anno]
#1226799 - 01/17/03 12:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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EthnoJimmy
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: vatoloco]
#1226941 - 01/17/03 01:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I use foil over the regular lid. I just lift the foil a touch and inoc through a hole in the top of the lid.
-------------------- Don't walk behind me, I will not lead? Don't walk in front of me, I will not follow? Just walk beside me and be a friend.
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TinMan
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1227032 - 01/17/03 02:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I noticed your containers are next to your computer. Do you use your tower to incubate them in?
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Anonymous
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1227033 - 01/17/03 02:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: TinMan]
#1227039 - 01/17/03 02:21 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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>I noticed your containers are next to your computer. Do you use your tower to incubate them in?
No, this is just an old pentium laying around and waiting that I find time and will to set it up for making time laps photos...
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SixCee
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1227114 - 01/17/03 03:09 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have the regular lids on screwed tight. After sterilization I take off the foil and throw it out.
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -->The above statements may or not be true. ->Quote of the Moment : "Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie ----> PMs checked daily.
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Loop_Theorist
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: ajg2425]
#1227137 - 01/17/03 03:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tell me you did NOT just question Anno's methods...
-Loop
-------------------- Pack-tight, midnight, ship it to tha coast. Some take tha plane, you, you on tha boat, right beside tha money which right beside tha coke Passin by tha coastgaurd, right under their nose. To the US-HEY where anyone can getny, MIA all the way to New Your city, you a twenty now....
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SixCee
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Loop_Theorist]
#1227145 - 01/17/03 03:20 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Who me!? No not me! I swear you got the wrong guy! No its not me Anno please..no, no.......NNNNOOOOOOOOO, aaaaaaaaggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -->The above statements may or not be true. ->Quote of the Moment : "Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie ----> PMs checked daily.
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: SixCee]
#1227762 - 01/17/03 08:11 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, not you the reply wa to ajg2425.
Good luck with the sealed jars.
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happygrins
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1227805 - 01/17/03 08:38 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does this same rule apply when your spawning your Poo/Straw? Does having holes in your aluminum foil opposed to not having holes in the aluminum foil change colonization times?
--happygrins
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: happygrins]
#1227866 - 01/17/03 09:47 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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No. Aluminium foil put over anything provides enough gas exchange. I didn?t notice a difference between with or without holes.
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Anonymous
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1228136 - 01/18/03 04:33 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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8-12 days? what do you do to make that happen?
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: ] 1
#1230572 - 01/19/03 06:15 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I prepare a substrate with the correct moisture content, use a foil lid, inoculate with relatively fresh spores and incubate at 80?F.
Edited by Anno (01/19/03 09:03 AM)
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dr4g0n
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1230807 - 01/19/03 08:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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thanks 100x anno. I will definatly try this in the future as my Thai's stalled for no apperent reason. It seemed they had plenty of humidity, however they were completly sealed.
-------------------- Talk to my Aol Instant messenger robot, screen name YakSpuiT http://www.canivour.net/~yakspuit/
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dr4g0n
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: happygrins]
#1230809 - 01/19/03 08:18 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I do have a question however, aren't you worried about contams slipping in along with new air?
-------------------- Talk to my Aol Instant messenger robot, screen name YakSpuiT http://www.canivour.net/~yakspuit/
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BladeLSD
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: dr4g0n]
#1230815 - 01/19/03 08:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anno, I just innoculated my jars, and the lids are on fairly tight with a tinfoil layer over the lids, should I unscrew the lids a tad, and possibly remove the tape from the holes. The reason Im asking is because im not sure if your talking about 1/2 pint jars
-------------------- We might get glimpse's of objectivity every now, and then, but we're so inherently locked in our temporal and corporeal selves that we're irrevocably locked into subjectivity
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: dr4g0n]
#1230817 - 01/19/03 08:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, they are stopped by the vermiculite layer.
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: BladeLSD]
#1230830 - 01/19/03 08:29 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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>should I unscrew the lids a tad Yes.
> and possibly remove the tape from the holes. Yes.
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BladeLSD
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1230837 - 01/19/03 08:33 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your the best Anno , I heard the best way to unscrew the lids is to attach a piece of tape to the top, and the screw ring is this correct.
-------------------- We might get glimpse's of objectivity every now, and then, but we're so inherently locked in our temporal and corporeal selves that we're irrevocably locked into subjectivity
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: BladeLSD]
#1230850 - 01/19/03 08:40 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Frankly, I don?t know, I never used the 2 piece lids.
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BladeLSD
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1230872 - 01/19/03 08:53 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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its all good, you still get 5 shrooms from me.
-------------------- We might get glimpse's of objectivity every now, and then, but we're so inherently locked in our temporal and corporeal selves that we're irrevocably locked into subjectivity
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motaman
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1231032 - 01/19/03 10:25 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you Anno for posting this. Seeing how I am new to this hobby this has answered some of my questions. So seeing how this topic has already been started I hope you don't mind if I ask you or anyone else a question or two. I have some pint jars I innoculated with B+. I am using metal lids with the inners turned seal up They are on snug but not tight. There is 4 holes punched in top that were use for innoclulating. I currently have the holes covered with 3M Micropore tape(used for dressing wound and offers breathablilty. I think). They have been incubating for three days and now I see growth. Should I just remove the tape completely?
-------------------- http://heffter.org
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: motaman]
#1231185 - 01/19/03 11:53 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I?d leave it on for now, since it should provide some air exchange due to it structure, and the lids are inverted. Should the jars at some point stop growing without apparent reason, take the tape off. As I said, I had the best results with aluminum foil lids.
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motaman
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1231629 - 01/19/03 04:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks Anno.. I would of rathered used foil but was out at the time and all I had was 3m micropore tape.
-------------------- http://heffter.org
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Angry Mycologist
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Loop_Theorist]
#1231681 - 01/19/03 04:17 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tell me you did NOT just question Anno's methods...
Yea, I mean, it's not like we would want anybody thinking for themselves or anything
As far as gas exchange goes during colonization, I've had no problem with slow growth due to the extra layer of foil on top of the lid.
Also, I love the fact that they breath in oxygen and release carbon dioxide....sounds familiar. Symbiotic relationship indeed.
-------------------- The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato
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Alien
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
#1231699 - 01/19/03 04:21 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- -Alien
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motaman
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Alien]
#1231711 - 01/19/03 04:26 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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makes me wonder why i could't put a plant in my fruiting chamber.
-------------------- http://heffter.org
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deanofmean
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: motaman]
#1231732 - 01/19/03 04:33 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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who said you can't
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motaman
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: deanofmean]
#1231826 - 01/19/03 04:59 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I haven't seen anywhere saying you can. But it sure would even out the gas exchange Not just in the fruiting chamber Why couldn't I put a few heat loving plants in my incubator at night to help with the exchange.. Anno?
-------------------- http://heffter.org
Edited by motaman (01/19/03 05:04 PM)
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Bi0TeK
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Registered: 11/07/02
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Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1232082 - 01/19/03 06:21 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I Might get flamed here cos I've just skim read this post cos I'm very tired and want to get some sleep but I've ALWAYS used foil on my drinking glasses/ jars & have never used lids & have found that if you do use foil & stack your glasses/jars ontop of each other the jars ontop are ALWAYS the fastest to colonize. Just trying to prove Anno's point about air exchange. Goodnight !
-------------------- PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.
Edited by Bi0TeK (01/19/03 06:25 PM)
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: motaman]
#1232143 - 01/19/03 06:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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>Why couldn't I put a few heat loving plants in my incubator at night to help with the exchange
Plants convert CO2 and water into oxygen and sugars....when they have light. This process is called photosynthesis. The incubator shouldn?t have light. So this woudn?t really work well. Plants need some oxygen for themselves too, btw. Read http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/departments/eventscience/EBS.OS1_RS~DF.html http://www.hsv.k12.al.us/schools/middle/wtms/student/cell/cell_energy.html http://www.saburchill.com/chapters/summary02.html
Besides, the point is not that the oxygen isn?t available, it is there , in the normal air, to more than 20%, the problem is that it has to get to the mycelium, and it can?t get there, if the jar is sealed.
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PsiloKitten
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1232501 - 01/19/03 10:24 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Okay, I have a question on the inverse... during casing do you notice that alot of air is actually a detriment? I've found that the most tightly closed casings during regrow, turned out the best--
....but filter lids are key for jars, they work fantastic with the masking tape method described above.
--------------------
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BladeLSD
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Bi0TeK]
#1234947 - 01/20/03 06:17 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Couldnt I just skip the lids completly possibly add a slightly thicker dry verm and just let them sit in the incubator lidless, Theoretically wouldnt this provide the most amount of gas exchange.
-------------------- We might get glimpse's of objectivity every now, and then, but we're so inherently locked in our temporal and corporeal selves that we're irrevocably locked into subjectivity
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deanofmean
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: BladeLSD]
#1234982 - 01/20/03 06:38 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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that would be overkill, i think .and you might have to humidify your incubator .
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1235009 - 01/20/03 06:50 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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> I've found that the most tightly closed casings during regrow, turned out the best In the post casing - pre pinning phase the CO2 levels should be high. This is best achieved by simply covering the casing container with aluminum foil or similar. It will get some air exchange(same as the jars with the aluminum foil lid), but the CO2 level will be high. That?s what you want to achieve.
Edited by Anno (01/29/03 04:11 AM)
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PsiloKitten
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange *DELETED* [Re: Anno]
#1235022 - 01/20/03 06:56 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by PsiloKitten
--------------------
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1235035 - 01/20/03 07:05 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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You mean for the time after casing?
Well, if you seal the casing container, you will seal some fresh air in from outside?(at the top of the casing) Since you are only incubating the casing in the closed container for a couple of days, and the substrate is already colonized to a high degree, the oxygen enclosed in the container seems to suffice for the mycelium to permeate the casing.
It?s the same with sealed PF jars, they grow for some time, but at a certain moment they stall.
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1257485 - 01/29/03 04:09 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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TEST II : This time I took the same plastic containers, but fitted them with a polyfill filter. This is day 6 of colonization, look what a difference the air exchange makes!
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dankcrop
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1257534 - 01/29/03 04:38 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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If the polyfill gets wet while steaming (I have no pc) would that be a problem?
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ClosetCase
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1257580 - 01/29/03 05:05 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just to summerize (see if my thinking is correct):
The amount of gas exchange that the jars provide doesn't matter until there is a decent amount of growth (>20%)... sealed jars are ok for the beginning of colonization.
Then the mycelium start to consume the oxygen and change the ratio of co2/o2 inside the jar. This is when gas exchange becomes important, and jars that allow gas exchange colonize faster.
I am just trying to make everything perfectly clear 'cause i'm on my first grow with PF tek, and some of my jars have breathable tape over the holes and some have masking tape (ran out of breathable). I am considering taking the masking tape off and covering those ones with foil, but i want to wait since it is dry here and i am worried about the substrate drying out.
Thanks
-------------------- "as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.." "well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"
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bjkroll
Addict
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1257663 - 01/29/03 05:48 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmm I always take the foil off :\
-------------------- "Everybody who's famous sucked the dick to get where they are today. The only difference between us and them? We swallowed it." - Jimmy Urine
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sluglee
i am dino.
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1257751 - 01/29/03 06:13 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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i am very interested in those plastic containers.. what are they made of ? how did you sterilize them ?
-------------------- Slug Lee still shroomin' ...
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: dankcrop]
#1258031 - 01/29/03 07:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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>If the polyfill gets wet while steaming (I have no pc) would that be a problem? No, it dries in a matter of hours.
>The amount of gas exchange that the jars provide doesn't matter until there is a >decent amount of growth (>20%)... sealed jars are ok for the beginning of >colonization.Then the mycelium start to consume the oxygen and change the >ratio of co2/o2 inside the jar. This is when gas exchange becomes important, >and jars that allow gas exchange colonize faster. Yes, sounds about right.
>i am very interested in those plastic containers.. what are they made of ? Polypropylene.
> how did you sterilize them ? In the pressure cooker. It?s always a good idea of making a test run in the pressure cooker lbefore making a big batch, in case they do melt. As for those containers, I inoculated them by opening the lid and inoculating them with a syringe in front of a flow hood. But you could melt some holes in the lid before filling and inoculate them the "classical" way.
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teaker
monster
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1258062 - 01/29/03 08:02 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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what are the brand of those containers? and where did yo get them? those look like they would work better in my pc
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: teaker]
#1258497 - 01/29/03 10:28 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Edited by Anno (01/29/03 10:34 AM)
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1263835 - 01/30/03 11:22 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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One has to love polyfill ! Day 8:
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Anonymous
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1263862 - 01/30/03 11:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thoes are nice little containers. I'm sure anyone can find something similar in their local area.
Anon, do you only use thoes now or do you still use jars?
I'm nobody.
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Anno
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: ]
#1263865 - 01/30/03 11:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Both.
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mikejwill
dreamer
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1264053 - 01/31/03 01:31 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anno, you are so hot
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: mikejwill]
#1264068 - 01/31/03 01:38 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am, true , but the grl in my avatar is Audrey Tautou.
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BunBoy
Happy Person
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1264525 - 01/31/03 05:31 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Audrey Tautou. sigh....
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1267111 - 02/01/03 12:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hereby declare this cake colonized.
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TheWhiteRavens
Stranger
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1267558 - 02/01/03 07:41 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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they look so yummie.... lets just open them up and put some soy sauce on it and eatum... what do you say....
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Anno
Experimenter
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I don?t think eating vermiculite is the best thing to do...
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MeltingPenguin
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1269846 - 02/02/03 12:00 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree, its kinda nasty oh btw anno, i just watched Happenstance
that girl is really hot
-------------------- Growing anything is good for the soul
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Angry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting
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Re: The Importance of Gas Exchange [Re: Anno]
#1270499 - 02/02/03 07:22 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I don?t think eating vermiculite is the best thing to do...
If you think that's bad (which it is), I've accidently eaten perlite before. I do a good job when cleaning my mushrooms after harvest now
-------------------- The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato
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deprave
GrandmasterToker
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 366
Loc: DownUnder
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I love this post it got my friends jars growing again it should be in the faq
-------------------- NONE OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE I LIKE TO WRITE STORIES
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