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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?)
    #9709437 -

Let's say we're soulless. Then, essentially, we're reduced to the level of an animal. Our brains are more sophisticated, sure, although some species, like dolphins, approach our level.

Animals act on instinct. I call it a loop, because it goes in circles. Stimulus A leads to reaction B, always. Humans seem to be able to form more novel loops than most species, but that's the only clear difference I see. We still react fairly predictably to most stimuli. When the reactions are closely analyzed, you can usually find impracticalities or illogical (or baseless, or arbitrary, or etc.) thought processes behind them. We actually think a lot less, or about a lot less, than we think we do, if we think about it. Our reactions are created largely through instinct and environmental programming. This is where most arguments against free will come from.

I find this to actually be quite scary. I see it in myself and others all of the time now. It leaves me with an inhuman feeling, to think that we're basically a bunch of automatons living with our eyes closed. I have hard time taking all of our rules and conventions as seriously now as most find appropriate. Sure, there's some wisdom behind them, after all it got us this far, but I want to go to the next level. It's a limited way to live, I think. I just wish more people would come along for the ride with me, but that's what really scares me. Most people just don't seem to want to, or to care.

So, yeah, who agrees with me?

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9709478 -

Oh yeah, I wanted to mention that I believe that this all relates to a Nietzsche concept, eternal recurrence. Basically, according to Nietzsche, everything we do is bound to repeat itself endlessly. We already casually recognize this with axiom "history always repeats itself." Buddhists recognize this loop as well, through their beliefs about the universe, such as reincarnation.

As living organisms, we're all governed by chemical processes that all conform to the same unifying laws. This would, by definition, lead to repetitive action. Repetitive action drives me nuts. However, we can work against it through willful action, as we seem to have some freedom of action, even if it will always be limited in ways. With enough mental effort, we can break out of our cycles, or loops. Nature gave us some freedom of action, but it's our job to expand it further. I think, personally, this is the purpose of our lives, the answer to that question we all love to ask. But what do I know?

Edited by iamconfused (01/31/09 02:29 AM)

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9709650 -

iamconfused said:
Let's say we're soulless. Then, essentially, we're reduced to the level of an animal.




are you telling me we aren't animals?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: demiu5]
    #9709686 -

Quote:
are you telling me we aren't animals?


No, we're animals. I was emphasizing how often we don't fully appreciate just how similar to other 'mindless' animals we actually are.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9709696 -

What about the mindful animals?  I like to appreciate how similar I am to them.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9709919 -

Quote:
to think that we're basically a bunch of automatons living with our eyes closed.


what do you submit the alternate state to consist of... were we living with "open eyes"?

Quote:
I have hard time taking all of our rules and conventions as seriously now as most find appropriate. Sure, there's some wisdom behind them, after all it got us this far, but I want to go to the next level. It's a limited way to live, I think.


You think.
If we are limited to the loop, where does this place "the next level?" And how can one fathom its limits?
Is this merely another part of the loop, or do you admit there is a possible way out of the loop?

:peace:


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: figmentfragment]
    #9710394 -

Let's say we're soulless.

Ok. This changes nothing.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Bernackums]
    #9710415 -

I completely agree with you, and I almost wish I didn't think about these things. I constantly feel like I'm in a loop. No matter how hard I try to tell myself, "ok, this day's gonna be different. I'm going to react differently to stimulus A," I always end up reacting the same way to everything. I know this type of thought has the potential to break us out of "the loop," but it won't unless more people realize it. Right now, I don't see many people willing to liberate themselves. It's like they want to stay plugged in to the matrix, so to speak.


--------------------

How do I feel? I feel Shpongled!

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) *DELETED* [Re: Bernackums]
    #9711113 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9711154 -

iamconfused said:
So, yeah, who agrees with me?


Not me. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9711922 -

Quote:
what do you submit the alternate state to consist of... were we living with "open eyes"?


Accepting the full ramifications of what living inside of "loops" means for us.

Quote:
If we are limited to the loop, where does this place "the next level?" And how can one fathom its limits?
Is this merely another part of the loop, or do you admit there is a possible way out of the loop?


Well, IMO, we're stuck in loops in so much that it's the way our minds inherently work. We understand the world through cause and effect mechanisms. It's the repetitive nature we allow ourselves to fall into, repeating the same loops over and over without properly scrutinizing their effectiveness, that I'd like to get away from. The only way out of the loop is 'madness', in that our thoughts could no longer follow a logically constructed series of causes and effects, which doesn't really sound desirable to me. I believe "the next level" would be found by consciously arranging our minds into a series of more rational loops, which would then lead to a clearer understanding of the world and more rational action. We are automatons for the most part, basically, but we can at least change our programming. That ability to change our programming is what I consider to be the source of our concept of the "soul", even if the soul doesn't exist as metaphysical entity.

Now, one could ask, how could we presume what's rational? Well, I believe in our rational powers, as much as I believe in our ability to tell that the sun is yellow.

Edited by iamconfused (01/31/09 04:02 PM)

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9711951 -

If you are able to step back and look at desires and urges that pull you into static / looped behavior you can begin to make an effort to overcome them.

Most people and perhaps all animals do not take the time to examine the loops they are stuck in and try to break free.

I have been having some success in "lucid living" lately, although all it took was 1 day of feeling ill, and I spent the whole last week living as an automaton.

Oh well, time to start rebuilding my Will again.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #9712320 -

Lakefingers said:
Bernackums said:
Let's say we're soulless.

Ok. This changes nothing.


Let's say everything is politics. Everything is water. Everything is fire. Everything is gender issues...


:wink: :thumbup:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (01/31/09 04:51 PM)

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Bernackums]
    #9712374 -

Quote:
Let's say everything is politics. Everything is water. Everything is fire. Everything is gender issues...


Let's say everything is semantics.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9712411 -

I wonder why you want to escape the loop? If that is what we are inherently from birth why escape it? Being aware of the loops we are in is one thing but where do we all of a sudden get this mission to break out of the loop or change it somehow? One change, making the loop more efficient, would be good and I would assume that the most successful humans do this, though perhaps this process also happens inherently?:confused:

We are always trying to get better at reacting to our daily stimuli, loops. Just look at society and the way it is made up. We dedicate most of our early lives to improving our reaction to certain stimuli. They can be categorized perhaps as the mental and physical. Schools help to train the youth of our world to react better and improve the loops so to speak. We learn math, history, science, language, philosophy. If you are afraid that we might not be as smart as we often think, rest assured that we are way of a hell of a lot smarter than any other animal on this planet. Schools also provide things like physical education classes, recess, and organized sports. Clubs of other sorts like cheese club, drama, debate and speech as well as others improve our mental abilities in other ways beyond the normal curriculum. After school we get these things called careers. Usually we start out at the bottom and work our way up. Often  we have 4-5 or more careers in a lifetime. As we improve in each of these types of activities starting with school and carrying on through our careers we are bound up by society to constantly improve our loops. Everyone's loops are improving and 99% of people don't even notice.

So just chill out man and smoke a bowl.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: SlashOZ]
    #9712495 -

Quote:
I wonder why you want to escape the loop?


Because our current way of thinking leads to an endless cycle of rise and falls. Right now, we're societally on the upswing (at least those of us comfortable enough to post on message boards, I can't speak for the rest) so it holds that the prevailing view is optimistic towards traditional modes of thinking. But I think we're still largely making the same mistakes all other grand societies have. I'm not saying there's about to be some immediate downfall. Nobody can know that. But like you basically said, are system is far from efficient.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: SlashOZ]
    #9712504 -

SlashOZ said:
I wonder why you want to escape the loop? If that is what we are inherently from birth why escape it? Being aware of the loops we are in is one thing but where do we all of a sudden get this mission to break out of the loop or change it somehow?


I want to escape negative loops to start building more positive ones.  I'd rather be "stuck in" a habit of healthy eating, exercise, meditation, and work, rather than a habit of eating crap, inactivity, lack of mindfulness, and no productivity.

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9712567 -

Amber_Glow said:
If you are able to step back and look at desires and urges that pull you into static / looped behavior you can begin to make an effort to overcome them.

Most people and perhaps all animals do not take the time to examine the loops they are stuck in and try to break free.

I have been having some success in "lucid living" lately, although all it took was 1 day of feeling ill, and I spent the whole last week living as an automaton.

Oh well, time to start rebuilding my Will again.


Good luck, I had a similar occurence and I still feel "off track" :rolleyes:

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9712572 -

Maybe the Beatles will make people like my ideas, yesyesyes:

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Re: A horrifying thought (who else feels this way?) [Re: iamconfused]
    #9713358 -

I agree. We are doomed to the loop as long as we haven't found God, aka the source of all consciousness. Read up on yoga its not a religion. Its how you control the loops to your absolute advantage. This way you can spread the dharma(truth, love) and attain raja, which means to shine in all you do/are. Yoga (but mainly Ayurveda) is a way to discover what it's all about.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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