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Anybody watched Expelled yet??
    #9607452 -

So what do you guys think of Ben Stein's documentary entitled "Expelled"?


I watched it and it's pretty damn good. It reaffirmed my faith that The Universe was really designed, or engineered.


Thanks


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9608081 -

Did you notice how it used the fallacy of the excluded middle by pretending that atheistic evolution or intelligent design are the only two options?  Was there a single interview with a theistic evolutionist like Francis Collins?


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9608102 -

I have not seen it, but how did it purport to refute atheistic evolution?


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9608649 -

I made a thread about it in P&S and apparently some of it has been debunked. The truth is we don't have evidence for either school of thought, yet. Neither is real science, both are theories. I'd like to think that the sheer complexity of a single cell is the product of intelligent design. It's a shame people mix up ID with creationism.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9608657 -

Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Neither is real science, both are theories.


Atheistic evolution is a scientific theory, certainly.  Intelligent design is not.

The only thing that is required for a scientific theory is that it be testable.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9608674 -

deCypher said:
Atheistic evolution is a scientific theory, certainly.  Intelligent design is not.


Evolution is a scientific theory, with compelling evidence to support it.  Atheistic evolution is a metaphysical assumption which cannot be falsified, and thus is not a scientific theory.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: Silversoul]
    #9608686 -

By atheistic evolution I am referring to evolution that does not assume the interfering hand of a metaphysical being.  This is testable and therefore is a scientific theory.

As for the theory of evolution along with a determined stance that God does not exist; of course this is spirituality and not science.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9609350 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Neither is real science, both are theories.


Atheistic evolution is a scientific theory, certainly.  Intelligent design is not.

The only thing that is required for a scientific theory is that it be testable.


How can evolution be tested and repeated? Simply looking at fossil records and current species could prove either.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9609375 -

Well, in the first place, it's not technically correct to say that a theory can be proven.  What we can say is which theory best fits the evidence at hand, and which theories may be disproven given the data.

At any rate, evolution is not currently testable--but the point is that it potentially could be, if we had a laboratory capable of observing genetic changes over millions of years.  Testing a hypothesis involving the intervention of higher beings is not.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9609673 -

I thought it was interesting how he referred to scientists that tried to mimic the Earth's early environment unsuccessfully.

I think another main point of the documentary was to show that people confuse ID with Creationism. I do think things evolve, but Darwinism can't explain where life came from. I think that's where ID should be debated. I personally believe that evolution is in the blueprints of ID.

I thought the most interesting part of all was that the most simple forms of life require a minimum of 250 proteins to live. Was that debunked anywhere? I chuckled at the euphemism that tried to describe just how IMPOSSIBLE it would be to have these 250 proteins just "self-generate".


--------------------
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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9609783 -

mushroomhunter10 said:
I think another main point of the documentary was to show that people confuse ID with Creationism. I do think things evolve, but Darwinism can't explain where life came from.


That's because Darwinian evolution isn't meant to explain such a thing.  That's a field called abiogenesis.  There is less agreement among scientists as to what caused abiogenesis, but it is a separate area of study from Darwinian evolution.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9609904 -

deCypher said:
Well, in the first place, it's not technically correct to say that a theory can be proven.  What we can say is which theory best fits the evidence at hand, and which theories may be disproven given the data.

At any rate, evolution is not currently testable--but the point is that it potentially could be, if we had a laboratory capable of observing genetic changes over millions of years.  Testing a hypothesis involving the intervention of higher beings is not.


It sounds just as farfetched to me to say you can "potentially" test a hypothesis of millions of years of evolution, then it does to test the intervention of higher beings. The current scientific paradigm just rules everything out that isn't Darwinian mutation. I think very soon we will be communicating with higher beings, for a minority already are.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9609939 -

I'm not one to dispute the existence of higher beings; I've had many an experience involving entities and likewise metaphysical beings to be capable of denying them.

However, it's another thing to say that the existence of a higher being is a scientific theory.  First-hand experience is not verifiable, and by definition any mental experience one has of communication or the like will be subjective and therefore not testable.

If a higher being is able to demonstrably affect objective reality (leaving aside the question of whether this exists for the moment, heheh), then science will be able to address the existence or nonexistence of such.  As is, it's simply not science.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9611307 -

I've always thought the pursuit of truth is what 99% of science is.


Regarding Darwinism being "testable" and ID not:

There is also evidence to justify the investigation of intelligent design. See there is a thing called a Flagellum. Now this Flagellum is probably one of hundreds of other reasons that ID should be investigated more thoroughly. At least in my opinion, the Flagellum is to say the least, utterly astounding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flagellum_base_diagram.svg

Tell me the above link wasn't designed by an engineer.


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9611411 -

it is possible to observe evolution in the span of a human generation. Before the industrial revolution, white moths would blend in with the trees, and black moths of the same species would be eaten and picked off. during and after, there was so much ash in the air that the trees were darkened, and then the reverse was true. Natural selection at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

people also thought the eye was something that had to be designed due to its complexity, but this can be refuted.



you cannot look at the end product of something and judge its complexity without seeing the steps it took to get there.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: Green_T]
    #9611722 -

I'm not really doubting that things evolved and still do.
The whole point is that nothing but evolution is the gospel. Especially in the educational systems of The World. What happened before evolution? Isn't it a valid question?

As I stated. I believe all of life was designed to evolve. I just want to shake the hand of the designer and maybe ask a few hundred thousand questions. :shrug:


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
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MY TRADES

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9613384 -

Mulling over the specifics of theories and testable predictions does not due away with the overwhelming amount of common sense experiences and observations that show life, on multiple levels, has been changing and continues to change.

If your rationality leads you to conclude the complexity and nature of this system is being driven by some "higher power" (whatever that may be), then arrive to this belief with the understanding that it is inextricably linked to your human consciousness, which is prone to  numerable errors and assumptions... and like everything else under the sun, still subject to change.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: Arden]
    #9613675 -

Actually, one of my biggest problems with Intelligent Design is more theological than scientific.  ID favors order over novelty, and only likes to look at certain spots in evolution where things appear, according to them, to have "miraculously" appeared.  The rest of evolution is little more than a nuisance to them.

I don't believe in a God who makes occasional cameo appearances.  I believe in a God who is ever-present in each moment.  I like the Whiteheadian idea of a God who works persuasively rather than coercively.  In this model, every occasion in the universe, even an electron or proton, possesses some degree of intentionality.  But this intentionality would be confined to prehending past occasions if not for God creating opportunities for novelty.  Without God, there is no novelty or progress.  Thus, rather than intervening in evolution, God is the very cause of evolution.  And not just biological evolution, but cosmic evolution, cultural evolution, etc.


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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9613880 -

To think the universe is designed is a paradox because who designed the designer?

Its the old "which came first - chicken or egg?" question.

Thats doesn't mean I accept randomness as a complete theory for existence either.  Whatever reasons if any for existence of our universe is something far beyond my monkey brain can think of.

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Re: Anybody watched Expelled yet?? [Re: Ego Death]
    #9619677 -

Ego Death said:
Whatever reasons if any for existence of our universe is something far beyond my monkey brain can think of.



:smile:

Yeah same with me too. Let's just hope that in death our questions are answered.


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
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Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
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MY TRADES

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