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Re: Atheism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4870623 -

Quote:
The more you understand the significance of evolution, the more you are pushed away from the agnostic position and towards atheism


while that rings true for the theory of evolution, or even on a broader concept of "how did we get here?," the denial of a diety still does not explain anything, only rules one answer out.

maybe im just caught between being an atheist / agnostic.

(to me) Atheist seems to mean "god didn't do that"

(to me) Agnostic seems to mean "i don't know what did that"

the two still appear compatible, but i could be wrong in that assumption.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Atheism [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #4870716 -

Microcosmatrix said:
I believe that it is just as foolish to decide that something does not exist just because you have not personally seen or experienced it as it is to decide that something DOES exist that you have never seen nor experienced.


That was well said and pretty much how I navigate my way.

What would you say about many who told you that they traveled the globe and made maps of it and showed you pretty much the same thing. Would you believe those land masses were there even if you've never been to them to experience them for yourself?

I've never seen or experienced China for myself, but enough people have taken images they can show me and verify that is does indeed exists and so I believe it does.

Sometimes, I think the same goes with some of this esoteric stuff. If enough people travel in spirit to other realms of conscious existence and come back with descriptions of the same images and similar experiences I may take some things for probably being there that I myself haven't seen or experienced. If in question of it's validity or curious I go exploring for myself.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Atheism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4871208 -

itstarssaddam said:
So because we are confused and awestruck by the nature of our universe, we should attribute its qualities to a made up character?

In response to the initial post, I am an atheist. This is one of the few labels I am willing to stick on myself.

?I suspect the reason is that most people ... have a residue of feeling that Darwinian evolution isn't quite big enough to explain everything about life. All I can say as a biologist is that the feeling disappears progressively the more you read about and study what is known about life and evolution. I want to add one thing more. The more you understand the significance of evolution, the more you are pushed away from the agnostic position and towards atheism. Complex, statistically improbable things are by their nature more difficult to explain than simple, statistically probable things.?

?An atheist before Darwin could have said, following Hume: "I have no explanation for complex biological design. All I know is that God isn't a good explanation, so we must wait and hope that somebody comes up with a better one." I can't help feeling that such a position, though logically sound, would have left one feeling pretty unsatisfied, and that although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.? --Richard Dawkins



why do you keep posting these quotes that are so easily refuted? the arugment that once you study science you will see that God doesn't exist is one of the worst arguments ever. how do you explain the fact that 60% of natrual scientists believe in God?

Edited by Deviate (10/30/05 03:16 PM)

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Re: Atheism [Re: Deviate]
    #4871304 -

Nice reply!

The thing is there are also people who believe in some creative intelligence force that could have set the events of the Big Bang into play.

Darwinisms doesn't cancel out the possibility of a creative intelligent designer that may have designed the Big Bang and the evolution that followed.

Science HAS canceled out the literal interpretation of the Bible that says the earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago and that the first female was made from a males rib.

The catholic Chruch has been making admisions lately that it was all written to be metaphor in the first place.

I haven't met ANYONE in my 37 years of life, who took any of that as a literal event anyway.

Saying you don't beleive in a creator is being a part of a belief group the same as those that do. Saying you don't know what to believe because their is no objective proof for it either way is also being a part of a belief group.

There is no way out of being a part of a belief group about the IT or not IT or don't know what to believe about the IT.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Atheism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4871387 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Darwinisms doesn't cancel out the possibility of a creative intelligent designer that may have designed the Big Bang and the evolution that followed.


Darwinism also doesn't cancel out the possibility that I may have 3 heads, but everyday of my life so far I have found myself with just this one. Same deal.

Edited by itstarssaddam (10/30/05 05:06 PM)

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Re: Atheism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4871425 -

Saying you don't know what to believe because their is no objective proof for it either way is also being a part of a belief group.

I don't agree. You can only be part of a belief group if you affirm a belief. Otherwise, you're not part of a belief group.


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Re: Atheism [Re: Deviate]
    #4871498 -

Deviate said:
why do you keep posting these quotes that are so easily refuted? the arugment that once you study science you will see that God doesn't exist is one of the worst arguments ever. how do you explain the fact that 60% of natrual scientists believe in God?


How do you explain (or where did you find) such a blatantly incorrect statistic? That's like saying that 60% of pharmacists believe in faith healing.

?Are science and religion converging? No. There are modern scientists whose words sound religious but whose beliefs, on close examination, turn out to be identical to those of other scientists who straightforwardly call themselves atheists.? --Richard Dawkins

You yourself were saying just the other day that you saw no reason to differentiate between "God" and biological intricacy, but then you went back and started defending another poster who was referring to a seperate creator. I then proceeded to ask you to clarify whether you were speaking about God metaphorically, or actually claiming the existence of a seperate being, and you ceased to reply. Let's clear this up once and for all.

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Re: Atheism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4871527 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4852570/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

itstarssaddam said:
So how do you differ between god and intricate biological structure?


Deviate said:
why is there a need to differentiate?


?Are science and religion converging? No. There are modern scientists whose words sound religious but whose beliefs, on close examination, turn out to be identical to those of other scientists who straightforwardly call themselves atheists.? --Richard Dawkins

^Perhaps this quote won't be so "easily refuted."

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Re: Atheism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4871572 -

itstarssaddam said:
Deviate said:
why do you keep posting these quotes that are so easily refuted? the arugment that once you study science you will see that God doesn't exist is one of the worst arguments ever. how do you explain the fact that 60% of natrual scientists believe in God?


How do you explain (or where did you find) such a blatantly incorrect statistic? That's like saying that 60% of pharmacists believe in faith healing.

?Are science and religion converging? No. There are modern scientists whose words sound religious but whose beliefs, on close examination, turn out to be identical to those of other scientists who straightforwardly call themselves atheists.? --Richard Dawkins

You yourself were saying just the other day that you saw no reason to differentiate between "God" and biological intricacy, but then you went back and started defending another poster who was referring to a seperate creator. I then proceeded to ask you to clarify whether you were speaking about God metaphorically, or actually claiming the existence of a seperate being, and you ceased to reply. Let's clear this up once and for all.


i found the statistic here:
http://godolhador.blogspot.com/2005/08/scientists-belief-in-god-varies.html



as far as God being a seperate being clarify what you mean by "seperate being". my beliefs are probably best summed up by this quote from the thread containing 40 verses i posted today:

"
2. All religions postulate the three fundamentals, the world, the soul, and God, but it is only the one Reality that manifests Itself as these three. One can say, 'The three are really three' only so long as the ego lasts. Therefore, to inhere in one's own Being, where the 'I', or ego, is dead, is the perfect State."

Edited by Deviate (10/30/05 04:56 PM)

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Re: Atheism [Re: Deviate]
    #4871612 -

Deviate said:
i found the statistic here:
http://godolhador.blogspot.com/2005/08/scientists-belief-in-god-varies.html


Oh my...

Quote:
as far as God being a seperate being clarify what you mean by "seperate being". my beliefs are probably best summed up by this quote from the thread containing 40 verses i posted today:


If you refer to God metaphorically like you claimed to in the aforementioned thread, then you are simply putting a name on the awe-inspiring properties of the universe in which we exist.

If you refer to God as the creator, you are suggesting that there is an omniscient figure seperate from the reality which we experience (he has to be seperate because there is nothing here to suggest his presence).

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Re: Atheism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4871691 -

itstarssaddam said:
Deviate said:
i found the statistic here:
http://godolhador.blogspot.com/2005/08/scientists-belief-in-god-varies.html


Oh my...

Quote:
as far as God being a seperate being clarify what you mean by "seperate being". my beliefs are probably best summed up by this quote from the thread containing 40 verses i posted today:


If you refer to God metaphorically like you claimed to in the aforementioned thread, then you are simply putting a name on the awe-inspiring properties of the universe in which we exist.

If you refer to God as the creator, you are suggesting that there is an omniscient figure seperate from the reality which we experience (he has to be seperate because there is nothing here to suggest his presence).


the quote explained that the one Reality manifests as the trinity of soul, world and God. what do you mean there is nothing here to suggest his presense? there is reality which suggests the presense of reality. to know one's identity with reality is to know God. this is known as self-realization or by many other names. prior to self realization everything can be understood in terms of the soul relating to God. this is a complex topic and if you want a better explanation i suggest you ask markosthegnostic.

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Re: Atheism [Re: exclusive58]
    #4871720 -

exclusive58 said:
Saying you don't know what to believe because their is no objective proof for it either way is also being a part of a belief group.

I don't agree. You can only be part of a belief group if you affirm a belief. Otherwise, you're not part of a belief group.


Then you're a part of a group that beleives not to affirm a beleif either way. The group beleif is that it makes no sense to affirm one or that there is no reason one should feel they have to affirm one.

It all gets ridiculous after a while. I beleive in Awe! :lol:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Atheism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4872284 -

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
    exclusive58 said:
    Saying you don't know what to believe because their is no objective proof for it either way is also being a part of a belief group.


    I don't agree. You can only be part of a belief group if you affirm a belief. Otherwise, you're not part of a belief group.




Then you're a part of a group that beleives not to affirm a beleif either way. The group beleif is that it makes no sense to affirm one or that there is no reason one should feel they have to affirm one.


:thumbdown:  :frown:

Quote:
Belief: What one thinks is true, what one holds is more probable than not.


if you hold that you do not know what is true, it is not a belief.  running circles around this argument is cute and everything, but please leave it alone before my head explodes.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Atheism [Re: kotik]
    #4877184 -

i don't know kotik, i've arguered with agnostics who seemed to have very firms beliefs. they maintained that there was not enough information to determine whether or not God existed and therefore it was irrational to believe he did or did not exist. that sounds like a belief to me.

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Re: Atheism [Re: kotik]
    #4877741 -

"but again even if you were to send electricity to someone's brain after they were dead, it would not bring them back to life."

Once a cell is denatured, it cannot be revived. Just like you cannot unfry an egg.

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Re: Atheism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4877748 -

Here is my view on Theology, I think its the only reasonable position to take...
"If you think you know WHATS REALLY GOING ON you are probably full of shit."

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Re: Atheism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4878472 -

Yes, we could have been created by something from another world, but then, where did that creature and world come from? Sooner or later this "divinity" you folks are backing up is going to diminish and pure science is going to come into play. It's like if I create a new world right now with different life. Would that make me divine? No, that just makes me one hell of a scientist, and trust me, there would still be absolutely nothing divine about me.

I can make up any asinine theory that has no evidence and cannot be disproven, but that certainly does not mean it should be thought of as being potentially true. It just means "damn, that kid's got some whacked imagination." We certainly shouldn't look at is as being potentially true.

I'm sure you still to this day don't believe everything everyone tells you that can't be disproven, so why live a fallacy with taking up religion/God? It just doesn't make sense.

gettinjiggywithit said:
What would you say about many who told you that they traveled the globe and made maps of it and showed you pretty much the same thing. Would you believe those land masses were there even if you've never been to them to experience them for yourself?


Well, for one, he actually has been there, and it would be possible for me to go myself if I was that intent. And for two, none of the preachers who preach God have ever seen or heard God. So that moots out your first point.

Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:I've never seen or experienced China for myself, but enough people have taken images they can show me and verify that is does indeed exists and so I believe it does.


Pictures, people actually seeing China, and the fact that we can go to China ourselves and then come back and talk about it with others is enough proof for me to know something exists. Can I do any of the above with God/Heaven? Your logic has as much holes in it as Swiss cheese. Second point now rendered moot.

I'm sure you've never seen either God or China, but the Chinese guy from China would still have a lot more credibility than you debating the existence of a higher being since he's actually seen the place and can prove it exists. You only go by lack of evidence.

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Re: Atheism [Re: BlasphemousNoob]
    #4879178 -

what is going on here ?

blaspho said:
You only go by lack of evidence.
The means for astral travels or similar methods to spiritually ways towards god can be learned.

I think some are in the wrong forum here ? Or have the rules changed again?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Atheism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4879280 -

Yes, we could have been created by something from another world, but then, where did that creature and world come from?

almost all religions i know of say God always was.

Sooner or later this "divinity" you folks are backing up is going to diminish and pure science is going to come into play. It's like if I create a new world right now with different life. Would that make me divine? No, that just makes me one hell of a scientist, and trust me, there would still be absolutely nothing divine about me.

but if one of your propeties was unconditional love it and you were able to create a universe of untold beauty as God has done it would make you divine.

I can make up any asinine theory that has no evidence and cannot be disproven, but that certainly does not mean it should be thought of as being potentially true. It just means "damn, that kid's got some whacked imagination." We certainly shouldn't look at is as being potentially true.

why? everything is potentially true.

I'm sure you still to this day don't believe everything everyone tells you that can't be disproven, so why live a fallacy with taking up religion/God? It just doesn't make sense.

i don't believe in God because he can't be disproven. i believe in God because of my experiences of God.

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Re: Atheism [Re: BlasphemousNoob]
    #4887468 -

I'm an atheist, and i don't blindly follow scientists, priests, nor any other self-proclaimed 'expert'... as a scientist i know that there are many things which we do not know, and as a philosopher i know that there are many things which are not understood... this does not detract from my faith in that which we do know, and things we hold as truths... the main argument from the deists is that science does not explain everything, therefore religion is superior... yet religion explains nothing, it only serves to stifle debate about the true nature of things...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:

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