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Sophistic Radiance
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atheism is an ugly thing 3
#14227406 - 04/02/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is it just me, or do apostates from the more fundamentalist strains of Christianity remain every bit as bigoted and selfish as the fundamentalists taught them to be? They throw out the baby but not the bathwater.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Kickle
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Humanity is the ugly thing, specifics be damned.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Shroomerette
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Is it just me, or do apostates from the more fundamentalist strains of Christianity remain every bit as bigoted and selfish as the fundamentalists taught them to be? They throw out the baby but not the bathwater.
It's just you. Sounds like you are bigoted towards atheism.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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Sophistic Radiance
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Not really, I was raised atheist and I strongly believe you don't need to be religious to have morals, but I've talked to a lot of former-fundamentalists-now-atheists who seem to reinforce the idea that you need religion to be moral.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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meatcakeman
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what is religion but an identifiable confection of personal specifics? fundamentalism adheres to such policies in order to conceive the collective. without the collective masses, religion no longer is an institution, but a perspective of belief; there is power in numbers.
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Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14227468 - 04/02/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If that's true, then atheism is a religion too, but I get shouted down whenever I try to point this out.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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meatcakeman
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of course atheism is a religion. but, luckily, in such a religion, you become the church, the pastor, and the disciple. this creates a generalized relativity amongst the group of followers based on individualistic beliefs. by doing so, this system is less formidable as a collective, which creates a stark contrast comparatively speaking in relation to other religions. this might confuse some individuals into thinking that it lacks any familiarized resemblances to religion to constitute it as a religion.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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It is the imposition of a particular belief that could be viewed as ugly, the belief itself is interchangeable. As, it seems, no one knows definitively what Life is, to assert that one person is wrong (or right) is closed minded, imo. Spreading your belief(s) should not be a matter of forcing ideas on another but simply living your life as best you can (if you want to) and allowing others to approach you if they so please.
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: WScott] 1
#14227550 - 04/02/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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down with the church!

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Hasta siempre, comandante.
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blewmeanie




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Atheism isn't a thing, it's the absence of something. Atheists are just people.
If they're former "fundamentalists" yeah, they're probably gonna be kinda douche. Otherwise they wouldn't have ever been fundamentalists to begin with.
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Silversoul
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I think you need to differentiate between atheism and anti-theism. There's a difference between those who personally see no reason to believe in God, and those who feel like they have to shove their "rational" views down everyone's throat. I even know some atheists who are actually fascinated with religion. Anyway, I'd say that both theists and atheists can be overly dogmatic and pushy, and the assholes on both sides are quick to condemn what they don't understand.
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microdotty
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Silversoul] 1
#14230283 - 04/03/11 09:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Jesus is real! This is a pic of the cloth that covered Jesus's body after he was crucified, it can still be seen today!


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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Do you really not understand why atheists hate religion so much? Do you honestly believe that their hate is not justified? 
Quote:
meatcakeman said: of course atheism is a religion.
No it isn't.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Toe_Jam
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 3
#14231040 - 04/03/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's funny that the tendencies of EXTREME fundamentalist christians (creationists and such) are virtually indistinguishable from those of EXTREME atheists or EXTREME anything really. It's just one says black, the other brown, another white, etc.
-------------------- God lay his finger at the Mouth of the Serpent March 1984   A pleasing land of drowsy head it was, Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye, And of gay castles in the clouds that pass, For ever flushing round a summer sky. -Castle of Indolence
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Poid
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Toe_Jam]
#14231048 - 04/03/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Religion is the bane of humanity, it's no wonder some people are so militant against it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 2
#14231171 - 04/03/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I just don't think it's wise to blame the excuses used, rather than the humans themselves, for the atrocities committed by humans. It shifts blame and obscures the real problems at the heart of the matter. The fact that all of the worst genocides of the 20th century were committed in the absence of serious religiosity leads me to suspect religion is being used by antitheists as a scapegoat, whether they know it or not.
Hitler exterminated millions of Jews, and although he professed the Christian faith publicly, he was privately areligious. He actually lamented that the Muslim armies had not taken Europe and that he was saddled with a "beggar's religion" like Christianity. There was no religious motivation for his extermination campaign. There's even less religion involved for Mao, who starved no less than 45 million people to death in forced collectivization campaigns. In this case, the atrocity was actually committed by an avowed antitheist. If you can consider events such as these and still hold religion responsible for humanity's problems, I just don't understand.
Quote:
Kickle said: Humanity is the ugly thing, specifics be damned.
Edited by Tchan909 (04/03/11 02:03 PM)
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CMACD
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IF ATHEISM IS A RELIGION THEN....
unemployment is a career
bald is a hair colour
your bare torso is a type of shirt
the power turned off is a TV channel
transparent is a colour
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Tony
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: CMACD] 1
#14231346 - 04/03/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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No one, not even an atheist, questions being conscious, even though there is no (specific) evidence for it, yet it is not called a religion or a belief to say that I'm conscious, just no one seems to know what that means (specifically), except maybe a really stubborn ego.
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oxalic32


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: CMACD] 1
#14231357 - 04/03/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
CMACD said: IF ATHEISM IS A RELIGION THEN....
unemployment is a career
bald is a hair colour
your bare torso is a type of shirt
the power turned off is a TV channel
transparent is a colour
Have you read The Myth of Religious Neutrality?
Quote:
The first part of Clouser's Myth argues that a religious belief is any belief about the divine or any belief about how humans are related to the divine. His definition of "divine" is anything that has the status of not being dependent on anything else.
Atheism is a religion in the sense that it places something as non-depend.
Clouser's definition of Religion is the most robust i have seen. It is not the same definition we all use, but it is the most accurate.
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Poid
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Tony]
#14231821 - 04/03/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I just don't think it's wise to blame the excuses used, rather than the humans themselves, for the atrocities committed by humans.
By this (retarded) logic, we can't blame Islam for the erection of mosques. 
Quote:
Tchan909 said: It shifts blame and obscures the real problems at the heart of the matter.
You're saying that religion is not a real problem? 
What is the heart of the matter?
Quote:
Tchan909 said: The fact that all of the worst genocides of the 20th century were committed in the absence of serious religiosity leads me to suspect religion is being used by antitheists as a scapegoat, whether they know it or not. Hitler exterminated millions of Jews, and although he professed the Christian faith publicly, he was privately areligious. He actually lamented that the Muslim armies had not taken Europe and that he was saddled with a "beggar's religion" like Christianity. There was no religious motivation for his extermination campaign. There's even less religion involved for Mao, who starved no less than 45 million people to death in forced collectivization campaigns. In this case, the atrocity was actually committed by an avowed antitheist. If you can consider events such as these and still hold religion responsible for humanity's problems, I just don't understand.
Wow, so just because some atrocities were not committed in the name of religion, you think religion is not a problem?
Quote:
Kickle said: Humanity is the ugly thing, specifics be damned.
Why damn the specifics? How about holding people and groups of people responsible for what they do? 
Quote:
Tony said: No one, not even an atheist, questions being conscious, even though there is no (specific) evidence for it...
No specific evidence for being conscious? 
Quote:
Tony said: ...yet it is not called a religion or a belief to say that I'm conscious...
It is called a belief.
Quote:
Tony said: ...just no one seems to know what that means (specifically), except maybe a really stubborn ego.
This is like how people know that 2+2=4; they don't know the complicated mathematics which explains exactly how or why 2+2=4, but they know nonetheless.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14231862 - 04/03/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are systemic issues with the way that human beings address problems and regard one another and themselves. Religious violence is a manifestation of these issues, not of an ancient book.
I find the argument against religion from antitheism to be baffling, in fact! By blaming religions for inspiring people to commit atrocities, are you not embracing polytheism? Theism is inescapable. You have to make it your tool or it will do the same to you.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (04/03/11 04:23 PM)
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Poid
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Religiously motivated violence isn't the only problem with religion, and ancient books don't = religion; religious people = religion.
You really have a problem with holding certain ancient religious books, and certain religious people (i.e. certain religions) accountable for religiously motivated violence?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
Quote:
Excerpt K 2:178-179 Set 1, Count 1+2 [2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves. Excerpt K 2:190-191 Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. Excerpt K 2:193-194 Set 3, Count 5+6 [193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you... Excerpt K 2:216-218 Set 4, Count 7-9 [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you...[2.217]... fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter...persecution is graver than slaughter... [2.218]...strove hard in the way of Allah... Excerpt K 2:244 Set 5, Count 10 ...fight in the way of Allah Excerpt K 3:121-126 Set 6, Count 11-16 [3.121]...to lodge the believers in encampments for war...[3.122] When two parties from among you had determined that they should show cowardice [about Jihad]...[3.123]...Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr...[3.124]...[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels. [3.126] ...victory is only from Allah... Excerpt K 3:140-143 Set 7, Count 17-20 [3.140] If a wound has afflicted you (at [the Battle of] Uhud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you...[3.141] ...that He [Allah] may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings. [3.142] Yusuf Ali: Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without God testing those of you who fought hard (in His Cause) and remained steadfast? [3.143] Pickthall: And verily ye used to wish for death before ye met it (in the field). Now ye have seen it [death] with your eyes! Excerpt K 3:146 Set 8, Count 21 Yusuf Ali: How many of the prophets fought (in Allah's way) [Jihad], and with them (fought) large bands of godly men? But they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's way [lost a battle], nor did they weaken (in will) nor give in. And Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [in Jihad]. Excerpt K 3:152-158 Set 9, Count 22-28 [3.152]...you slew them by His [Allah's] permission [during a Jihad battle]...[3.153] Pickthall: ...the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight)...that which ye missed [war spoils]...[3.154]...They say: Had we any hand in the affair, we would not have been slain here [in a Jihad battle]. Say: Had you remained in your houses, those for whom slaughter was ordained [in a Jihad battle] would certainly have gone forth to the places where they would be slain...[3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met...[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain...[3.157]...if you are slain in the way of Allah...mercy is better than what they amass [what those who stay home from Jihad receive – no booty on earth and no perks in heaven]. [3.158] …if indeed you die or you are slain, certainly to Allah shall you be gathered together. Excerpt K 3:165-167 Set 10, Count 29-31 [3.165]...you [Muslims] had certainly afflicted (the unbelievers) with twice as much [in a Jihad battle]...[3.166]...when the two armies met ([the Battle of] Uhud)...[3.167]...Come, fight in Allah's way, or defend yourselves...If we knew fighting, we would certainly have followed you... Excerpt K 3:169 Set 11, Count 32 ...reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [meaning they are enjoying their 72 virgins in heaven]; Excerpt K 3:172-173 Set 12, Count 33+34 [3.172] ...those who responded (at [the Battle of] Uhud) to the call of Allah and the Apostle after a wound had befallen them...shall have a great reward. [3.173] Those to whom the people said: Surely men have gathered against you [in battle], therefore fear them, but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent is the Protector. Excerpt K 3:195 Set 13, Count 35 ...who fought and were slain...I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward. Excerpt K 4:071-072 Set 14, Count 36+37 [4.71] ...go forth in detachments or go forth in a body [to war]. [4.72] ...hang back [from Jihad] ...not present with them [in Jihad]. Excerpt K 4:074-077 Set 15, Count 38-41 [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?... Excerpt K 4:084 Set 16, Count 42 Fight then in Allah's way...rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve... Excerpt K 4:089-091 Set 17, Count 43-45 [4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them... Excerpt K 4:094-095 Set 18, Count 46+47 [4.94]...when you go to war in Allah's way... [4.95] ...those who strive hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal...Allah shall grant to the strivers [i.e., Jihadist] above the holders back a mighty reward. Excerpt K 4:100-104 Set 19, Count 48-52 ...whoever flies in Allah's way [forsakes his home to fight in Jihad], he will find in the earth many a place of refuge and abundant resources, and whoever goes forth from his house flying to Allah and His Apostle, and then death overtakes him [in Jihad], his reward is indeed with Allah...[4.101] Rodwell: And when ye go forth to war in the land, it shall be no crime in you to cut short your prayers, if ye fear lest the infidels come upon you; Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies! [4.102]...let them take their arms...let them take their precautions and their arms...there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms...[4.103] Khalifa: Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.[4.104]...be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy... Excerpt K 4:141 Set 20, Count 53 Sher Ali:...If you have a victory [in Jihad] from Allah... Excerpt K 5:033 Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"] Excerpt K 5:035 Set 22, Count 55 ...strive hard [at Jihad] in His way that you may be successful. Excerpt K 5:082 Set 23, Count 56 ...you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]... Excerpt K 8:001 Set 24, Count 57 Pickthall: ...the spoils of war...The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger Excerpt K 8:005 Set 25, Count 58 Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse; Excerpt K 8:007 Set 26, Count 59 ...Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers. Excerpt K 8:009-010 Set 27, Count 60+61 [8.9]...I will assist you [in Jihad] with a thousand of the angels following one another [see K 008:012]. [8.10] ...Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. Excerpt K 8:012 Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. Excerpt K 8:015-017 Set 29, Count 63-65 [8.15] ...when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ...for the sake of fighting... [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad]... Excerpt K 8:039-048 Set 30, Count 66-75 [8.39] Shakir: ...fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah... [8.40] Yusuf Ali: If they [unbelievers] refuse [to stop fighting], be sure that God is your Protector...[8.41] Shakir: ...whatever thing [loot] you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Apostle...the day on which the two parties met [in a Jihad versus anti-Jihad battle]...[8.42]...Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, that he who would perish might perish by clear proof [bring success to Muslims engaged in robbing a caravan near Badr against all the odds]...[8.43]...Allah showed them [the Mekkans] to you in your dream as few [fighters]; and if He had shown them [the Mekkans] to you as many [fighters] you would certainly have become weak-hearted [i.e., hearts. See the similar discussion in K 002:249 about how a smaller army can defeat a larger army]...[8.44]...when you met, as few [fighters] in your eyes and He made you to appear little [few fighters] in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done [a Jihad versus anti-Jihad battle brought on by overconfidence in each side]...[8.45]...when you meet a party [in battle], then be firm...[8.46]...obey Allah and His Apostle and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts [demoralized] and your power [to execute Jihad] will depart...[8.47]...be not like those [Mekkans] who came forth from their homes [in an anti-Jihad War on Islamic terrorism]...[8.48]...when the two parties [Muslims versus Mekkans] came in sight of each other he [Satan] turned upon his heels... Excerpt K 8:057-060 Set 31, Count 76-79 Pickthall: [8.57] If thou come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember. [8.57] Khalifa: When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers. [8.59] Shakir: ...let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. [8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way [for Jihad]... Excerpt K 8:065-075 Set 32, Count 80-90 [8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam]. [8.66] ...if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission... [8.67] It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods [i.e., ransom money] of this world... [8.68] ...ransom... [8.69] Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war [war spoils]...[8.70] O Prophet! say to those of the captives [non-Muslims] who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you [in Jihad]...[8.71] Yusuf Ali: But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Apostle!)...He [Allah] given (thee) power over them...[8.72] Yusuf Ali: Those who ...fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of God...[8.73] Yusuf Ali: The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief. [8.74] Yusuf Ali:...fight for the Faith...[8.75] Yusuf Ali: ...fight for the Faith... Excerpt K 9:005 Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush... Excerpt K 9:012-014 Set 34, Count 92-94 [9.12] ...fight the leaders of unbelief...[9.13] What! will you not fight a people...[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. Excerpt K 9:016 Set 35, Count 95 ...those of you who have struggled hard [in Jihad] Excerpt K 9:019-020 Set 36, Count 96+97 [9.19] ...strives hard in Allah's way?... [9.20]...strove hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their souls... Excerpt K 9:024-026 Set 37, Count 98-100 [9.24] ...striving in His way [Jihad]:, then wait till Allah brings about His command [to go on Jihad]: ... [9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of [the Battle of] Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, ... [9.26] ...chastised those who disbelieved [Muhammad gives credit to angels and Allah for the actions of Jihadists]... Excerpt K 9:029 Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Excerpt K 9:036 Set 39, Count 102 ...fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together... Excerpt K 9:038-039 Set 40, Count 103+104 [9.38] ...Go forth in Allah's way [to Jihad]... [9.39] If you do not go forth [to go on Jihad], He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you [to go on Jihad]... Excerpt K 9:041 Set 41, Count 105 Go forth light [lightly armed] and heavy [heavily armed], and strive hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your persons... Excerpt K 9:044 Set 42, Count 106 ...striving hard with their property and their persons [Jihad] ... Excerpt K 9:052 Set 43, Count 107 ...Allah will afflict you with punishment from Himself or by our hands... Excerpt K 9:073 Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them... Excerpt K 9:081 Set 45, Count 109 ...they were averse from striving in Allah's way [Jihad] with their property and their persons, and said: Do not go forth [to Jihad] in the heat... Excerpt K 9:083 Set 46, Count 110 ... shall you fight an enemy with me [in Jihad]... Excerpt K 9:086 Set 47, Count 111 ...strive hard [in Jihad] along with His Apostle Excerpt K 9:088 Set 48, Count 112 ...strive hard [in Jihad] with their property and their persons... Excerpt K 9:092 Set 49, Count 113 Yusuf Ali: Nor (is there blame) on those who came to thee to be provided with mounts [saddles on which to go to war], and when thou said, "I can find no mounts for you," they turned back, their eyes streaming with tears of grief that they had no resources wherewith to provide the expenses [to go on Jihad]. Excerpt K 9:111 Set 50, Count 114 ...they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain... Excerpt K 9:120 Set 51, Count 115 Yusuf Ali:...whether they suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of Allah [while on a march to Jihad], or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers [invade their territory], or received any injury whatever from an enemy [during a Jihad battle]... Excerpt K 9:122-123 Set 52, Count 116+117 [9.122] Pickthall:...the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth... [9.123] ...fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness... Excerpt K 16:110 Set 53, Count 118 Yusuf Ali:...who thereafter strive and fight for the faith and patiently persevere... Excerpt K 22:039 Set 54, Count 119 Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made... Excerpt K 22:058 Set 55, Count 120 Sher Ali: ...those who leave their homes for the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die, Allah will, surely, provide for them a goodly provision... Excerpt K 22:078 Set 56, Count 121 ...strive hard [in Jihad] in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him... Excerpt K 24:053 Set 57, Count 122 ...they would certainly go forth [to Jihad (see K 024:055)]... Excerpt K 24:055 Set 58, Count 123 Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth [as a reward for going on Jihad (see K 024:053)]... Excerpt K 25:052 Set 59, Count 124 Palmer: ...fight strenuously with them in many a strenuous fight. Excerpt K 29:006 Set 60, Count 125 ...whoever strives hard [in Jihad], he strives only for his own soul... Excerpt K 29:069 Set 61, Count 126 ...(as for) those who strive hard [in Jihad] for Us [Allah]... Excerpt K 33:015 Set 62, Count 127 Pickthall: ...they had already sworn unto Allah that they would not turn their backs (to the foe) [in Jihad battle]... Excerpt K 33:018 Set 63, Count 128 ...they come not to the fight [Jihad] but a little... Excerpt K 33:020 Set 64, Count 129 ...they would not fight save a little [in Jihad]. Excerpt K 33:023 Set 65, Count 130 Pickthall: ...Some of them [Jihadists] have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting... Excerpt K 33:25-27 Set 66, Count 131-133 [33.25]...Allah sufficed the believers in fighting... [33.26]...some [Jews] you killed and you took captive another part. [33.27]...He made you heirs to their [Jewish] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden... Excerpt K 33:050 Set 67, Count 134 ...those [captive women] whom your right hand possesses [i.e., by virtue of the sword used in Jihad] out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war... Excerpt K 42:039 Set 68, Count 135 Sale:...and who, when an injury is done them, avenge themselves... Excerpt K 47:004 Set 69, Count 136 ...when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates...(as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah... Excerpt K 47:020 Set 70, Count 137 ...fighting [allusion to Jihad] is mentioned therein ... Excerpt K 47:035 Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works... Excerpt K 48:15-24 Set 72, Count 139-148 [48.15] Pickthall: ...when you set forth to capture booty...[48.16]...You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit...[48.17] Pickthall: There is no blame...for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeys Allah and His messenger [by going on Jihad], He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turns back [from Jihad], him will He punish with a painful doom. [48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility on them and rewarded them with a near victory, [48.19] And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. [48.20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path. [48.21] Sale: And [he also promiseth you] other [spoils], which ye have not [yet] been able [to take]: But now hath God encompassed them [for you]; and God is almighty. [48.22] And if those who disbelieve fight with you, they would certainly turn (their) backs, then they would not find any protector or a helper. [48.23] Such [i.e., the Jihad mentioned the previous verse] has been the course [practice] of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah’s course. [48.24] And He [Allah] it is Who held back...your hands from them [in Jihad] in the valley of Mecca... Excerpt K 49:015 Set 73, Count 149 Sale: ...true believers ...employ their substance and their persons in the defense of God's true religion... Excerpt K 59:002 Set 74, Count 150 ...the hands of the believers [i.e. Muslims demolished Jewish homes] ... Excerpt K 59:5-8 Set 75, Count 151-154 Pickthall:[59.5] Whatsoever palm-trees you cut down or left standing on their roots [during a Jihad siege of the Jews at Madina], it was by Allah's leave, in order that He might confound the evil-livers [Jews]. [59.6] ...that which Allah gave as spoil unto His messenger from them, you urged not any horse or riding-camel for the sake thereof, but Allah gives His messenger lordship over whom He will... [59.7] That which Allah gives as [war] spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships [Jews], it is for Allah and His messenger...whatsoever [spoils] the messenger gives you, take it...[59.8] ...who seek bounty [war spoils] from Allah... Excerpt K 59:014 Set 76, Count 155 They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls... Excerpt K 60:009 Set 77, Count 156 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion [no fraternizing with the enemy]... Excerpt K 61:004 Set 78, Count 157 ...Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall. Excerpt K 61:011 Set 79, Count 158 ...struggle hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your lives... Excerpt K 61:013 Set 80, Count 159 ...victory [in Jihad] near at hand... Excerpt K 63:004 Set 81, Count 160 ...they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [This verse speaks of internecine Jihad against Muslims deemed infidels or "hypocrites."] Excerpt K 64:014 Set 82, Count 161 ...surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them [collaborators with the enemy, especially if the women were once war spoils]... Excerpt K 66:009 Set 83, Count 162 O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them... Excerpt K 73:020 Set 84, Count 163 ...others who fight in Allah's way... Excerpt K 76:008 Set 85, Count 164 And they [Muslims] give food out of love for Him [Allah] to...the captive [of Jihad] ...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
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Tchan909 said: I find the argument against religion from antitheism to be baffling, in fact! By blaming religions for inspiring people to commit atrocities, are you not embracing polytheism?
No. 
Quote:
Tchan909 said: Theism is inescapable. You have to make it your tool or it will do the same to you.
Wut?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14231927 - 04/03/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Islam is actually a religion of diplomacy. It was invented to unite huge numbers of warring tribes who each swore to a different deity, and was baptized in blood when the polytheists waged war on the monotheists. The ability of Mohammad and the Quran to ultimately unite the Arabs under a single, all-encompassing God is why the religion is named for the word "Peace."
Understanding of context is even more important than the text itself. Since you are capable of quoting so many Quran verses that can be interpreted as endorsing violence, maybe you should make an effort to understand the sociopolitical trends at work in that book's assumptions.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14231938 - 04/03/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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Tchan909 said: I find the argument against religion from antitheism to be baffling, in fact! By blaming religions for inspiring people to commit atrocities, are you not embracing polytheism?
No. 
Yes, you are. You are ascribing religious violence to the faith of believers, rather than to problems with them individually and with their society. This implies that you believe faith and its manifestations to be more powerful than famine, war, and simple human abuse in motivating human behavior. I think that's nonsense.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Islam is actually a religion of diplomacy. It was invented to unite huge numbers of warring tribes who each swore to a different deity, and was baptized in blood when the polytheists waged war on the monotheists. The ability of Mohammad and the Quran to ultimately unite the Arabs under a single, all-encompassing God is why the religion is named for the word "Peace."
Understanding of context is even more important than the text itself. Since you are capable of quoting so many Quran verses that can be interpreted as endorsing violence, maybe you should make an effort to understand the sociopolitical trends at work in that book's assumptions.
I don't give a shit about the Koran or its history, all I know is that it is the holy book for Muslims. Religion is fucking stupid IMO, and is more a problem than anything else for humanity.
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Tchan909 said:
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Poid said:
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Tchan909 said: I find the argument against religion from antitheism to be baffling, in fact! By blaming religions for inspiring people to commit atrocities, are you not embracing polytheism?
No. 
Yes, you are. You are ascribing religious violence to the faith of believers, rather than to problems with them individually and with their society.
Who said that I cannot ascribe it to their faith, their society, and them individually? I said religion is a problem, not the only problem.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14231971 - 04/03/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I edited it to make my point a bit clearer.
I think that people have faith in the things they do because of the things they have experienced in life. Religious extremism is always a simple and direct product of contemporary problems. Attempting to do away with religion to solve these problems is like treating pneumonia with painkillers.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 2
#14231984 - 04/03/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I don't give a shit about the Koran or its history, all I know is that it is the holy book for Muslims. Religion is fucking stupid IMO, and is more a problem than anything else for humanity.
If you're ignorant about a subject then keep your mouth shut.
I find the tendency to spout hateful, ignorant bile is a bigger problem than religion.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I think that people have faith in the things they do because of the things they have experienced in life.
Like being brainwashed at an early age for example?
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Tchan909 said: Religious extremism is always a simple and direct product of contemporary problems.
What do you mean by this? It is a contemporary problem.
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Tchan909 said: Attempting to do away with religion to solve these problems is like treating pneumonia with painkillers.
And what is wrong with that? 
It's not like we can't treat the source of the pneumonia while at the same time also treat some of its symptoms.
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Tchan909 said:
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Poid said: I don't give a shit about the Koran or its history, all I know is that it is the holy book for Muslims. Religion is fucking stupid IMO, and is more a problem than anything else for humanity.
If you're ignorant about a subject then keep your mouth shut.
My knowledge (or lack thereof) of the Koran is irrelevant--the point is that it is a catalyst for violence. And I never claimed to be completely ignorant about it, I just said that I don't give a shit about it. There's a difference.
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Tchan909 said: I find the tendency to spout hateful, ignorant bile is a bigger problem than religion.
, wow, this is rich--you're hating people for hating people who hate/kill people...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14232043 - 04/03/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Religious "brainwashing" can be seen as a lexical phenomenon, like a language-learning process. It's an old and outmoded process in modern times to be certain, but to blame it for rigid thinking remains an oversimplification.
I know we're not in PSP but I'd like to know how you can be so certain the Quran is a "catalyst" for violence rather than a post-facto rationalization.
I don't hate you, I just think that in this age of information, false, baseless, and misleading information stated as true is a plague. Many antitheists, such as yourself just now, display a colossal and appalling ignorance of the subject you rail against. False, hateful ideologies like these can be just as powerful a means to incite violence against innocent people as can religion.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Religious "brainwashing" can be seen as a lexical phenomenon, like a language-learning process. It's an old and outmoded process in modern times to be certain, but to blame it for rigid thinking remains an oversimplification.
Right, we can't blame Islam-fueled violence on the adults who tell their children to kill infidels.
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Tchan909 said: I know we're not in PSP but I'd like to know how you can be so certain the Quran is a "catalyst" for violence rather than a post-facto rationalization.
I thought even one of those Koran quotes would be enough; apparently not.
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Tchan909 said: I don't hate you, I just think that in this age of information, false, baseless, and misleading information stated as true is a plague. It can be just as powerful a means to incite violence on innocent people as can religion.
So? Does this excuse religion? Do you actually think it's worse than religion?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14232086 - 04/03/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Poid said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: Religious "brainwashing" can be seen as a lexical phenomenon, like a language-learning process. It's an old and outmoded process in modern times to be certain, but to blame it for rigid thinking remains an oversimplification.
Right, we can't blame Islam-fueled violence on the adults who tell their children to kill infidels.
This isn't really a problem. Most terroristically-inclined Muslims do not have parents, or they are rebelling against their parents by waging "armed Jihad." The Christmas bomber was reported to the authorities by his father.
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Tchan909 said: I know we're not in PSP but I'd like to know how you can be so certain the Quran is a "catalyst" for violence rather than a post-facto rationalization.
I thought even one of those Koran quotes would be enough; apparently not.
The Quran takes armed struggle for granted in passages like these. It does not endorse violence.
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Tchan909 said: I don't hate you, I just think that in this age of information, false, baseless, and misleading information stated as true is a plague. It can be just as powerful a means to incite violence on innocent people as can religion.
So? Does this excuse religion? Do you actually think it's worse than religion?
No, I don't think religion is a problem. I think it's fallacious and ignorant to blame religion for these problems. Ignorance is a real problem.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: Religious "brainwashing" can be seen as a lexical phenomenon, like a language-learning process. It's an old and outmoded process in modern times to be certain, but to blame it for rigid thinking remains an oversimplification.
Right, we can't blame Islam-fueled violence on the adults who tell their children to kill infidels.
This isn't really a problem. Most terroristically-inclined Muslims do not have parents, or they are rebelling against their parents by waging "armed Jihad."
Source please; you know several suicide bombers have been children? An ex-Marine friend of mine had to kill one for running beyond a checkpoint.
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Tchan909 said: The Quran...does not endorse violence.
Sorry, I can't take you seriously about this anymore. 
It most definitely, explicitly endorses violence.
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Tchan909 said: No, I don't think religion is the problem. I think it's fallacious and ignorant to blame religion for these problems. Ignorance is a real problem.
Again, by this (retarded) logic, we can't blame Islam for the erection of mosques. ( )
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14232167 - 04/03/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It doesn't surprise me that suicide bombers can be children, but do you really think Islam is such an eeevil religion that it induces parents to send their children to blow themselves up? This is the polytheism I'm talking about. It doesn't occur to you that other, more materialistic, identifiable, smaller-scale factors might be inducing this type of behavior. No, it's that bastard Islam.
The middle-east is currently experiencing a youth boom. Simultaneously, many of these youths are orphans because of the warfare endemic in the middle-east. We're not really helping by constantly invading at random and playing petty dictators off against one another. And with the broken public services of the region, orphans end up being raised and cared-for by petty warlords and militias, who often think nothing of strapping dynamite to their chests and telling them everything will get better when they detonate it.
Islam is nothing but a feature of the middle-east, a region harried by serious material, economic, and social difficulties. If you give a shit about your fellow man at all, then you will focus on the materialistic problems you can actually address in order to make a lasting, positive change.
But I see you're set in my views and so am I.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: It doesn't surprise me that suicide bombers can be children, but do you really think Islam is such an eeevil religion that it induces parents to send their children to blow themselves up? This is the polytheism I'm talking about. It doesn't occur to you that other, more materialistic, identifiable, smaller-scale factors might be inducing this type of behavior. No, it's that bastard Islam.
Why do you think that doesn't occur to me? You seem to be suggesting that, just because not all violence is religiously-fueled, religiously-fueled violence is excusable.
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Tchan909 said: The middle-east is currently experiencing a youth boom. Simultaneously, many of these youths are orphans because of the warfare endemic in the middle-east. We're not really helping by constantly invading at random and playing petty dictators off against one another.
WTF are you talking about, we're trying to eliminate the dictators that exist there; please provide a source for this claim about it experiencing a "youth boom".
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Tchan909 said: And with the broken public services of the region, orphans end up being raised and cared-for by petty warlords and militias, who often think nothing of strapping dynamite to their chests and telling them everything will get better when they detonate it.
How does this excuse religiously-fueled violence? Please give me a straight, simple answer.
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Tchan909 said: Islam is nothing but a feature of the middle-east, a region harried by serious material, economic, and social difficulties.
Nothing but a feature? It's a defining feature of the culture(s) there.
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Tchan909 said: If you give a shit about your fellow man at all, then you will focus on the materialistic problems you can actually address in order to make a lasting, positive change.
I don't think there is any help for those people at this point.
What's hilarious here is that, while you blame atheism for the things about atheist people and their actions that you don't like, you have a problem with blaming religion for the actions of religious people.
Double standards much? Yes, very much.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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How many people have killed in the name of religion? How many have killed in the name of atheism?
And atheism is the ugly thing?  
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 2
#14232248 - 04/03/11 05:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why the hell do you think I'm trying to excuse religious violence? I'm trying to excuse religion itself, to absolve it of responsibility for violence, and to assign responsibility for that violence where it's due - to earthly matters which can be quantified, measured, and addressed, and are only incidentally related to religion.
I'm playing "devil's advocate" because it just happens to be so very fashionable to bash religion without having any understanding of what religion actually is. And I'm pointing out your ignorance, and the hypocrisy inherent to your belief system. I'm sorry it had to come to this, because I honestly do like you as a person Poid. 
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_45159.html - youth boom in North Africa and Middle East
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/2010522111933536619.html - Iraqi orphans face uncertain future.
How can you blame religion?
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Why the hell do you think I'm trying to excuse religious violence? I'm trying to excuse religion itself, to absolve it of responsibility for violence, and to assign responsibility for that violence where it's due - to earthly matters which can be quantified and measured, and are only incidentally related to religion.
You're right, that the suicide bombers who killed in the name of Allah were Muslims is just incidental. 
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I'm playing "devil's advocate" because it just happens to be so very fashionable to bash religion without having any understanding of what religion actually is.
I've never seen this, most people have a decent enough grasp of what religion is.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: And I'm pointing out your ignorance, and the hypocrisy inherent to your belief system. I'm sorry it had to come to this, because I honestly do like you as a person Poid. 
I like you, too, and hope you're not taking any of this personally, because I sure as hell am not; I'm not getting mad at you or anything, if that's what you think. 
I'm a bit buzzed, too, so sorry for sounding so harsh. I do not see any hypocrisy in my belief system, you have failed to point it out to me in a way that I would be able to agree with or understand.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: How can you blame religion?
The same way you blame atheism.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
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Quote:
Poid said: How many people have killed in the name of religion? How many have killed in the name of atheism?
And atheism is the ugly thing?   
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14232290 - 04/03/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Now let's get one thing straight here, I never blamed atheism for anything, I just think it's a waste of your brainspace. 
Anyway, I can't really think of better ways to explain it. I see religion as being comparable to language. People have different ways of expressing their relationship with the universe and the community, and I find it a form of bigotry to blame a language for the errors of its speakers. It's not like anybody would ban the German language because of the World Wars, though you probably could make an interesting case that its structure encourages rapacious colonialism and mass murder. 
I'm about to go off on a bike ride but perhaps we will continue this discussion later.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Now let's get one thing straight here, I never blamed atheism for anything, I just think it's a waste of your brainspace. 
A lack of a belief wastes no space; IMO, belief in God is a waste of brainspace.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: Anyway, I can't really think of better ways to explain it. I see religion as being comparable to language. People have different ways of expressing their relationship with the universe and the community, and I find it a form of bigotry to blame a language for the errors of its speakers.
You find it a form of bigotry for people to put responsibility where it belongs?
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Tchan909 said: It's not like anybody would ban the German language because of the World Wars, though you probably could make an interesting case that its structure encourages rapacious colonialism and mass murder. 
Key word 'probably'.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I'm about to go off on a bike ride but perhaps we will continue this discussion later. 
Oh I love bike riding, especially in the Bay Area; have fun, dude!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14233140 - 04/03/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
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meatcakeman said: of course atheism is a religion.
No it isn't.
that's a bit extreme to say it isn't. i wasn't aware you were the deciding pinnacle appointed to the officialization of religions. in actuality, religion can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. even looking it up in the dictionary would only give you a bare minimum of what religion could possibly mean to someone. it really depends on the individual and how their belief system justifies the meaning of, and complies with their opinions to, life. in my eyes, even those that reject religion have a religion: the religion of rejecting religions.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233162 - 04/03/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So the people who say atheism is a religion, does that mean that every person in the world has a religion?
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blewmeanie




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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233189 - 04/03/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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meatcakeman said: of course atheism is a religion.
No it isn't.
that's a bit extreme to say it isn't. i wasn't aware you were the deciding pinnacle appointed to the officialization of religions. in actuality, religion can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. even looking it up in the dictionary would only give you a bare minimum of what religion could possibly mean to someone. it really depends on the individual and how their belief system justifies the meaning of, and complies with their opinions to, life. in my eyes, even those that reject religion have a religion: the religion of rejecting religions.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14233202 - 04/03/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: Why damn the specifics? How about holding people and groups of people responsible for what they do? 
Because I don't really find them personally responsible for existing in this world as a human being with neurotic tendencies.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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meatcakeman
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Quote:
Shroomerette said: So the people who say atheism is a religion, does that mean that every person in the world has a religion?
no. but if one person believes in a religion, that makes that belief system a religion, even if it is only followed by one individual. so, for some, atheism could be a lack of religion. but, for others, atheism can turn into a religion if they allowed it to dictate their moral values and ethical codes and followed it as a religion. and if you're truly accepting of all religions, who's to say such an individual is wrong?
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233273 - 04/03/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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meatcakeman said: of course atheism is a religion.
No it isn't.
that's a bit extreme to say it isn't. i wasn't aware you were the deciding pinnacle appointed to the officialization of religions. in actuality, religion can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. even looking it up in the dictionary would only give you a bare minimum of what religion could possibly mean to someone. it really depends on the individual and how their belief system justifies the meaning of, and complies with their opinions to, life. in my eyes, even those that reject religion have a religion: the religion of rejecting religions.
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Quote:
Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum
if religions were penguins, who's to say he can't constitute as a penguin?
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Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233277 - 04/03/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does it bother you that your definition of religion is in conflict with pretty much every accepted understanding of the word?
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233282 - 04/03/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 7. religions, Archaic . religious rites. 8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
i think my definition of religion falls as a mixture between 6 and 8.
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blewmeanie




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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233309 - 04/03/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't see how. Again, how does the absence of a specific belief conform to any of that.
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233321 - 04/03/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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at atheism's core is a specific belief. if you don't believe a God exists, then you devotedly and unwaveringly live your life by that doctrine. if you didn't religiously live by it, you'd just be a halfway, slutty agnostic.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233441 - 04/03/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The absence of a belief isn't a belief, or a doctrine or anything else. No matter how you dress it up.
It seems like what you're really talking about is secular humanism, though that's still most certainly not a religion, in that a rejection of religious dogma is one of it's most obvious characteristics.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233447 - 04/03/11 09:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seems to me that atheists doesn't really exist then. I've never met anyone who hasn't held a belief of some form.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Shroomerette
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233449 - 04/03/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Shroomerette said: So the people who say atheism is a religion, does that mean that every person in the world has a religion?
no. but if one person believes in a religion, that makes that belief system a religion, even if it is only followed by one individual. so, for some, atheism could be a lack of religion. but, for others, atheism can turn into a religion if they allowed it to dictate their moral values and ethical codes and followed it as a religion. and if you're truly accepting of all religions, who's to say such an individual is wrong?
If I accept your definition of a religion as accurate and concede that a person may create a religion based on atheism, then I also contend that atheism itself would not be a religion but merely a basis from which a religion is created. The moral values and ethical values created based on atheism would be a religion, but not atheism itself. There actually are atheistic religions now, they do not believe in dieties but still hold to a set of religious values. Those religions are not called "atheism", they are called Buddhists or Hindus. It is the other beliefs that they hold besides their lack of belief in a diety that define the religion, not the atheism itself.
Quote:
meatcakeman said: at atheism's core is a specific belief. if you don't believe a God exists, then you devotedly and unwaveringly live your life by that doctrine. if you didn't religiously live by it, you'd just be a halfway, slutty agnostic.
It is not a specific belief. It is a specific lack of belief in a supernatural power that you have no logical reason to believe in. You do not have to be "devoted" to living an atheist life, all you have to do in not believe in god/gods and live accordingly. It doesn't take any special rituals or actions to be athiest. It is just living life without religion, which isn't hard to do.
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blewmeanie




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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Kickle] 1
#14233473 - 04/03/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Seems to me that atheists doesn't really exist then. I've never met anyone who hasn't held a belief of some form.
It's a specific belief, not all beliefs.
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Kickle
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233521 - 04/03/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, the way I see it, atheism is a maintained state of non-belief. Which is counter-intuitive to the idea that there is no belief, because what would be maintained? So even though it often becomes described as a requirement of evidence, it is this belief in certain forms of evidence that ultimately informs the decision to not believe in God.
How can an informed decision really be free of belief, unless we actually know it all?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233527 - 04/03/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said: The absence of a belief isn't a belief, or a doctrine or anything else. No matter how you dress it up.
It seems like what you're really talking about is secular humanism, though that's still most certainly not a religion, in that a rejection of religious dogma is one of it's most obvious characteristics.
Quote:
a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] –noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
I doubt your definition of Atheism supersedes that of a dictionary's, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

atheism isn't the absence of any belief. it is just the absence of theistic belief. in the most holistic sense, there is no such thing as an absence of belief. if you don't believe in something particular, then you believe in something else. even if it seems uncertain, then you believe it is uncertain, not true, or false.
Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum - if i can doubt my existence, then i exist. if you can disbelieve, then you believe.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233592 - 04/03/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dictionary.com can define it however they want but that doesn't change the simple point that the absence of belief in god isn't a belief in the absence of a god.
A theism means not theistic, as in atypical ( not typical), anomaly, (not normal).
Note the prefix A, meaning non, or absence of. Socrates was labeled an atheist in Athens not for denying god, but for lacking a belief in the state sanctioned gods, and Christians were persecuted as atheists in Rome for the same reason.
Quote:
It seems like what you're really talking about is secular humanism, though that's still most certainly not a religion, in that a rejection of religious dogma is one of it's most obvious characteristics.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233610 - 04/03/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Today's religion is yesterday's secular humanism.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14233617 - 04/03/11 09:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
No specific evidence for being conscious? 
...
...they don't know the complicated mathematics which explains exactly how or why 2+2=4 but they know nonetheless.
By the whole no specific evidence for consciousness argument I meant that we can't point at any SINGLE thing and say THAT THING proves we are conscious. Attention can be brought to many kinds of objects/phenomena, but the object itself can not be aware of itself. Therefore any single object can not qualify as evidence of awareness, the objects are only reflecting your own awareness back to you.
I think you put it pretty well there in the end. We don't understand how it works but we know nonetheless that it does.
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Quote:
Shroomerette said: So the people who say atheism is a religion, does that mean that every person in the world has a religion?
Yes. Everyone has a religion even if they do not explicitly call it that.
In clouser's book of religious neutrality he gives a great argument for that.
Quote:
The first part of Clouser's Myth argues that a religious belief is any belief about the divine or any belief about how humans are related to the divine. His definition of "divine" is anything that has the status of not being dependent on anything else.
Its all about how you define the non-dependent. If you just believe in a physical reality & your nervous system, then Materialism is your religion.
He gives much more information explaining this. His argument is very convincing and his definition of religion is the most accurate in my opinion.
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blewmeanie




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I believe you're an idiot. Is that a religion?
Just kidding.
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meatcakeman
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233669 - 04/03/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
It seems like what you're really talking about is secular humanism, though that's still most certainly not a religion, in that a rejection of religious dogma is one of it's most obvious characteristics.
no, not exactly. atheism can be a religion just like how environmentalism can be a religion. and yes, there are actually debates on whether or not environmentalism can be constituted as a religion. obviously, imo, it is. the institutionalized belief that religion has to look someway or be someway is heinous. inevitably, our debate can last forever since my views are pretty liberal, but i live contently with my system of beliefs.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233866 - 04/03/11 10:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The silliest thing about this topic to me is that theism isn't even a religion, so how could atheism possibly be one.
EDIT: and there's nothing remotely liberal about you perspective, I've heard the same arguments almost word for word from orthodox jews at chabad house and pentecostal ministers in kentucky.
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mianfei
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:Today's religion is yesterday's secular humanism. 
That is a familiar argument from the conservative side of politics, which argues that atheism is in essence a “culture of death” founded on hatred or ignorance of natural law. One can see from Arthur Brooks’ recent study Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism that atheists indeed are much more selfish and hard-hearted than those who practice religion. My brother, an extremely aggressive atheist, says Brooks has vested interests that make him want to believe religious people are more generous and compassionate but I get the impression that he does not and became a Catholic for more or less the same reason Dorothy Day did.
On the other hand, it is difficult for me to find a serious counter-argument to the thesis that selfish, materialistic atheism is an unavoidable consequence of the Industrial Revolution in all but the most mineral- and land-rich countries. Even those nations in Asia that have followed a small-government, capitalist path have become extremely secular and materialistic, with very low levels of generosity towards others. Only Australia, with its limitless supply of flat land, has retained the traditional values of Western culture to an appreciable extent. To put it another way, how can children be valuable if the economic base needed to nurture them is liable to be moved to another place with lower labour costs, and the space to nurture them is non-existent??
Thus, even if atheism leads to major demographic problems and to underlying cultural values that are to say the least nasty (though not always seen on the surface because of the effects of government redistribution), if not outright murderous as with Nazism and Marxism, one should see it as inevitable for most countries in an industrial world.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14235145 - 04/04/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think atheism is a religion in the sense that everyone believes in something. what separates an atheist from a muslim aside from the type of belief? i think this point is driven home more so when atheists ban together claiming discrimination. atheists are group in the same way that christians or taoists are.
--------------------
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14239498 - 04/04/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said: The silliest thing about this topic to me is that theism isn't even a religion, so how could atheism possibly be one.
EDIT: and there's nothing remotely liberal about you perspective, I've heard the same arguments almost word for word from orthodox jews at chabad house and pentecostal ministers in kentucky.
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln101/Sevendi.htm
http://creation.com/atheism-a-religion
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=31895
btw, i'm an atheist, so i'm a bit different than an orthodox jew and a minister.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14239519 - 04/04/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol @ creation.com as a source
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meatcakeman
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Quote:
Shroomerette said: lol @ creation.com as a source
it's just a fairly similar description to what i personally believe as my opinion. maybe if you actually read it, you'd see why i posted it.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14239610 - 04/05/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see why you posted it and I understand your point, but I still disagree with the definitions of religion and atheism used in that article. That's ok, I don't mind differences of opinion. As long as you aren't trying to use creation.com as an authoritative source I have no problem with your post, since obviously that site will have a conflict of interest.
I consider myself an atheist because I do not believe in god/gods, but I do not reject the possibility that they may exist though I think it unlikely. Maybe most people would consider me agnostic in that sense. I definitively reject the possibility of the christian god as described by the bible, but there may be others, and I don't reject the possibility of some higher power. The source of the word atheism means not believing in god or gods, and that is why I consider myself atheist.
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Edited by Shroomerette (04/05/11 12:40 AM)
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meatcakeman
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i completely respect your stance and understand where you are coming from. i guess i have a more fundamentalist point-of-view towards atheism.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14240101 - 04/05/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wouldn't call atheism an ugly thing - except for those fundamentalist atheists. I wish those ones could embrace science enough to figure out a way to kill themselves and prove their theories. Although I think that about fundamentalist or extremist anythings. Compared to religion though, I would say atheism has a pretty good track record. There's a good point made near the end of this:
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: muddy] 1
#14242911 - 04/05/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here's where I honestly don't "get" atheism: okay, so you have a lack of beliefs re: god. This means you do not believe no gods exist, either.
In other words, you're a weak agnostic.
I don't see the difference between weak agnosticism and weak atheism. Atheism only seems differentiated to me when you actively believe THERE ARE NO GODS, and will happily inform those who believe otherwise that they are wrong.
So I don't see where it's possible to be a non-fundamentalist atheist...?
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CMACD
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Here's where I honestly don't "get" atheism: okay, so you have a lack of beliefs re: god. This means you do not believe no gods exist, either.
In other words, you're a weak agnostic.
I don't see the difference between weak agnosticism and weak atheism. Atheism only seems differentiated to me when you actively believe THERE ARE NO GODS, and will happily inform those who believe otherwise that they are wrong.
So I don't see where it's possible to be a non-fundamentalist atheist...?
Atheists typically don't have ANY beliefs other than what cold, hard, peer-reviewed evidence has suggested. Most of this evidence suggests that there is no god. It doesn't suggest that it is equally probable that there is or isn't one. I don't think most atheists would have a problem if you were more specific with your classing and called them a "leaning towards atheist agnostic", but why waste time with bullshit like that?
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: CMACD] 1
#14243035 - 04/05/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wouldn't say ANY cold, hard, peer-reviewed evidence has suggested that there is or isn't a god. There is no way to test for that, or to infer a positive or negative likelihood from experimental data.
All we know for certain is that rigid, conservative institutions have dragged their heels (sometimes violently) in accepting empirical data which contradicts the view of reality they promote. This has turned a lot of science-minded individuals against such elements of their lexicon and philosophy as the unquestionable existence of "God."
So a non-fundamentalist atheist only suspects there is no god. This is a personal suspicion, since no data may be provided to rule out the existence of gods.
It should also be noted that the strength of this suspicion has its roots in that ugliest of domains: politics.
Fine by me, but there's no defensible need to broadcast such a suspicion unless you are trying to convince other people to share in it, hence fundamentalist. And that is why atheism is an ugly thing.
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Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 05:28 PM)
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meatcakeman
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skepticism is infectious. and we all know people are often internally stricken by differences in opinion. accordingly, some people find it more comfortable to stick to one ideology rather than wrongly choose a questionable other. it's like when you feel like you know the answer to a problem so you bubble in C, even though you secretly feel like it could've been B. yet, you continue on to finish the test, unaffected by it because you already know you're gonna pass anyways.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14243247 - 04/05/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The argument against God from a scientific perspective seems completely schizophrenic to me, TBH.
God is a purely metaphysical entity; certain arguments as to the meaning of life, the purpose of existence, etc. may be made if we accept the existence of God.
There are absolutely NO aspects of God which may be scientifically tested. None at all. Never have been. God is an idea, not a physical reality. We can disprove certain historical and scientific aspects of the Bible, but what the fuck would you expect from the writings of people who lived thousands of years ago?
Since science has nothing to say on the substance of thought (and I should know, I'm a cognitive neuroscience major), the arguments of atheists against God seem to accept the possibility of the existence of God as a material possibility. And so they are hardcore theists. Since they cannot accept the fact that God is and always has been a human idea, they join ranks with those who believe God is a bearded man in the sky who smites unbelievers.
Absolutely no scientific data points you firmly in one direction or the other.
You might as well postulate that wherever I see the color green, you see the color purple. The only difference is that no political implications are inherent to the assertion that you see green where I see purple.
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Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 06:08 PM)
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: God is an idea, not a physical reality.
Great, yet another definition for the term "God".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243397 - 04/05/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So are you an agnostic or an atheist, Poid?
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Poid
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Agnostic.
Most people IME who believe in God would disagree with your definition BTW.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: So are you an agnostic or an atheist, Poid?
They are not mutually exclusive. You can be both.
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Poid
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...a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.
That's me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243507 - 04/05/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Poid said: Agnostic.
Hey, me too! 
Quote:
Most people IME who believe in God would disagree with your definition BTW. 
This isn't really my personal definition though, it's been the definition used by learned men since the dawn of theism.
The problem with today's theism is the departure of reason. It started around the end of the middle ages, when secular, universalist institutions of learning began to draw thinkers away from the churches, which were left with nothing but ancient dogma, empty ritual, and indignant charlatans.
I believe atheists make a huge mistake by pandering to the primitive thought process embraced by religious fundamentalists. As the saying goes - argue with an idiot and he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. In this way, atheists contribute to the growth of religious fundamentalism we are seeing today.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I believe atheists make a huge mistake by pandering to the primitive thought process embraced by religious fundamentalists. As the saying goes - argue with an idiot and he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. In this way, atheists contribute to the growth of religious fundamentalism we are seeing today.
And you agree that religious fundamentalism is a bad thing, right?
I really cannot understand the mindset of one who believes that atheism is worse than theism, or of one who believes that atheism is in any way, shape, or form a bad thing...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243583 - 04/05/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Again, I'm not saying extroverted atheism is worse than religious fundamentalism. I hold them about equally atrocious. One is the mirror-image of the other.
I should clarify, in light of the above statement, that I have no problem with introverted atheism. If anything it is probably a mark of intelligence. Similar to how the anus is a mark of highly-evolved metabolism.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Again, I'm not saying extroverted atheism is worse than religious fundamentalism. I hold them about equally atrocious. One is the mirror-image of the other.
Did you just make up the term "extroverted atheism"? How is it equally as atrocious as religious fundamentalism? How many extroverted atheists have killed in the name of atheism?
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I should clarify, in light of the above statement, that I have no problem with introverted atheism. If anything it is probably a mark of intelligence. Similar to how the anus is a mark of highly-evolved metabolism.
What is the difference between extroverted, and introverted atheism? May you define them for me?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243667 - 04/05/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I just made up the expression "extroverted atheism." By it I mean atheism which is extroverted: projected onto others by use of language and action.
(Strong examples of extroverted atheism as a violent, dangerous thing, peer with religious fundamentalism, can be found in the examples of Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.)
By "introverted atheism" I mean that atheism which is personal and internalized, not commonly shared with and never imposed upon others.
It's all the difference between an anus that is covered up by pants and a
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Yeah, I just made up the expression "extroverted atheism." By it I mean atheism which is extroverted: projected onto others by use of language and action.
(Strong examples of extroverted atheism as a violent, dangerous thing, peer with religious fundamentalism, can be found in the examples of Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.)
So what exactly did Stalin and Mao do? Did they kill in the name of atheism? If they were trying to rid their societies of religion, why would that necessarily be a bad thing? Religion is a plague; fuck religion. 
 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (04/05/11 07:09 PM)
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243746 - 04/05/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Religion was banned and persecuted during the times of Mao and Stalin. So yes, they killed in the name of atheism, because they believed their societies would be better-off without religion.
(They felt this way because they read it in a book called The Communist Manifesto - see a pattern emerging here?)
I think it was a bad thing to do, personally. Mao and Stalin both thought they knew better than their people. I feel quite comfortable saying they did in fact not know better than their people, and they proved this by starving tens of millions of innocents to death through forced collectivization. They confiscated all of their people's farming equipment, relocated it to huge industrialized communes, and in the meantime people died because food production dried up.
It's all on the same spectrum of rapacious ideology IMO.
Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 07:15 PM)
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Mao also invaded Tibet, citing that religion is the enemy of progress.
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Religion was banned and persecuted during the times of Mao and Stalin. So yes, they killed in the name of atheism, because they believed their societies would be better-off without religion.
Are you not understanding why I keep using the graemlin?
Obviously, religion is detrimental to humanity/society, so attempting to get rid of it before it gets out of hand (e.g. ) is a good thing.
Also, just because they persecuted religious people doesn't necessarily mean that they did so in the name of atheism; as Silversoul noted earlier in this thread, there is a difference between atheism and anti-theism.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I think it was a bad thing to do, personally. Mao and Stalin both thought they knew better than their people. I feel quite comfortable saying they did in fact not know better than their people, and they proved this by starving tens of millions of innocents to death through forced collectivization.
The idiots should have dropped their stupid beliefs. 
This only goes to show how fucking retarded religion is, and religious people are.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: It's all on the same spectrum of rapacious ideology IMO. 
It's not the same, at all; atheism is not an ideology.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Kickle] 1
#14243808 - 04/05/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The point I was trying to make much earlier in the thread (around page 2 or 3) is that and are not religious problems, but social and political problems. Nowhere in the Quran does it say "And lo, the mideast shall be plagued with tens of millions of illiterate, hungry orphans; and they shall righteously smite themselves into the skyscrapers of the more fortunate." I explained my position in that matter as well as I could, so you might want to re-read it; if it still doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say. 
Quote:
Kickle said: Mao also invaded Tibet, citing that religion is the enemy of progress.
So I guess religion IS to blame!
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: The point I was trying to make much earlier in the thread (around page 2 or 3) is that and are not religious problems, but social and political problems.
The exact same could be said about Stalin and Mao; religion is a social problem, BTW.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: Nowhere in the Quran does it say "And lo, the mideast shall be plagued with tens of millions of illiterate, hungry orphans; and they shall righteously hurl themselves into the skyscrapers of the more fortunate."
But it does say to kill infidels. Explicitly. Several times.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I explained my position in that matter as well as I could, so you might want to re-read it; if it still doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say. 
They killed infidels in the name of Allah; I don't know why it's easy for you to blame atheism for what Stalin and Mao did, yet so hard for you to blame religion for what happened on 9/11.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (04/05/11 07:32 PM)
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243869 - 04/05/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I didn't blame atheism for Stalin and Mao. I simply pointed out an association between their atheism and the atrocities they committed against humanity. It would be no more appropriate to blame their atrocities on their atheism than it would be to blame the atrocities of desperate, sociopathic Arabs on their religion. 
To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on a small band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare among the Arab tribes.
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Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 07:36 PM)
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Poid
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I didn't blame atheism for Stalin and Mao. I simply pointed out an association between their atheism and the atrocities they committed against humanity.
OK, so how does this mean that atheism is an ugly thing?
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Tchan909 said: It would be no more appropriate to blame their atrocities on their atheism than it would be to blame the atrocities of desperate, sociopathic Arabs on their religion. 
It could be blamed on their anti-theism, not their atheism; it is very appropriate to blame the atrocities caused by Muslims in the name of their religion on their religion. Again, by your logic, the erection of mosques cannot be blamed on Islam; both the atrocities that occurred on 9/11 and the erection of mosques were done in the name of Islam, so they can both be blamed on Islam.
Quote:
Tchan909 said: To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.
Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back it up?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243920 - 04/05/11 07:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Atheism is an ugly thing because theism of any shade is a hole, like an anus, which excretes hazardous psychological waste material, which goes uncovered.
I can accept nudism as a morally valid practice, but even nudists don't go around sticking their assholes in each other's faces.
(Can you tell how proud I am of myself for coming up with that anal analogy? )
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.
Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back this up?
Wikipedia is not generally accepted as a source in scholarly works, but since we're just shooting the shit here on the Shroomery I'll leave it up to you to follow up on the sources used by these wikipedia articles if you so desire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_before_Medina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Atheism is an ugly thing because it is a hole, like an anus, which excretes hazardous psychological waste material, which goes uncovered.
How is it any of that? 
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I can accept nudism as a morally valid set of practices, but even nudists don't go around sticking their assholes in each other's faces.
Religion is a problem for humanity/society; wearing clothes is not.
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Tchan909 said: (Can you tell how proud I am of myself for coming up with that anal analogy? )
Haha. 
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Tchan909 said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.
Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back this up?
Wikipedia is not generally accepted as a source in scholarly works, but since we're just shooting the shit here on the Shroomery I'll leave it up to you to follow up on the sources used by these wikipedia articles if you so desire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_before_Medina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans
I'd rather you just quote the relevant sections, thank you.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243988 - 04/05/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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GOD!
Quote:
Conservative opposition arose to Muhammad's speeches. According to Ibn Sad, the opposition in Mecca started when Muhammad delivered verses that "spoke shamefully of the idols they [the Meccans] worshiped other than [God] and mentioned the perdition of their fathers who died in disbelief."[68] According to Watt, as the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad's denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[63]
Some of the ranking and influential leaders of the Quraysh tried (but failed) to come to some arrangements with Muhammad in exchange for abandoning his preaching. They offered him admission into the inner circle of merchants and establishing his position in the circle by an advantageous marriage, but Muhammad refused.[63] During this period, Muhammad urged his followers to be pacifist, commanding them to "deal gently with the infidels".
I used to be pretty vitriolically opposed to all forms of religion myself, but the more I study and learn, the more I realize we're just repeating the same cycle over and over again, and the culprit is not any given religion but actually simple human nature. 
I'm a transhumanist.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: GOD!
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Conservative opposition arose to Muhammad's speeches. According to Ibn Sad, the opposition in Mecca started when Muhammad delivered verses that "spoke shamefully of the idols they [the Meccans] worshiped other than [God] and mentioned the perdition of their fathers who died in disbelief."[68] According to Watt, as the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad's denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[63]
Some of the ranking and influential leaders of the Quraysh tried (but failed) to come to some arrangements with Muhammad in exchange for abandoning his preaching. They offered him admission into the inner circle of merchants and establishing his position in the circle by an advantageous marriage, but Muhammad refused.[63] During this period, Muhammad urged his followers to be pacifist, commanding them to "deal gently with the infidels".
Infidel
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The Arabic word kafir (literally the one who "covers", usually translated as "disbeliever"[citation needed] ) is the Muslim term commonly translated into English as infidel. In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize the one God (Allah) - atheists and polytheists.
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Tchan909 said: I used to be pretty vitriolically opposed to all forms of religion myself, but the more I study and learn, the more I realize we're just repeating the same cycle over and over again, and the culprit is not any given religion but actually simple human nature. 
And this excuses religion, how?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244056 - 04/05/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Blaming religion for violence is part of the selfsame cycle of violence that results in new religions.
Humans have a pathological "problem-solution" mentality manifesting in solutions that have direr consequences than the original problems.
Yesterday's solutions are today's problems... it has always been thus.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Blaming religion for violence is part of the selfsame cycle of violence that results in new religions.
And this excuses religion, how?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244075 - 04/05/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm trying to absolve religion specifically of religious violence, and to lay the blame for violence on the humans who create and perpetuate both religions and violence.
Blaming religion for violence is kind of like blaming gays for AIDS.
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Tchan909 said: I'm trying to absolve religion specifically of religious violence...
Well good luck with that.
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Tchan909 said: ...and to lay the blame for violence on the humans who create and perpetuate both religions and violence.
Everything humans do is human nature; the blame can be put both on religion and human nature.
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Tchan909 said: Blaming religion for violence is kind of like blaming gays for AIDS.
You mean like blaming certain gays for spreading AIDS? If they truly spread AIDS, then what is the problem with that?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244142 - 04/05/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I guess my problem is with generalizations - would you advise your friends never to adopt the homosexual lifestyle on the grounds that you don't want them to get AIDS? That would be ridiculous, because they would (hopefully) follow safe sex practices, and most gay people do not have AIDS. The gays-AIDS association only works specifically, but generally it is dangerous and foments hostility.
Similarly, most religious people adhere to their faith in order to feel a sense of shared meaning and for personal absolution/inner peace. The religious-violence association only works specifically, such as for our friend , but generally it is dangerous and foments hostility.
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Tchan909 said: I guess my problem is with generalizations...
So long as you understand that they're just generalizations, what is the problem?
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Tchan909 said: ...would you advise your friends never to adopt the homosexual lifestyle on the grounds that you don't want them to get AIDS? That would be ridiculous, because they would (hopefully) follow safe sex practices...
You can still get AIDS if you follow safe-sex practices. Most people who drive buzzed/drunk do not get in fatal accidents, but I still would not advise anybody I cared about to drive while buzzed/drunk.
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Tchan909 said: The gays-AIDS association only works specifically, but generally it is dangerous and foments hostility.
How is it dangerous, and how does it foment hostility?
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Tchan909 said: Similarly, most religious people adhere to their faith in order to feel a sense of shared meaning and for personal absolution/inner peace. The religious-violence association only works specifically, such as for our friend , but generally it is dangerous and foments hostility.
Violence isn't the only problem with religion, not by a long-shot.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244226 - 04/05/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That doesn't answer the question - do you tell your gay friends to stop being gay because analingus carries a higher risk than other forms of sex for HIV transmission? Do you speak out against all homosexuality for this reason?
Even if you understand that you are speaking in generalizations, people who hear you often do not. I'm sure you have a humble enough self-image not to feel guilty about speaking in undistinguished generalizations, but consider this: there are plenty of people on the Internet dumb enough to take a well-written post that reinforces their prejudices as Gospel truth.
What are your problems with religion other than violence?
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Tchan909 said: That doesn't answer the question - do you tell your gay friends to stop being gay because analingus carries a higher risk than other forms of sex for HIV transmission? Do you speak out against all homosexuality for this reason?
This isn't a very good analogy--the negatives in religion far outweigh the potential negatives of being a sexually-active homosexual.
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Tchan909 said: Even if you understand that you are speaking in generalizations, people who hear you often do not.
Right, which means that we should blame this on atheism. 
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Tchan909 said: I'm sure you have a humble enough self-image not to feel guilty about speaking in undistinguished generalizations, but consider this: there are plenty of people on the Internet dumb enough to take a well-written post that reinforces their prejudices as Gospel truth.
Right, which means that we should blame this on atheism. 
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Tchan909 said: What are your problems with religion other than violence?
Far too many to list; for starters, I don't like how it corrupts the youth, I don't like the superstitious mindset of its followers, and I just think it's fucking retarded. Also, it totally just fucks people up.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (04/05/11 09:19 PM)
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 2
#14244315 - 04/05/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Religions, strictly, are nothing but sets of beliefs and cultural practices that have been handed down for millenia.
You and I are handing down beliefs and cultural practices as well, even if we do not put the title "religion" on those things, and our own beliefs and cultural practices are equally at-risk to corruption as religion.
Again, I'm not blaming atheism for anything. I'm just calling it ugly. Christians can boast that they have an ancient book of history and poetry thousands of pages long, plus a long and diverse tradition in the arts and science, but what have you got to show for your beliefs? Nothing but the and an unspoken air of superiority.
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Tchan909 said: Religions, strictly, are nothing but sets of beliefs and cultural practices that have been handed down for millenia.
That isn't a complete definition of what religions are.
Religion
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Religion is a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
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Tchan909 said: Again, I'm not blaming atheism for anything. I'm just calling it ugly.
You haven't shown it to be ugly, and you seem to keep mistaking it for anti-theism.
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Tchan909 said: Christians can boast that they have an ancient book of history and poetry thousands of pages long, plus a long and diverse tradition in the arts and science, but what have you got to show for your beliefs? Nothing but the and an unspoken air of superiority.
So they can boast about their religion, and I'm the one with an air of superiority? 
Who cares what I have to show for my beliefs? What relevance does that have?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244405 - 04/05/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm honestly kind of running on fumes at the moment and beginning to split hairs, so I think I'm gonna bow out of this one for tonight. 
I think the archetypal example of "atheism as an ugly thing" is represented by God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. You should read it if you have the time and opportunity. I love Hitchens as a commentator, but I feel like this book is the Bible for snarky and obnoxious atheism with no understanding (or even a purposeful disregard) for the logic of the theology it opposes.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I'm honestly kind of running on fumes at the moment and beginning to split hairs, so I think I'm gonna bow out of this one for tonight. 

Quote:
Tchan909 said: I think the archetypal example of "atheism as an ugly thing" is represented by God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. You should read it if you have the time and opportunity. I love Hitchens as a commentator, but I feel like this book is the Bible for snarky and obnoxious atheism with no understanding (or even a purposeful disregard) for the logic of the theology it opposes.
Logic in theology? Give me a break.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 2
#14244430 - 04/05/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Very well, I shall concede to you the last laugh.
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+1
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14244537 - 04/05/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Atheism can be a beautiful thing; but it isn't necessarily so- after all, atheism is not a dogmatic religious belief that requires you to act according to a set of rules (aka a religion). There are as many attitudes within it as there are atheists.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: CMACD]
#14663884 - 06/24/11 04:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hitler exterminated millions of Jews, and although he professed the Christian faith publicly, he was privately areligious.
I think you missed the point. Those followers were religious, and in truth he was counting on being able to motivate people by using religion.
And his ally, Hirohito, literally was god according to the Japanese. This gave people a good excuse to sacrifice themselves if they were crazy enough... and they endeavored to kill their enemies in the process.
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I'm trying to absolve religion specifically of religious violence, and to lay the blame for violence on the humans who create and perpetuate both religions and violence.
Blaming religion for violence is kind of like blaming gays for AIDS.
Sure it's humans doing it, but religion makes for a very deceptive tool to get people (not all religious people, but some) to do whatever you want, regardless of whether it even fits in with the code of the religion. I just personally can't see the net benefit of it, but then again, some people may find it difficult or even impossible to behave morally without religion. I try not judge people for needing this to keep them straight, however, as I'm sure given different conditions, I could be the same way.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid]
#14666344 - 06/24/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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Tchan909 said: That doesn't answer the question - do you tell your gay friends to stop being gay because analingus carries a higher risk than other forms of sex for HIV transmission? Do you speak out against all homosexuality for this reason?
This isn't a very good analogy--the negatives in religion far outweigh the potential negatives of being a sexually-active homosexual.
What would the condom of religion be?
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie]
#14666984 - 06/24/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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claiming that there's nothing once you die is just as bad as claiming there is something such as heaven/hell. The simple truth is that we dont know... athiests are just as dumb as all other religious followers imo
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: foliocb]
#14667520 - 06/24/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie]
#14667614 - 06/24/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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^ nice..
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie]
#14667964 - 06/24/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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blewmeanie said:

-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie]
#14678572 - 06/27/11 04:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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blewmeanie said:
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Poid said:
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Tchan909 said: That doesn't answer the question - do you tell your gay friends to stop being gay because analingus carries a higher risk than other forms of sex for HIV transmission? Do you speak out against all homosexuality for this reason?
This isn't a very good analogy--the negatives in religion far outweigh the potential negatives of being a sexually-active homosexual.
What would the condom of religion be?
Liquidation.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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