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Atheism is theistic in its logic...
    #15380102 -

Hey folks,

I have often pondered the philosophical, spiritual (or whatever you want to call it) belief system of atheism.  I find it very difficult to understand and in particular, I find it very contradictory to its own definition; atheism may be defined as the rejection of the existence of deities.  I find this very theistic in its logic.  How can one possibly make such claims if they aren't a deity or a god?  Only a being capable of such knowledge (god or deities) could know such a thing.

Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs, although in a general sense I believe it is adequate. 

If there are any atheists out there, I would greatly appreciate your insight.

M


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15380746 -

I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15380982 -

M11 said:
Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs....

What other "atheistic beliefs" are there?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11] * 1
    #15381072 -

M11 said:
Hey folks,

I have often pondered the philosophical, spiritual (or whatever you want to call it) belief system of atheism.  I find it very difficult to understand and in particular, I find it very contradictory to its own definition; atheism may be defined as the rejection of the existence of deities.  I find this very theistic in its logic.  How can one possibly make such claims if they aren't a deity or a god?  Only a being capable of such knowledge (god or deities) could know such a thing.

Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs, although in a general sense I believe it is adequate. 

If there are any atheists out there, I would greatly appreciate your insight.

M


Atheism = Lack of belief in a deity.  It's not a belief system.  That is the definition most atheists go by.


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15381105 -

Greek word atheos meaning "without god".


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15381315 -

Poid said:
M11 said:
Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs....

What other "atheistic beliefs" are there?


Poid,

One can get into all sorts of semantics arguments.  What is "belief" and what is a "belief system?"  That sort of thing.  More specifically, I have heard self proclaimed atheists state that they are more agnostics to such an extent that they are essentially atheists; there is a god, but it is so removed from us that it isn't really worth consideration.  This is a different sort of atheism. 

Reeferaddict,

If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.  The "god question" is always normalized by belief regardless of which belief system you are referring to. I don't see how this would negate what I stated previously in my first post.  I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god, or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.  Only a deity could make such claims.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15381389 -

M11 said:
If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.

Not necessarily.


M11 said:
I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god...

You don't see how a person can deny the existence of that for which there is no evidence?


M11 said:
...or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.

What makes you think that people are in no intellectual position to deny the existence of God/belief systems that point to a God?


M11 said:
Only a deity could make such claims.

What an absolutely absurd statement.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Kickle]
    #15382084 -

Kickle said:
I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


That's the problem with athiesm, it takes things too literally. Sure, many beliefs written out sound absolutely ridiculous, but the positive effects that those writings have on our consciousness are far from crazy. Like when a football player thanks god for catching a touchdown pass, it sounds absurd that some higher power cares about some little game. However, that belief in a higher power may be the main reason he found his success in the first place. So god may be nothing, but when one believes it is something, then it can be everything as well.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: BirdsIView]
    #15382100 -

If you have 100% faith in no god you still have as much faith as a believer.

The atom has a positive negative and a neutral


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★★★ ★

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15382171 -

Poid said:
M11 said:
If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.

Not necessarily.


M11 said:
I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god...

You don't see how a person can deny the existence of that for which there is no evidence?


M11 said:
...or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.

What makes you think that people are in no intellectual position to deny the existence of God/belief systems that point to a God?


M11 said:
Only a deity could make such claims.

What an absolutely absurd statement.


1. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god.  Please give me your definition of atheism if this definition is inadequate.

2.  I don't see how one can blatantly deny the existence of god.    Just because there may or may not be evidence for the existence of god, doesn't mean god doesn't exist.

3.  People are in no intellectual position to make such vast assumptions of the true nature and origin of the universe.  We hardly understand our own brain chemistry, so how can we make such vast generalizations about something that is so inconceivably larger than we are?

4.  The true nature of our universe could only be understood by god, because god, by nature, is the only being that could be associated with the understanding of all, which includes god and whether or not it exists. 

I think the most one could ever say is that they are an agnostic; "We don't know whether there is a god or not."  To be a blatant atheist is silly, because it makes a vast generalization about our universe; we are merely part of our universe. 

ETA:  I really appreciate discussions like this.  It helps me discover more about my belief system.  I intend no rude or condescending remarks. 


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/17/11 12:41 AM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15383747 -

Quote:
Reeferaddict,

If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.  The "god question" is always normalized by belief regardless of which belief system you are referring to. I don't see how this would negate what I stated previously in my first post.  I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god, or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.  Only a deity could make such claims.


Lack of belief isn't the same thing as denying god..There may be some sort of a deity but there's no evidence pointing to one so therefore I don't believe in one.  Do you not understand the difference between not believing and denying?


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15384042 -

What you just stated is essentially agnosticism.  I can't see how one can claim atheism as a viable belief; the most they could ever claim is that they are an agnostic.  What you just said is that you are an agnostic, "Given the lack of evidence, we can't know whether there is a god or not, therefore I do not conform to belief systems that point to god."


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/17/11 01:39 PM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: BirdsIView]
    #15384178 -

BirdsIView said:
Kickle said:
I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


That's the problem with athiesm, it takes things too literally. Sure, many beliefs written out sound absolutely ridiculous, but the positive effects that those writings have on our consciousness are far from crazy. Like when a football player thanks god for catching a touchdown pass, it sounds absurd that some higher power cares about some little game. However, that belief in a higher power may be the main reason he found his success in the first place. So god may be nothing, but when one believes it is something, then it can be everything as well.


Atheism does not deny potential gains from belief. Just as it doesn't deny potential detriments. Praying for healing as an example can produce benefits for those praying (emotionally) but has not been shown to produce any benefits physically (actual healing). So both potential benefits and potential detriment can be readily admitted by an atheist while maintaining an explanation of no God. A psychological explanation can be used instead and it fits the evidence, pointing away from unknown intervention by a God that acts in mysterious ways.

For the record I am a theist but I do think atheists in general have a good grasp of blasting away unsupported beliefs. Which is not to say that atheists do not hold unsupported beliefs themselves. All of us do because none of us have all the information. If we did we'd be all-knowing.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384254 -

M11 said:
What you just stated is essentially agnosticism.  I can't see how one can claim atheism as a viable belief system; the most they could ever claim is that they are an agnostic.  What you just said is that you are an agnostic, "Given the lack of evidence, we can't know whether there is a god or not, therefore I do not conform to belief systems that point to god."


Here's the dictionary definition of atheism.  Most atheists go by the 2nd definition.  The 2nd definition is not a belief system.  However the first one is and therefore isn't a logic position to hold.  I think they should get rid of the first definition personally.

atheism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]   
Origin
a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15384349 -

Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384666 -

Different strokes for different folks. We can say whatever we can say.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384957 -

M11 said:
Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?



This goes back to moral relativism. How can you prove or better yet, disprove?


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15384967 -

Back to the singular argument of atheism being a theist view. From what reefer madness posted. Its almost a different side of the same coin. " a belief there is no god" I could also possibly argue the 2nd reasoning of the atheistic view.


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15385695 -

dshow said:
M11 said:
Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?



This goes back to moral relativism. How can you prove or better yet, disprove?


I don't know if I would classify it as moral relativism, maybe existential relativism, if that is even a term. Your second sentence is exactly what I am saying.  Why would you believe there is no god if there is no evidence that suggests there is or is not one?  As stated above, it takes just as much faith to believe there is a god as it does to believe there is no god. The most one could say is that they are an agnostic, not an atheist.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15386329 -

I think the point of the matter is that there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.  If one has witnessed enough evidence to denote to them a high likelihood of a God or whatever you wish to call it, it is logical for them to be a theist.  If they have not, it is logical for them to be agnostic, and simply say they do not know.

To state, however, with a high level of certainty, that there is no Supreme Being, seems absolutely ludicrous.  The basis of this is that there is no apparent evidence, but we have only witnessed a very SMALL percentage of the "system" of our universe.  One cannot accurately predict the behavior of a system until they have seen all possible variations therein, and we have seen a VERY small portion of the possible behaviors of our universe.  With that in mind, how can one logically conclude that there is no God?  The best one could realistically argue is that they do not know either way.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15386446 -

M11 said:
dshow said:
M11 said:
Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?



This goes back to moral relativism. How can you prove or better yet, disprove?


I don't know if I would classify it as moral relativism, maybe existential relativism, if that is even a term. Your second sentence is exactly what I am saying.  Why would you believe there is no god if there is no evidence that suggests there is or is not one?  As stated above, it takes just as much faith to believe there is a god as it does to believe there is no god. The most one could say is that they are an agnostic, not an atheist.



i dont know who the fuck you are. but lol


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:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: tokinman21]
    #15386448 -

tokinman21 said:
I think the point of the matter is that there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.  If one has witnessed enough evidence to denote to them a high likelihood of a God or whatever you wish to call it, it is logical for them to be a theist.  If they have not, it is logical for them to be agnostic, and simply say they do not know.

To state, however, with a high level of certainty, that there is no Supreme Being, seems absolutely ludicrous.  The basis of this is that there is no apparent evidence, but we have only witnessed a very SMALL percentage of the "system" of our universe.  One cannot accurately predict the behavior of a system until they have seen all possible variations therein, and we have seen a VERY small portion of the possible behaviors of our universe.  With that in mind, how can one logically conclude that there is no God?  The best one could realistically argue is that they do not know either way.



or to state who simply gives a fuck? hahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhah


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15386461 -

dshow said:
tokinman21 said:
I think the point of the matter is that there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.  If one has witnessed enough evidence to denote to them a high likelihood of a God or whatever you wish to call it, it is logical for them to be a theist.  If they have not, it is logical for them to be agnostic, and simply say they do not know.

To state, however, with a high level of certainty, that there is no Supreme Being, seems absolutely ludicrous.  The basis of this is that there is no apparent evidence, but we have only witnessed a very SMALL percentage of the "system" of our universe.  One cannot accurately predict the behavior of a system until they have seen all possible variations therein, and we have seen a VERY small portion of the possible behaviors of our universe.  With that in mind, how can one logically conclude that there is no God?  The best one could realistically argue is that they do not know either way.



or to state who simply gives a fuck? hahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhah


If that's your choice, sure. :shrug:

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: tokinman21]
    #15386464 -

jus givin another point. you see?


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15386474 -

:smirk: 





im on the same journey


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: tokinman21]
    #15389095 -

tokinman21 said:
I think the point of the matter is that there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.  If one has witnessed enough evidence to denote to them a high likelihood of a God or whatever you wish to call it, it is logical for them to be a theist.  If they have not, it is logical for them to be agnostic, and simply say they do not know.

To state, however, with a high level of certainty, that there is no Supreme Being, seems absolutely ludicrous.  The basis of this is that there is no apparent evidence, but we have only witnessed a very SMALL percentage of the "system" of our universe.  One cannot accurately predict the behavior of a system until they have seen all possible variations therein, and we have seen a VERY small portion of the possible behaviors of our universe.  With that in mind, how can one logically conclude that there is no God?  The best one could realistically argue is that they do not know either way.


This.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Kickle]
    #15390660 -

Kickle said:
I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


Nah, this.  :cool:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15390815 -

M11 said:
1. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god.  Please give me your definition of atheism if this definition is inadequate.

It's not inadequate. A person who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist. If you need me to explain this exceedingly simple concept further, I'd be happy to.


M11 said:
2.  I don't see how one can blatantly deny the existence of god.

Do you also not see how one can blatantly deny the existence of the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster?


M11 said:
Just because there may or may not be evidence for the existence of god, doesn't mean god doesn't exist.

True.


M11 said:
3.  People are in no intellectual position to make such vast assumptions of the true nature and origin of the universe.

What, why not? Just because you believe so?


M11 said:
We hardly understand our own brain chemistry, so how can we make such vast generalizations about something that is so inconceivably larger than we are?

What does our current understanding of brain chemistry have to do with anything, and what makes you think that all assumptions regarding the true nature and origin of the universe are necessarily vast generilizations?


M11 said:
4.  The true nature of our universe could only be understood by god, because god, by nature, is the only being that could be associated with the understanding of all, which includes god and whether or not it exists.

If you define God as the only thing that can understand the true nature of the universe, and if he exists, then sure, he is the only thing that could understand the true nature of the universe. Duh.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11] * 1
    #15391157 -

M11 said:
I have often pondered the philosophical, spiritual (or whatever you want to call it) belief system of atheism.  I find it very difficult to understand and in particular, I find it very contradictory to its own definition; atheism may be defined as the rejection of the existence of deities.  I find this very theistic in its logic.  How can one possibly make such claims if they aren't a deity or a god?  Only a being capable of such knowledge (god or deities) could know such a thing.


Sure you can't technically know whether or not there's a god. But for all practical purposes, and as far as humans can ever know, God does not exist. Looking around at this world I can't honestly believe that there is anything at work I would call "God" controlling life. You could say there's an underlying unity to the universe and whatnot, but that's just the natural order, and that's not what most people mean when they say "god."


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15391577 -

Quote:
or to state who simply gives a fuck? hahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhah


Quote:
im on the same journey


That post just made complete sense lmao, because I've totally been there.  That night was the hardest and longest I think I've laughed in my entire life.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: tokinman21]
    #15393050 -

Poid,

"A person who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist. If you need me to explain this exceedingly simple concept further, I'd be happy to."

1.  Why would one choose to not belief in god, yet still hold a considerable amount of uncertainty whether or not god exists?  That makes no sense.  That is once again not atheism, but agnosticism.  Do you not understand that exceedingly simple concept? 

"Do you also not see how one can blatantly deny the existence of the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster?"

2.  I have no idea what you are inferring with this statement.  God?  Spaghetti?  I mean I like spaghetti and all...

"What, why not? Just because you believe so?"

3.  The example of brain chemistry was intended to explain how little we understand about our own thought processes, our own intellectual capacity; therefore, in this context it makes a fine example for my argument.  If you seriously believe that we have the intellectual capacity to understand the origins and nature of the universe, you are sadly mistaken and to think otherwise is silly.  We are merely a minuscule spec of our universe.  Other examples of how little we know are... the weather, the nature of the deep ocean, quantum physics...

"If you define God as the only thing that can understand the true nature of the universe, and if he exists, then sure, he is the only thing that could understand the true nature of the universe. Duh."

4.  Maybe you should give a definition of god?  It sounds like you wish to get into semantics. Go for it.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/19/11 01:27 PM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15394169 -

M11 said:
Poid,

"A person who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist. If you need me to explain this exceedingly simple concept further, I'd be happy to."

1.  Why would one choose to not belief in god, yet still hold a considerable amount of uncertainty whether or not god exists?  That makes no sense.

I don't know.

One who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily choose to not have a belief in him (an example would be a feral child who was never taught about him). A feral child who was never exposed to the concept of God, and who therefore lacks a belief in him (and all other deities), is an atheist, not an agnostic.


M11 said:
That is once again not atheism, but agnosticism.

Atheism, most inclusively, is simply the absence of belief in deities.

Are you still having trouble with the concept that one who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist?


M11 said:
"Do you also not see how one can blatantly deny the existence of the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster?"

2.  I have no idea what you are inferring with this statement.  God?  Spaghetti?  I mean I like spaghetti and all...

You've never heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Alright, let me use a different example: Do you also not see how one can blatantly deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy?


M11 said:
"What, why not? Just because you believe so?"

3.  The example of brain chemistry was intended to explain how little we understand about our own thought processes, our own intellectual capacity; therefore, in this context it makes a fine example for my argument.

No it doesn't, it's not even relevant to your claim.


M11 said:
If you seriously believe that we have the intellectual capacity to understand the origins and nature of the universe, you are sadly mistaken and to think otherwise is silly.

We do understand the origin and nature of our universe... have you ever even heard of the big bang theory, and/or the study of physics?


M11 said:
We are merely a minuscule spec of our universe.  Other examples of how little we know are... the weather, the nature of the deep ocean, quantum physics...

It doesn't matter how little we know; the fact that we know things about the deep ocean and quantum physics means that we know something about the nature of the universe. Your claim that we lack the intellectual capacity to understand the nature of the universe is complete nonsense.


M11 said:
"If you define God as the only thing that can understand the true nature of the universe, and if he exists, then sure, he is the only thing that could understand the true nature of the universe. Duh."

4.  Maybe you should give a definition of god?  It sounds like you wish to get into semantics. Go for it.

God, simply put, is a fictional deity. He's not real as far as I'm concerned.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15394299 -

Poid,

What do you mean by "belief in god?"  I fear you are using it in a different context than I am.  Other than that, I can't understand your argument at all.  It is really illogical to say you don't "believe in god," but you still can't rule out whether or not you think he exists.  To me that sounds like you just don't want to believe in god, because it fits your own life, personality, whatever. 

You say my brain chemistry example is irrelevant, yet you won't explain why.  Yes, I have heard of the big bang theory, key word being theory. I was given the opportunity to tour parts of CERN and actually had a very good discussion with a physicist there; she said the big bang is one of thousands of theories concerning the origins of the universe developing at CERN.  Even she admitted trying to simulate by making vast theoretical extrapolations about the origins of the universe is taking like taking tiny shots into a massive dark void.  Yes, I have have taken a number of physics classes given I am physical chemistry graduate student. 

What you must first accept is that science is a language.  It is much like an art.  It is a depiction of what we think is real.  We use models, graphs, assumptions in an attempt to make sense of what is real.  But science is not perfect in any way -it is riddled with our imperfections.  We don't fully understand the true nature of anything.

To say we know something about our universe is hardly an argument for why we can understand the nature and origins of our universe.  Keep in mind our current "understanding" of our world is formulated with our imperfect science.  In other words, it isn't a perfect understanding, but it will do in some cases. 

I believe there is a god.  Take our first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy, as evidence.  Energy cannot be made or destroyed, only transformed.  So how the hell did all this energy get here in the first place?  The same can be said for matter.  It all had to stem from something that resides outside the basic laws of our own world.  I see all of this, you, me and the rest of this crazy place, as evidence of god.  Another thing that blows my mind is that our universe is inclined towards chaos, entropy. So then how the hell did we, nicely ordered little beings, get here?  This is just my opinion, but I still think atheism, especially if you can't decide whether you think god exists or not, is BS.

ETA:  I respect you Poid.  I appreciate the arguments.  I find this stuff so interesting.  This shit blows my mind...

+5 :mushroom2:


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/19/11 05:40 PM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15394354 -

Quote:
Atheism, most inclusively, is simply the absence of belief in deities.

Are you still having trouble with the concept that one who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist?





though i think you have a lot of good reasons and true logic, that makes almost no sense. It is a contradictory statement, If it is not, please continue on the topic and let us know what exactly it is your saying.


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

Edited by dshow (11/19/11 05:49 PM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15408095 -

M11 said:
Poid,

What do you mean by "belief in god?"  I fear you are using it in a different context than I am.

I'm not sure what else "belief in God" could mean besides the conviction that there exists a God. :shrug:


M11 said:
It is really illogical to say you don't "believe in god," but you still can't rule out whether or not you think he exists.

How is that illogical? Why is the idea of God so special?

Let's say for example that I don't believe in String Theory, but haven't completely ruled it out; do you think there is anything illogical about that? How is that any different than not believing in God, while not ruling out the possibility that he exists?


M11 said:
You say my brain chemistry example is irrelevant, yet you won't explain why.

You have not established why it's relevant; just because we may have a weak understanding of brain chemistry does not necessarily imply anything about our understanding regarding other fields of study (especially unrelated ones).


M11 said:
Yes, I have heard of the big bang theory, key word being theory.

What is the relevance of the fact that it's a theory? What point are you trying to make by emphasizing the fact that it's a theory?


M11 said:
I was given the opportunity to tour parts of CERN and actually had a very good discussion with a physicist there; she said the big bang is one of thousands of theories concerning the origins of the universe developing at CERN.

Even so, the big bang theory is the most widely-accepted theory concerning the origin of the universe, and it is supported by strong empirical evidence.


M11 said:
We don't fully understand the true nature of anything.

Now you're changing your claim from we don't understand the true nature of the universe to we don't fully understand the true nature of anything... either that, or this is simply an additional claim to your original one.


M11 said:
To say we know something about our universe is hardly an argument for why we can understand the nature and origins of our universe.

How exactly are you defining "nature of the universe"? Isn't everything in the universe part of its nature, and isn't knowing about something in the universe the same thing as knowing something about its nature?


M11 said:
I believe there is a god.  Take our first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy, as evidence.

Why should I? That law was created as a result of "imperfect science". :rolleyes:


M11 said:
Energy cannot be made or destroyed, only transformed.  So how the hell did all this energy get here in the first place?

Just because you don't know how doesn't necessarily mean that God exists.


M11 said:
The same can be said for matter.  It all had to stem from something that resides outside the basic laws of our own world.

I'm not sure how you're defining "world" here, but even if that's true, it doesn't necessarily mean that God exists. It's not even convincing evidence in support of that possibility.


M11 said:
I see all of this, you, me and the rest of this crazy place, as evidence of god.

I don't, and you certainly haven't made a convincing case that this crazy place is evidence of God.


M11 said:
Another thing that blows my mind is that our universe is inclined towards chaos, entropy. So then how the hell did we, nicely ordered little beings, get here?

I am unsure as to the source of your bewilderment... entropy doesn't in any way prevent humans from existing.


M11 said:
This is just my opinion, but I still think atheism, especially if you can't decide whether you think god exists or not, is BS.

I don't; atheism, IMO, is premature confidence at worst, and simple ignorance at best (as in the example of a feral child).


M11 said:
ETA:  I respect you Poid.  I appreciate the arguments.  I find this stuff so interesting.  This shit blows my mind...

+5 :mushroom2:

Hey thanks, I appreciate the conversation as well. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15408114 -

dshow said:
Quote:
Atheism, most inclusively, is simply the absence of belief in deities.

Are you still having trouble with the concept that one who lacks a belief in God doesn't necessarily believe that he doesn't exist?


though i think you have a lot of good reasons and true logic, that makes almost no sense. It is a contradictory statement, If it is not, please continue on the topic and let us know what exactly it is your saying.

It is not a contradictory statement.

Let me use the example of a feral child again: such a child lacks a belief in God, but since s/he has never been exposed to the concept, s/he hasn't yet had the opportunity to consider whether or not he exists (i.e. s/he hasn't formed the belief that he doesn't exist). S/he lacks a belief in God, and s/he doesn't believe that he doesn't exist.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15413017 -

I have no qualms with the big bang as a possible explanation for the beginning of the universe, but believing in the big bang doesn't solve the problem whether god exists or not.  Maybe god made the the big bang?  Maybe it didn't?

I get your feral child example, but it is not really relevant to this discussion considering everyone here has been exposed to the idea of god and whether or not it exists.  What I am saying is that those who choose to disbelieve that god exists after being exposed to the whole concept of god is a silly set of beliefs. Yes, a feral child may be "atheistic," but that is without choosing to be so.  I am talking about people who choose to disbelieve in god.  I guess it is possible that beliefs are not a choice, just a gut feeling of sorts?  Do people choose to believe things?  This sounds like a whole discussion in and of itself. 

I still don't quite get your position of atheism and uncertainty whether god exists or not.  Although I don't understand it, I respect your views much more than someone who simply "knows" that god doesn't exist.  In a nut shell, that is the largest point I was trying to make: People can't know whether god exists or not. 

I was using the principles of thermodynamics to illustrate where I get my beliefs.  Like someone (maybe you?) said earlier, it is like two sides of a coin.  I happen to fall on one side, and you on the other. 

:shrug:

Although our laws of thermodynamics are formulated from imperfect science, it is the best interpretation of reality that we have at this time.  I would like to think they are universally true, but they may not be in other parts of the universe.  But we can't know that until we get there, so I will just use the assumptions we have at this time and place.  I am merely using them to make some sense of this.  I felt that since you explicitly stated your beliefs, I would just give you mine and why I think the way I do.  I guess I feel there is crazy balance between entropy and order in this universe; the fact that there even is an entropy and order is indicative of god.  I choose the other side of the coin.  This is just what I believe.

I think this discussion has no end to it.  I don't think it can.  This is also partly why I think there is a god.

I wish we could trip together sometime.  You sound like the sort of person I would enjoy having discussions with while shrooming.  I think the discussion I have with friends while tripping are probably the most meaningful aspect of shrooms for me.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15413090 -

M11 said:
I have no qualms with the big bang as a possible explanation for the beginning of the universe, but believing in the big bang doesn't solve the problem whether god exists or not.  Maybe god made the the big bang?  Maybe it didn't?

I agree, and never said that it solves that issue, only that it shows that we do in fact have an understanding of the origin of the universe.


M11 said:
I get your feral child example, but it is not really relevant to this discussion considering everyone here has been exposed to the idea of god and whether or not it exists.

I just used that example to clarify how one who lacks a belief in God can also lack the belief that he doesn't exist.


M11 said:
What I am saying is that those who choose to disbelieve that god exists after being exposed to the whole concept of god is a silly set of beliefs.

It's not any sillier than disbelieving in the existence of any random fictional character that one has been exposed to, and most definitely not sillier than believing he exists.


M11 said:
Yes, a feral child may be "atheistic," but that is without choosing to be so.  I am talking about people who choose to disbelieve in god.  I guess it is possible that beliefs are not a choice, just a gut feeling of sorts?  Do people choose to believe things?  This sounds like a whole discussion in and of itself.

I think people choose to believe things.


M11 said:
I still don't quite get your position of atheism and uncertainty whether god exists or not.  Although I don't understand it, I respect your views much more than someone who simply "knows" that god doesn't exist.  In a nut shell, that is the largest point I was trying to make: People can't know whether god exists or not.

I never claimed to be an atheist.

People can't really know anything with 100% certainty though, but we still make educated guesses. An educated guess regarding the existence of God would be that he doesn't exist.

 
M11 said:
Although our laws of thermodynamics are formulated from imperfect science, it is the best interpretation of reality that we have at this time.

And the best interpretation we have of the existence of God at this time is that he is nonexistent.


M11 said:
I would like to think they are universally true, but they may not be in other parts of the universe.  But we can't know that until we get there, so I will just use the assumptions we have at this time and place.

Exactly, you're making an educated guess. :thumbup:


M11 said:
I am merely using them to make some sense of this.  I felt that since you explicitly stated your beliefs, I would just give you mine and why I think the way I do.  I guess I feel there is crazy balance between entropy and order in this universe; the fact that there even is an entropy and order is indicative of god.  I choose the other side of the coin.  This is just what I believe.

I think this discussion has no end to it.  I don't think it can.  This is also partly why I think there is a god.

I wish we could trip together sometime.  You sound like the sort of person I would enjoy having discussions with while shrooming.  I think the discussion I have with friends while tripping are probably the most meaningful aspect of shrooms for me.

You seem like a chill person as well. :cool:

I personally don't conclude from the concepts of thermodynamics and entropy that there is a God. I would be interested in knowing why you believe those concepts are evidence of God. :smile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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