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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Atheism is theistic in its logic...
    #15380102 -

Hey folks,

I have often pondered the philosophical, spiritual (or whatever you want to call it) belief system of atheism.  I find it very difficult to understand and in particular, I find it very contradictory to its own definition; atheism may be defined as the rejection of the existence of deities.  I find this very theistic in its logic.  How can one possibly make such claims if they aren't a deity or a god?  Only a being capable of such knowledge (god or deities) could know such a thing.

Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs, although in a general sense I believe it is adequate. 

If there are any atheists out there, I would greatly appreciate your insight.

M


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15380746 -

I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15380982 -

M11 said:
Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs....

What other "atheistic beliefs" are there?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11] * 1
    #15381072 -

M11 said:
Hey folks,

I have often pondered the philosophical, spiritual (or whatever you want to call it) belief system of atheism.  I find it very difficult to understand and in particular, I find it very contradictory to its own definition; atheism may be defined as the rejection of the existence of deities.  I find this very theistic in its logic.  How can one possibly make such claims if they aren't a deity or a god?  Only a being capable of such knowledge (god or deities) could know such a thing.

Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs, although in a general sense I believe it is adequate. 

If there are any atheists out there, I would greatly appreciate your insight.

M


Atheism = Lack of belief in a deity.  It's not a belief system.  That is the definition most atheists go by.


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15381105 -

Greek word atheos meaning "without god".


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15381315 -

Poid said:
M11 said:
Maybe my definition of atheism is too narrow and doesn't include other atheistic beliefs....

What other "atheistic beliefs" are there?


Poid,

One can get into all sorts of semantics arguments.  What is "belief" and what is a "belief system?"  That sort of thing.  More specifically, I have heard self proclaimed atheists state that they are more agnostics to such an extent that they are essentially atheists; there is a god, but it is so removed from us that it isn't really worth consideration.  This is a different sort of atheism. 

Reeferaddict,

If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.  The "god question" is always normalized by belief regardless of which belief system you are referring to. I don't see how this would negate what I stated previously in my first post.  I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god, or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.  Only a deity could make such claims.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15381389 -

M11 said:
If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.

Not necessarily.


M11 said:
I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god...

You don't see how a person can deny the existence of that for which there is no evidence?


M11 said:
...or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.

What makes you think that people are in no intellectual position to deny the existence of God/belief systems that point to a God?


M11 said:
Only a deity could make such claims.

What an absolutely absurd statement.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Kickle]
    #15382084 -

Kickle said:
I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


That's the problem with athiesm, it takes things too literally. Sure, many beliefs written out sound absolutely ridiculous, but the positive effects that those writings have on our consciousness are far from crazy. Like when a football player thanks god for catching a touchdown pass, it sounds absurd that some higher power cares about some little game. However, that belief in a higher power may be the main reason he found his success in the first place. So god may be nothing, but when one believes it is something, then it can be everything as well.

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: BirdsIView]
    #15382100 -

If you have 100% faith in no god you still have as much faith as a believer.

The atom has a positive negative and a neutral


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★★★ ★

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: Poid]
    #15382171 -

Poid said:
M11 said:
If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.

Not necessarily.


M11 said:
I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god...

You don't see how a person can deny the existence of that for which there is no evidence?


M11 said:
...or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.

What makes you think that people are in no intellectual position to deny the existence of God/belief systems that point to a God?


M11 said:
Only a deity could make such claims.

What an absolutely absurd statement.


1. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god.  Please give me your definition of atheism if this definition is inadequate.

2.  I don't see how one can blatantly deny the existence of god.    Just because there may or may not be evidence for the existence of god, doesn't mean god doesn't exist.

3.  People are in no intellectual position to make such vast assumptions of the true nature and origin of the universe.  We hardly understand our own brain chemistry, so how can we make such vast generalizations about something that is so inconceivably larger than we are?

4.  The true nature of our universe could only be understood by god, because god, by nature, is the only being that could be associated with the understanding of all, which includes god and whether or not it exists. 

I think the most one could ever say is that they are an agnostic; "We don't know whether there is a god or not."  To be a blatant atheist is silly, because it makes a vast generalization about our universe; we are merely part of our universe. 

ETA:  I really appreciate discussions like this.  It helps me discover more about my belief system.  I intend no rude or condescending remarks. 


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/17/11 12:41 AM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15383747 -

Quote:
Reeferaddict,

If atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, then an atheist denies the existence of god.  The "god question" is always normalized by belief regardless of which belief system you are referring to. I don't see how this would negate what I stated previously in my first post.  I can't see how a person can deny the existence of god, or deny other belief systems that point to a god given they are in no intellectual position to do so.  Only a deity could make such claims.


Lack of belief isn't the same thing as denying god..There may be some sort of a deity but there's no evidence pointing to one so therefore I don't believe in one.  Do you not understand the difference between not believing and denying?


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15384042 -

What you just stated is essentially agnosticism.  I can't see how one can claim atheism as a viable belief; the most they could ever claim is that they are an agnostic.  What you just said is that you are an agnostic, "Given the lack of evidence, we can't know whether there is a god or not, therefore I do not conform to belief systems that point to god."


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

Edited by M11 (11/17/11 01:39 PM)

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: BirdsIView]
    #15384178 -

BirdsIView said:
Kickle said:
I think of atheism as a rejection of particular beliefs based on available evidence. For instance the belief of God as an old white haired and thick bearded man in the clouds. In lieu of there being no evidence for this, that belief in God is rejected.


That's the problem with athiesm, it takes things too literally. Sure, many beliefs written out sound absolutely ridiculous, but the positive effects that those writings have on our consciousness are far from crazy. Like when a football player thanks god for catching a touchdown pass, it sounds absurd that some higher power cares about some little game. However, that belief in a higher power may be the main reason he found his success in the first place. So god may be nothing, but when one believes it is something, then it can be everything as well.


Atheism does not deny potential gains from belief. Just as it doesn't deny potential detriments. Praying for healing as an example can produce benefits for those praying (emotionally) but has not been shown to produce any benefits physically (actual healing). So both potential benefits and potential detriment can be readily admitted by an atheist while maintaining an explanation of no God. A psychological explanation can be used instead and it fits the evidence, pointing away from unknown intervention by a God that acts in mysterious ways.

For the record I am a theist but I do think atheists in general have a good grasp of blasting away unsupported beliefs. Which is not to say that atheists do not hold unsupported beliefs themselves. All of us do because none of us have all the information. If we did we'd be all-knowing.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384254 -

M11 said:
What you just stated is essentially agnosticism.  I can't see how one can claim atheism as a viable belief system; the most they could ever claim is that they are an agnostic.  What you just said is that you are an agnostic, "Given the lack of evidence, we can't know whether there is a god or not, therefore I do not conform to belief systems that point to god."


Here's the dictionary definition of atheism.  Most atheists go by the 2nd definition.  The 2nd definition is not a belief system.  However the first one is and therefore isn't a logic position to hold.  I think they should get rid of the first definition personally.

atheism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]   
Origin
a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #15384349 -

Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384666 -

Different strokes for different folks. We can say whatever we can say.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15384957 -

M11 said:
Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?



This goes back to moral relativism. How can you prove or better yet, disprove?


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:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15384967 -

Back to the singular argument of atheism being a theist view. From what reefer madness posted. Its almost a different side of the same coin. " a belief there is no god" I could also possibly argue the 2nd reasoning of the atheistic view.


--------------------
:heart: TRIP on this :wink:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15013229/page/1


:heart:Like EDM?(Electronic Dance Music) http://www.youtube.com/user/ThisisEDM

:heart:Hardstyle Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14951634/page/1

:heart:Trance Music thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15049686

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: dshow]
    #15385695 -

dshow said:
M11 said:
Belief can be based on evidence, but it isn't always necessarily so, correct?  You are stating that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough to maintain a position of disbelief in god or the existence of supreme beings.  Who are we to say that you, me and everything around us is or is not evidence of god?  How can we possibly say it is one way or the other and make founded beliefs one way or the other?



This goes back to moral relativism. How can you prove or better yet, disprove?


I don't know if I would classify it as moral relativism, maybe existential relativism, if that is even a term. Your second sentence is exactly what I am saying.  Why would you believe there is no god if there is no evidence that suggests there is or is not one?  As stated above, it takes just as much faith to believe there is a god as it does to believe there is no god. The most one could say is that they are an agnostic, not an atheist.


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: Atheism is theistic in its logic... [Re: M11]
    #15386329 -

I think the point of the matter is that there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.  If one has witnessed enough evidence to denote to them a high likelihood of a God or whatever you wish to call it, it is logical for them to be a theist.  If they have not, it is logical for them to be agnostic, and simply say they do not know.

To state, however, with a high level of certainty, that there is no Supreme Being, seems absolutely ludicrous.  The basis of this is that there is no apparent evidence, but we have only witnessed a very SMALL percentage of the "system" of our universe.  One cannot accurately predict the behavior of a system until they have seen all possible variations therein, and we have seen a VERY small portion of the possible behaviors of our universe.  With that in mind, how can one logically conclude that there is no God?  The best one could realistically argue is that they do not know either way.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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