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Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization * 1
    #9298576 -


(BTW this is yellow morel.)
This jar was one that I used pavement sand/gravel. It grew some pea sized sclerotia in limited numbers
and was doing a lot of vegetative growth. Then I noticed penicillium or trichoderma, it was a pastel greenish white mycelium growing on one of the sclerotia. I decided to try and reduce the spread of it
by removing the mulch off the gravel, and only removed so much. Then a few days later it had a massive
amount of new sclerotial development. I disturbed the soil and it reacted, along with the presence of a competitor. This makes me believe it is necessary to just pasteurize the nutrient poor layer or both layers. Just like the oysters and other mushrooms, the substrate gets pasteurized to 140°F or whatever so that beneficial microorganisms can prevent the bad contaminates from getting themselves established. From that PBS special it appears that is what they have done, pasteurized the soil and leached it, then cooked the grains, in addition to that they show they are using filters but in the patent it says nothing of it plus the patent calls for autoclaving and sterilization of the jars but not for the trays, for the trays they say steam pasteurize and such. I believe the filters are needed because the
patent calls for drying of the substrate in order to kill off contaminates, but that was for trays yet it is stated that the same methods used for jars is used for trays and visa versa, the same conditions are parallel. Plus the PBS special mentions that they are maintained in summer like conditions for a month.
I don't understand how they can say it is autoclaved when that results in a very weak production of sclerotia. Yet I have seen where bacteria inhibit growth of the morel mycelium and no good growth occurs and yet at other times it causes this aggressive development of sclerotia. Maybe this is where
the patent has faults because its a 50/50 chance of getting the "right" bacteria or micro-organism present.

"The container is covered and autoclaved to kill possible contaminating organisms. The soil layer of the sterilized container is inoculated with ascospores, with vegetative hyphae or with small pieces of sclerotia, and the jar is again sealed. The container is maintained at a temperature of between about 10° C. and about 30° C. and preferably between about 18° C. and about 22° C. "

"Soon after inoculation, hyphae grow from the sclerotia and completely colonize the tray in about one week. As the mycelia develop, no further water is added, thereby allowing the substratum to dry, preferably to a substratum moisture content of below about 75%. Drying of the substratum prior to feeding is considered to be an important factor in inhibiting growth of bacteria and other fungi which would harm or compete with the developing morels. "

"It is desirable that as much sclerotia be produced within the substratum as is possible during this stage because there appears to be a direct relationship between the amount of sclerotia in the substratum and the total weight of ascocarps that develop per unit area of the substratum. Growth of sclerotia in substratum parallels growth of sclerotia in jars, and the same nutrient factors which enhance growth in the jars enhance growth in the substratum. Accordingly, the organic material may be supplemented with vitamins, minerals, additional protein and other substances. "

"Hyphae from the inoculum grow through the soil layer and colonize the grain. After about one week, a loosely compacted mass of hyphae appear in the soil layer. Microscopically viewed, the hyphal cells become highly branched, septate and swell to a barrel shape. This is then followed by the adhesion of adjacent cells to form a solid mass that is visible to the naked eye. It is the sclerotial hyphal cells which store the materials obtained from the colonized grain. The sclerotia at maturity are hard structures which can become quite large. Virtually all of the total soil layer can become enmeshed in sclerotia. "

"The substratum is steam-pasteurized or hot water-pasteurized or autoclaved. Pasteurized substratum is then typically mixed with water to produce a workable slurry."

If morel reacts this aggressively in producing sclerotia in this amount due to disturbance and the presence of a contaminate then that is the best way to get large sclerotia. In addition to the sclerotia developing above the gravel it also was forming further down into it away from the surface which is what I've been looking for all along. I think I'll also try the smaller container size which is a pint jar, although the PBS special shows what maybe a half-pint jar, but I don't think its the size of the jar but the depth of the substrate. Besides the patent says 500 ml and that is a pint.

I think there needs to be some sort of mechanism inside the jar to "disturb" the soil, a marble or something that can break up the mulch and prevent the fungus from fusing that layer. Plus this would stimulate it into producing more sclerotia. But this can not be done until the fungus has managed to reach the nutrient layer.

But this doesn't explain what happened with the pyrex bowl I have and the lump it formed.
In the pyrex bowl agar prep. I supplemented it with a drop of neomycin,proxamine antibiotic cream.
The morel grew and had no problem with it I even posted images of the rhizomorph like formations.
And here once again in a mason jar the same situation occurs (in the pics down below), a mason jar that was supplemented with the same antibiotic. Now hopefully it will react quicker and produce large lumps at some point but it may have been motivated by a bacteria or competitive mold that was not seen, yet which I believe was there.



In the pyrex bowl



In the mason jar





And even in this mason jar it formed small sclerotia, btw this is a classic black morel spawn.



Inside, once populated with spiky tufts of small sclerotia is now a lot of vegetative growth



Here's something I found strange about the PBS special. If you watch Mills dump out the dirt from the jars you'll see the tiny screen that separates the nutrient poor layer from the nutrient rich layer.

I don't think its used to induce the fungus into the sclerotial stage but rather to make it easy to separate the dirt from the grain.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/23/08 09:55 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9303069 -

Hey AcidHorse,


yes, competition and disturbance might be the thing we are after.

I am thinking about substrates without grain, so I can grow them without sterilizing anything. With yellow morel on straw/horse manure I had good growth and a few SKs forming in and above the top layer (expanded clay pellets). After reading your posting, I shook it. Now I am curious if more SKs will appear.

As soon as my worms produce enough compost, I will test it also.

Another possibility could be adding activated charcoal to the covering layer. For other mushrooms, which usually need a casing layer with active microbes, charcoal works in sterilized casings.


Carsten


Edit: For SKs below the surface we may need more air exchange, allowing the top layer to get dry.

Edited by Mycelio (11/24/08 10:05 AM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: Mycelio]
    #9309451 -

You should at least see some new growth in a week. That seems to be the amount of time
for any new growth. And based on what the patent says "After about one week" and "colonize the tray in about one week" seems there is a one week delay.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9313331 -

I wouldn't take anything in the patent as being accurate.  In fact, at least 90% of what I've read in their patent isn't even related to the patent process at all.  It looks as if they're trying to lead people astray, while buried in that patent somewhere is one little jewel about how they pulled it off, or a step that needs to be taken.  The rest sounds like they made it up.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9316345 -

Yeah, that's true.

But when I showed my grandfather the patent, he said that it had to be a working concept that worked just that way otherwise they wouldn't give them the patent.  I think they've worded things in
a tricky way so that it could have essentially double meanings or more than one meaning.

But given that the patent throws up a range of values there could be only one valid value that works.

Like 50°F-80°F when it should only be 64.4°F or 75%-95% RH when it must be no less and no more than 80% RH.

Or the drying when he says less than 75% when he could mean it has to dry out to drought like conditions.

Things like that make it more complicated and harder to find.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9316553 -

Lots of bogus patents are given out - the people who work in the patent office try real hard, but they can't always be experts in all of the fields that they need to be.

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: frankenstoen]
    #9319457 -

Yeah I think Mills shouldn't try to monopolize on it because everyone that knows what a morel is... knows they grow in the spring and nobody is going to buy exclusively from him when they can get it for free.
He should've started a market for them or wrote a book on how to do it or got a Nobel for being part of the discovery. Nobody wants to be spoon fed morels. Besides it is only of interest to the enthusiasts like us. The rest of the population: "that doesn't know what they are"...could care less about them and there are those who know of them but don't have an affinity for them like us.
I think Mills is impeding science.

But from what I have seen it looks like Midsummer Organics is another bust deal, the site is down and that can only mean one thing, another company that can't go anywhere with it.

You'd think Mills would get with an electrical/mechanical engineer instead of Berglund, and design something that makes it possible for everyone to grow morels. At least start a manufacturing business that at most gives jobs to those who don't have degrees, unlike the 50 or so jobs DNP created for Scottville MI where a bachelor's degree was a requirement and mandatory. Those jobs were only for the elitists: people who didn't need money.

Besides if they create something to do just that...who are you going to buy that equipment from?
Of course Mills' people because they are the ones that have been growing the morels.

Its like processors: its either Intel or AMD and not JohnnyCrackCorn's company from east boofu.

But no... Mills and Berglund are busy selling off the "American secret" to the french and the swedes:
Formula: 0

So if you find morels in the stores in the future they will say on the container: "Product of France" or "Product of Sweden".

And of course if there is general labor or skilled labor needed in the plants you'll have to be a citizen of that country because DNP will "outsource" those jobs to them.

Why? cheap labor.

Edited by AcidHorse (11/27/08 08:53 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9319643 -

This site is an community-driven open-source effort, like Wikipedia or Linux, to share and spread information, so that everyone may prosper. It's based on the idea that everyone can benefit from free, open knowledge, and that helping your fellow man helps you too. Very different from the paranoid-capitalist mindset that many Americans suffer from, in which information is power, secrets are wealth, monopolies are good and education something to be feared, controlled, and eliminated where possible, lest those that you are oppressing discover that they need not be oppressed.

More and more people are cracking the secrets of the morel mushroom - it's only a matter of time.

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9319726 -

AcidHorse said:
Its like processors: its either Intel or AMD and not JohnnyCrackCorn's company from east boofu.
 


In 2007, the companies with the largest share of the microprocessor market were[3]

    * Renesas Technology (21 percent)
    * Freescale Semiconductor (12 percent share)
    * NEC (10 percent)
    * Infineon (6 percent)
    * Microchip (6 percent)
    * Fujitsu (5 percent)
    * Matsushita (5 percent)
    * STMicroelectronics (5 percent)
    * Samsung (4 percent), and
    * Texas Instruments Semiconductors (4 percent)

Other notable microprocessor design companies include:

    * Intel
    * Advanced Micro Devices (AMD)
    * IBM Microelectronics
    * AMCC
    * ARM Holdings
    * MIPS Technologies
    * VIA Technologies
    * Western Design Center
    * Sun Microsystems
    * CPU Tech

Hehe, notice AMD and Intel are on the "other notable" list. AMD and Intel just have hold of the desktop/laptop pc market for now. IBM still makes CPU's but seeing them in consumer use is rare these days. You only hear about Intel/AMD because that's what all the pc builders (Dell, Gateway, HP etc) shove down our throats with their ads.

Sun Microsystems has an 8-core CPU out which Intel and AMD have yet to do.

Anyways, back to the hand at matter. Just wanted to show off a morel culture that Lipa gave me.

Its M. deliciosa!


Think this culture would do good using your technique?


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus species prints. Msg me for trades.

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: frankenstoen]
    #9319801 -

frankenstoen said:
This site is an community-driven open-source effort, like Wikipedia or Linux, to share and spread information, so that everyone may prosper. It's based on the idea that everyone can benefit from free, open knowledge, and that helping your fellow man helps you too. Very different from the paranoid-capitalist mindset that many Americans suffer from


No very few, just Bush and his oil buddies, and corporations, businesses big or small.
Actually there is only one word for them: Republicans

Quote:
, in which information is power, secrets are wealth, monopolies are good and education something to be feared, controlled, and eliminated where possible, lest those that you are oppressing discover that they need not be oppressed.

More and more people are cracking the secrets of the morel mushroom - it's only a matter of time.



--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9319890 -

BlimeyGrimey said:
AcidHorse said:
Its like processors: its either Intel or AMD and not JohnnyCrackCorn's company from east boofu.
 


In 2007, the companies with the largest share of the microprocessor market were[3]

    * Renesas Technology (21 percent)
    * Freescale Semiconductor (12 percent share)
    * NEC (10 percent)
    * Infineon (6 percent)
    * Microchip (6 percent)
    * Fujitsu (5 percent)
    * Matsushita (5 percent)
    * STMicroelectronics (5 percent)
    * Samsung (4 percent), and
    * Texas Instruments Semiconductors (4 percent)

Other notable microprocessor design companies include:

    * Intel
    * Advanced Micro Devices (AMD)
    * IBM Microelectronics
    * AMCC
    * ARM Holdings
    * MIPS Technologies
    * VIA Technologies
    * Western Design Center
    * Sun Microsystems
    * CPU Tech

Hehe, notice AMD and Intel are on the "other notable" list. AMD and Intel just have hold of the desktop/laptop pc market for now. IBM still makes CPU's but seeing them in consumer use is rare these days. You only hear about Intel/AMD because that's what all the pc builders (Dell, Gateway, HP etc) shove down our throats with their ads.

Sun Microsystems has an 8-core CPU out which Intel and AMD have yet to do.

Anyways, back to the hand at matter. Just wanted to show off a morel culture that Lipa gave me.

Its M. deliciosa!


Think this culture would do good using your technique?


Well yeah Intel/AMD but you know what I'm getting at.

My technique? I always think I'm uncovering the Ower/Mills patent secrets.

Try some jars prepared with pasteurized and unpasteurized mulch. the mulch should be like casing but a shallow depth.

But before putting the mulch inside the jar do a few that are like half and half, some containers that are sterilized gravel/grain and a few that are pasteurized gravel/grain.

But ending up with a layer configuration of mulch/gravel+sand/grain.

But seeing that the morels love the wood mulch and will form sclerotia in the mulch, I would say also include some mulch in with the grain as well. Maybe boil the mulch in a dextrose water solution then mix with grain then top it off with sand/gravel and then pressure cook it or pasteurize it.

Then there is the issue of filters.

Try that out to see if it results in larger sclerotia.

I know what I'm looking for and I've seen them baseball or softball sized before.

Granted it was baseball (actually softball) sized due to a significant development of sclerotia.

Of course those were found on or next to a huge tree and their size was most likely due to the fungus sucking out nutrients from the roots or sucking off something that was sucking the nutrients out of the roots.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/27/08 03:04 AM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: Mycelio]
    #9324391 -




Here's some information I thought you'd like to take a look at.

In the "Notes on the development", the radially arrayed hyphae most undoubtedly is a "micro-sclerotia" or EES or SK but it must be like a satellite connected to a larger one.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/30/08 02:56 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9327169 -

Wow, thanks for sharing!

Carsten

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: Mycelio]
    #9330035 -

I also have made some attempts to grow Morels, without success. (I'm not trying hard enough)

-Graham


--------------------
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Mushroom Supplies. Fast Turnaround Times. Great Service.
orders@mycopath.com
enter code shroomery for 10% off product.

www.FungiForum.com

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: Cryogenicz]
    #9337809 -

It is more than likely necessary to pasteurize the mulch layer that should be on top of the nutrient poor layer. Then of course the grain layer underneath the nutrient poor layer.

It appears that is what the patent has been pointing out but it also throws in the verb autoclave.

If you autoclave, you sterilize and if you PC, you sterilize. That kills everything.
If you pasteurize, it leaves some microbes that help cut down on the growth of contaminates. Pasteurize at 135°F - 140°F.
Use a filter disc so that moisture in the mulch will dry up.

You could pasteurize all layers or just the mulch layer; the rest sterilized.

nutrient poor layer should be at least 1 - 4 cm deep.

The bacteria or microbe that causes the morel to form much larger and sufficient growth of sclerotia, is most likely out in the woods where you found the morels. So it might be a good idea to pasteurize that stuff and use it as the mulch.

Not sure if the hardwood mulch you buy from Home Depot will have that
bacteria or microbe. Since that stuff remains dry.

It is obviously susceptible to dryness.
Which means during rainy seasons like spring and fall it must be active.

OakChild,
"I am trying my hand at it right now. I grew 2 1 pint jars of morel myc on rye grass seed, and am now trying to get sclerocia growth by putting it in a non-nutritious substrate."

OakChild you can't do that. You have to have it already in the jars.
grain layer first, nutrient poor layer next, then mulch layer last.
Even the grain layer can be supplemented with wood mulch as well.
Or wood mulch sawdust.

The foil barrier isn't foil from what I've seen in the PBS show. It was a screen like a stormdoor or screendoor would have.
And it appears its used to keep the grain and the soil separate.

And its important to allow the jars to go through summer-like conditions
due to the need of a little drying, for at most a month.

There is a deadline. One month.
This is what I believe is going on.

It is still possible to do something outdoors because it is wintertime.
Stamets pointed out that putting sclerotia out in the winter would keep the fruitings localized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Won't stimulate it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakchild 
I don't really see the difference, can you please explain that more? The way I am doing it I take the 100% colonized rye grass seed and lay it out in a tray, then I put a bunch of soil on top (like a really thick casing layer) and let the myc grow into that. The way you are describing it, the myc has to enter the casing at the same time as the food. From info I have read in books about morels it seemed as though the trigger for sclerotia formation was the sudden lack of nutrition.

I haven't dug into my trays yet (Still letting them dry). They are due to be checked actually. <Crosses fingers>

AcidHorse, keep sharing your experience with the morels. This is something I really want to learn how to do. Have you gotten successful indoor fruitings?


Blessings,
Oakchild

8-)



No the trigger is a hinderance to get to the food, it seems that the lack of organic material around it stimulates it to form sclerotia. But it depends on the species. Black morels will form lots of little sclerotia right off the bat, yellow takes some time.

so
--------------------------
LID
--------------------------
mulch 0.25 inch <------------------pasteurize (There's going to be competition going on in here)
--------------------------
sand+gravel+mulchdust 1.0 - 4.0 cm <-----------sterilize
--------------------------
rye grass seed 1.0 inch<-----------------sterilize
--------------------------
or everything can be pasteurized.

You can't use that soil you talk about unless you have leached it 4 times. It has to be nutrient poor. And really the nutrient poor is a barrier to the nutrient rich layer.

I would never use potting soil or peat moss that dark black like soil because it does something to the morel. It will grow but it will never form sclerotia. It stays vegetative. This is due to the soil being nutrient rich. The darker the soil the more nutrients it has.

If you colonize grain, you've just given it the food source. Yeah it might form little itty bitty sclerotia, but you need sclerotia that are large. And the sexual cycle will not commence to any appreciable extent in the presence of external nutrients.

Doesn't this configuration look familiar to you?
Remember mushrooms that by default grow on wood alone, if they are found to be growing on the ground it is due to the fact that wood is underneath the ground.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/30/08 02:38 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9337983 -

Quote:
oakchild said:
I don't really see the difference, can you please explain that more? The way I am doing it I take the 100% colonized rye grass seed and lay it out in a tray, then I put a bunch of soil on top (like a really thick casing layer) and let the myc grow into that. The way you are describing it, the myc has to enter the casing at the same time as the food.


Morels are aware of gravity.

Let's say we are dealing with regular yellow morels or regular classic black morels (not M. tomentosa of Montana).

In the eastern hardwood forests, say beech trees.

You have a humus layer in the woods and underneath the humus layer is a sedimentary layer.

What you think is casing is just a humus layer.
Morel spores are going to hit that humus before the ground.

Another thing I want to point out is the symbiotic relationship with trees.
I don't believe in this.
If it were true then there would be morels growing in the fall.
Because the same conditions that exist in the spring, exist in the fall as well.
Plus every tree in the woods would have a morel growing next to it which is not always the case.
Giant morels tend to grow next to trees which looks facultative.

So this bacteria or microbe, most likely a bacteria; must not do well in the summer and must rely on its endospores? to survive the heat.
It does well in the spring and the fall and is dormant in the winter.

Does it trigger fruiting? or does it only influence formation of the right amount of sclerotia?

I do believe that sclerotia are forming immediately in the spring as well as the fall.
But hardly in the summer due to dry conditions.
However its not always dry in summer.

Another thing, the bacteria may be breaking down nutrients into a usable form peptones, amino acids, glycerides, fatty acids those sort of things. And the morels are then feeding off them.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/30/08 04:01 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9338196 -

If starting out with spores I would allow growth to occur at temperatures near 70°F
Then after it has made it to the grain, go up to 80°F

Remember total darkness is needed.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/30/08 04:22 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9338443 -

Another thing I've noticed about morels growing in woods are sink holes or depressions in the ground.
I've found them growing around the rims of these. It appears water sits in these depressions where bacteria would fester.

Plus finding morels near river banks is another big reality. Same bacteria may be present in these locations.

Then there is the fact that morels tend to "hug" the trails in the woods, say a state nature preserve. Trails intentionally made.

Those tend to be more like depressions.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (11/30/08 04:47 PM)

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9390245 -

Mycelio said:
With yellow morel on straw/horse manure I had good growth and a few SKs forming in and above the top layer (expanded clay pellets). After reading your posting, I shook it. Now I am curious if more SKs will appear.


AcidHorse said:
You should at least see some new growth in a week.


Two weeks after shaking the top layer nothing happened, no new sclerotia, no new growth.

Carsten

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Re: Morel sclerotia jars need pasteurization [Re: Mycelio]
    #9479862 -

can someone draw up a diagram of the layers there have to be to form sclorotia ie t5he nute poor and what not


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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