OrgoneConclusion said:

For the sake of this thread and so as not to get side-tracked (heh - like that won't happen!) we shall assume that evolution is factual and use your own defintion of intelligence. This thread started from a discussion about the possibility of intelligent alien life in the universe. But is it a given even if there is other life out there?

If intelligence is some sort of natural by-product of enough time and evolutionary pressure, and not a fluke, then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?

I am only somewhat joking. The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. Let's not forget that many animals 'needed to' develop intelligence and went extinct instead.

What is the X factor? (NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MUSHROOMS! )

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zouden said:

OrgoneConclusion said:

The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. 

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Actually, there is. The theory I heard is that it's all to do with the grasses competing with the trees. Grasses are a relatively recent development. They can compete quite well with forests, and large parts of Africa became grassland (savannah) in place of jungle. This put pressure on jungle-dwelling animals such as the primates. Faced with dwindling living space, some ventured out into the savannah, a place dominated by the apex predator of Africa: big cats. Those primates were essentially forced to live in a place they weren't used to, competing against animals that could thrive there. The solution was to evolve intelligence.

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DieCommie said:

Wait, you think shrooms helped us evolve intelligence?  wtf?    What about the millions of other species that have chowed down on shrooms and are still dumb as shit?

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Quote:

That last line, should be all the evidence you need.

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Quote:

The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

I didn't really phrase my opening statement to represent what I was going on about. I was thinking about the Drake Equation and SETI and the assumption that any planet stable enough for a long enough time will develop intelligence. With a sample size of one (the earth) is is impossible to know either way at this time, but I doubt that even given 'proper' conditions that life will generally somehow 'steer' either intentionally or accidentally, towards higher intelligence past a certain point: i.e. the ability to acquire food and energy, reproduce and generally survive.

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cube talk said:

I believe drugs have had a much greater influence on the human being then can be accounted for.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

For the sake of this thread and so as not to get side-tracked (heh - like that won't happen!) we shall assume that evolution is factual and use your own defintion of intelligence. This thread started from a discussion about the possibility of intelligent alien life in the universe. But is it a given even if there is other life out there?

If intelligence is some sort of natural by-product of enough time and evolutionary pressure, and not a fluke, then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?

I am only somewhat joking. The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. Let's not forget that many animals 'needed to' develop intelligence and went extinct instead.

What is the X factor? (NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MUSHROOMS! )

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I must use this quote.
For this topic i find it most suitable and share my opinion with the following..

"If we’re looking at the highlights of human development,
              you have to look at the evolution of the organism...
              and then at the development of its interaction with the environment.
              Evolution of the organism will begin with the evolution of life...
              perceived through the hominid...
              coming to the evolution of mankind.
              Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon man.
              Now, interestingly, what you’re looking at here are three strings:
              biological, anthropological--
              development of the cities, cultures--
              and cultural, which is human expression.
              Now, what you’ve seen here is the evolution of populations,
              not so much the evolution of individuals.
              And in addition, if you look at the time scales that's involved here--
              two billion years for life,
              six million years for the hominid,
                      years for mankind as we know it--
              you're beginning to see the telescoping nature of the evolutionary paradigm.
              And then when you get to agricultural,
              when you get to scientific revolution and industrial revolution,
              you're looking at        years,    years,      years.
              You're seeing a further telescoping of this evolutionary time.
              What that means is that as we go through the new evolution,
              it's gonna telescope to the point we should be able to see it manifest itself...
              within our lifetime, within this generation.
              The new evolution stems from information,
              and it stems from two types of information: digital and analog.
              The digital is artificial intelligence.
              The analog results from molecular biology, the cloning of the organism.
              And you knit the two together with neurobiology.
              Before on the old evolutionary paradigm,
              one would die and the other would grow and dominate.
              But under the new paradigm, they would exist...
              as a mutually supportive, noncompetitive grouping.
              Okay, independent from the external.
              And what is interesting here is that evolution now becomes an individually centered process,
              emanating from the needs and the desires of the individual,
              and not an external process, a passive process...
              where the individual is just at the whim of the collective.
              So, you produce a neo-human with a new individuality and a new consciousness.
              But that's only the beginning of the evolutionary cycle...
              because as the next cycle proceeds,
              the input is now this new intelligence.
              As intelligence piles on intelligence,
              as ability piles on ability, the speed changes.
              Until what? Until you reach a crescendo in a way...
              could be imagined as an enormous instantaneous fulfillment of human,
              human and neo-human potential.
              It could be something totally different.
              It could be the amplification of the individual,
              the multiplication of individual existences.
              Parallel existences now with the individual no longer restricted by time and space.
              And the manifestations of this neo-human-type evolution,
              manifestations could be dramatically counter-intuitive.
              That's the interesting part. The old evolution is cold.
              It's sterile. It's efficient, okay?
              And its manifestations are those social adaptations.
              You're talking about parasitism, dominance, morality, okay?
              Uh, war, predation, these would be subject to de-emphasis.
              These would be subject to de-evolution.
              The new evolutionary paradigm will give us the human traits of truth, of loyalty,
              of justice, of freedom.
              These will be the manifestations of the new evolution.
              That is what we would hope to see from this. That would be nice. "

Yes it would It will

Quote:

Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

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Veritas said:

Well, whatever New Age label one chooses to apply to progress, it does not become evolution.  Nor does the "old" evolution cease once the so-called "new" evolution begins.  We can work on progress as individuals as much as we like, but our evolutionary process remains the same.

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Im not sure he's talking about simply progress. With the introduction of nanotechology, cloned/engineered bodyparts, who can say in a matter of decades these and offshoot sciences wont be altering our genes? Thus while not evolution by natural selection, its still evolution of a sort. Which I guess is why he labelled it "old" and "new"

Veritas said:

Well, whatever New Age label one chooses to apply to progress, it does not become evolution.  Nor does the "old" evolution cease once the so-called "new" evolution begins.  We can work on progress as individuals as much as we like, but our evolutionary process remains the same.

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I beg to differ.
I can consciously accelerate my personal evolution.
And by saying this .. i do the same for others who have an open mind and havent heard it before , but have wondered.
People sometimes find comfort in the old way..
Not scared.. just not ready for the change which is long overdue.
Everything is different now that we have CHOICE.For us.. And for our surroundings.
Btw.. Your definition on evolution is only from the Biological POV..
Isnt that just another label ?

jivJaN said:

              You're talking about parasitism, dominance, morality, okay?
              Uh, war, predation, these would be subject to de-emphasis.
              These would be subject to de-evolution.
              The new evolutionary paradigm will give us the human traits of truth, of loyalty,
              of justice, of freedom.

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