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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9432016 -

i'd like to start doing aya once every 1-2 weeks with the occasional break.

lsd - once every few months
mushrooms/mescaline - once a month

it would be an escape if i didn't enjoy being sober, but that isn't so.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9432045 -

deCypher said:
Somehow, tripping every weekend for the rest of one's life seems not very enlightened.

At what point do these drugs cease being a tool for spiritual growth, and at what point do they start being a crutch for escape from sober reality?


when you stop applying the wisdom you gain from them (or not applying any wisdom at all for that matter)

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: adrug]
    #9433359 -

I think that people make a mistake by isolating themselves while tripping, and not putting themselves in an optimum situation. A good balance might be once a month, with the right preparation.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9435880 -

I find this question perplexing. Most of the people in this forum seem to be atheists. So how do atheists grow spiritually?

I also think most of you smoke pot and drink alcohol. I think those are the things that are an unproductive a crutch for escape from sober reality. Tripping is a productive escape from reality.

How do you know there aren't more messages to come?

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: mushroom people]
    #9435888 -

I take the liberty to assume that atheists grow spiritually thru the scaly beast of drama.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9436024 -

I make the call 3 or 4 times a year.  Have definitely learned that I have to be in the right frame of mind.  Last time, shortly after I became single, a friend and I took a trip.  I ended up crying on his shoulder most of the night. 

Thankfully it was a good friend, and maybe I needed that, but I'm still embarrassed about the way it turned out.  I don't think there's a rigid set of rules about how often one should do this.  Like everything else everyone has their own schedule.


--------------------

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: mushroom people]
    #9436923 -

mushroom people said:
I find this question perplexing. Most of the people in this forum seem to be atheists. So how do atheists grow spiritually?

I also think most of you smoke pot and drink alcohol. I think those are the things that are an unproductive a crutch for escape from sober reality. Tripping is a productive escape from reality.

How do you know there aren't more messages to come?


Atheism and spirituality are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  I can feel the presence of God using psychedelics, experience mystical communion through ganja, and embrace the rapture of the Cosmos via entheogens--none of these experiences imply the objective existence of metaphysical beings, but neither do they deny the feelings of spirituality that I glean from them.  Honestly, spirituality is the best word I've found that describes the vast sum of positive, life-affirming experiences that result from these psychoactives, but use another word if you dislike its connotations.

Besides which, pot can be quite the enjoyable entheogen when used in combination with meditation.  Far too many people abuse it, I agree--but take a month-long tolerance break and smoke a fat bowl in solitary darkness, and I guarantee that your opinion of the herb as being "unproductive" will change.  It can dramatically boost creative insights (at the expense of the logical thought necessary to act out these insights, I'll agree), and it significantly helps with inducing trances and out of body experiences.

One man's crutch is another man's life-line.  Alcohol to a much lesser extent than ganja, IMO, but a few drinks can certainly make life rosy and inject some joie de vivre into social companionship.  Just like anything, abuse of a substance can produce negative results.  Use infrequently, and use with careful mind to set and setting.  Pounding down a few handles of Smirnoff is just as unproductive as being enveloped in a foggy, memory loss-ridden haze 24/7.

That being said, I agree with you that I'm unsure as to whether more messages will come.  I think psychedelics can give valuable insight, but one has to wonder what the use of all this wisdom is that they are supposedly imparting you.  One can certainly live a serene, happy, enlightened life without the use of psychedelics--what need does a guru or meditator of forty years have for LSD, apart from the fun of seeing all the pretty colors flow down the wall?  IMO, psychedelics can give you needed insights to change your life for the better; once this is done, they are no longer necessary, and in fact, may be detrimental if abused.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9437428 -

Quote:
One can certainly live a serene, happy, enlightened life without the use of psychedelics--what need does a guru or meditator of forty years have for LSD, apart from the fun of seeing all the pretty colors flow down the wall?


I don't see why a guru or long term meditator wouldn't want to induce a spiritual experience using a psychedelic.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Epigallo]
    #9437463 -

Perhaps because it might not be necessary?  They're tools like any other after all; if one can hammer in a nail with a precision tap then why use a mallet?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: mushbaby]
    #9437499 -

Atheism and spirituality are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

:thumbup: You summed up my response to Mushroom People pretty well, but unless you have actually been an experienced guru I don't think you know what their desires would be.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Bernackums]
    #9437505 -

Quote:
Bernackums said: unless you have actually been an experienced guru I don't think you know what their desires would be.


Naturally, but one can certainly speculate.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: mushroom people]
    #9437510 -

So how do atheists grow spiritually?

The same way theists grow spiritually, except they are wholly responsible for their actions.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9437524 -

Agreed, but hasn't there been alot of conversation on enlightenment being a journey and not a destination? Would psychedelics always be a useful tool for development?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Bernackums]
    #9437598 -

To be honest, I think enlightenment is such a vague word that almost no one is properly qualified to dictate what enlightenment is, what it is not, and who has or does not have it.  Certainly I have experienced things through the use of entheogens that at the time I called enlightenment, but these experiences are probably not the same from person to person... does this disqualify my experience?

IMO, enlightenment is realizing a bit of more truth in our lives.  Whether it be enlightenment as to the source of our personal motivations or enlightenment as to the nature of the social game around us, anything that unveils a bit more of reality counts.  To claim that it's about the journey and not the destination seems more like a vague platitude than anything meaningful; optimally one should try to realize the truth at all times, yet this does not mean that the ultimate quest is futile.

Meditation and living a serene life will bring these moments into one's perception at a much more frequent pace and will promote a longer duration than the rocket ship of psychedelia that quickly ascends to the Mt. Veracity and then descends just as quickly, unless one keeps on tripping--but IMO this is far more taxing and in the end less worthwhile than pursuing sober enlightenment.  Undue stress to the neurological system, possible HPPD, and psychedelic-induced depression and anxiety make this a path fraught with dangers as opposed to the slow, but steady path of finding inner, sober peace.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9437619 -

deCypher said:
Perhaps because it might not be necessary?  They're tools like any other after all; if one can hammer in a nail with a precision tap then why use a mallet?


I'm not convinced the average waking consciousness of a long term meditator is that similar to what is experienced when having a spiritual experience on a psychedelic. Maybe the guru/meditator would just choose to enjoy a rich experience as much as anyone else.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Epigallo]
    #9437627 -

Oh, for sure.  I'm not denying he might want to out of curiosity, etc... just that he wouldn't need to use them on a consistent basis.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Epigallo]
    #9437652 -

bradley said:
Quote:
One can certainly live a serene, happy, enlightened life without the use of psychedelics--what need does a guru or meditator of forty years have for LSD, apart from the fun of seeing all the pretty colors flow down the wall?


I don't see why a guru or long term meditator wouldn't want to induce a spiritual experience using a psychedelic.

Some famous spiritual teachers like Meher Baba thought the use of psychedelics was spiritually degrading.  I don't share that view, but there are definitely quite a few gurus, Zen masters, Tibetan Lamas, and the like, who feel that psychedelics lead to imbalance and needless detouring on the path to liberation.  Probably most of those people have not taken psychedelics.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: deCypher]
    #9437679 -

When you say he wouldn't "need" to use them,
do you mean he wouldn't be as impacted by the experience?
or what exactly distinguishes psychedelic usage by someone who is more spiritual cultivated?

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Epigallo]
    #9437687 -

Well, what benefit do you personally reap from psychedelic usage?

If one is already serene and content, what further point is there in using a psychedelic apart from curiosity?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: When you get the message, hang up the phone... [Re: Lion]
    #9437694 -

Lion said:
bradley said:
Quote:
One can certainly live a serene, happy, enlightened life without the use of psychedelics--what need does a guru or meditator of forty years have for LSD, apart from the fun of seeing all the pretty colors flow down the wall?


I don't see why a guru or long term meditator wouldn't want to induce a spiritual experience using a psychedelic.

Some famous spiritual teachers like Meher Baba thought the use of psychedelics was spiritually degrading.  I don't share that view, but there are definitely quite a few gurus, Zen masters, Tibetan Lamas, and the like, who feel that psychedelics lead to imbalance and needless detouring on the path to liberation.  Probably most of those people have not taken psychedelics.


I recently read a short chapter of a book called Zen-Brain Reflections where the author criticizes psychedelic usage. He put forth a very poor argument. I think its the message versus messenger deal.

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