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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
The Message and the Messenger
    #801392 - 08/07/02 04:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Seems some here don't know how to distinguish the two, and when the distinction is important and when it is unimportant.

Unimportant:
Dr. X comes up with a new mathematical proof. His proof should stand or fall on it's own merits. The fact that Dr. X is a pedophile is totally irrelevant.

Important:
President B2 expounds on the evils of drugs and increases penalties for their use while snorting a gram of coke per day.

President B1 expounds on the benefits of democracy and freedom while dismantling the Constitution and establishing puppet governments in third-world countries.


Unimportant:
Author Y writes a best-selling novel (fiction) about discovering spiritual truth and Author Y is a wife-beater.

Important:
Author Z writes a best-selling book (non-fiction) about achieving marital harmony and Author Z is a wife-beater.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePaleE
journeyman

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Who are you? And why do ...
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801464 - 08/07/02 05:29 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

this reeks of self...
I see no advancement towards spiritual development here.
the only relevence exisits in this almost laughable frail consciouness and language (of all things)...
c'mon...
you don't really care about any of the reasons you posted these examples, do you?
And it's all maliable like...umm..water, maybe.

Unimportant:
Dr. X comes up with...
-->pretty DAMN fucking important to the kid who's getting dick rammed up their ass! I dunno about you, but fuck the proof! I'm rootin for the kids gettin clever enough to avoid visits to Uncle Dr. Perv!

Important:
President B2 expounds...President B1 expounds...et Nauseum....
Not at all to me. OUtside my current realm of imeddiate influence...Fuck it..
that is until I've got a TV network...then maybe i'll see what can be fixed.

Unimportant:
Author Y writes a...
big shocker here...the wife prob thinks it's important. Me too. Oh wait..not..
flip a coin...hahaha!
Important:
Author Z writes a...
oh blessed Irony...but unimportant to anybody who doen't know (care)

it's a switch! It's moral relitivism.
Best way is like water off a ducks back.

just outta curiosity,
Have you been saved?

Hope your day get's better. Roll one up and enjoy this great moment!

Thx,
the pale e


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Anonymous

Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801496 - 08/07/02 05:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Correct.

There is a confusion about when an ad hominem is relative and when it is not. Below is a section taken from the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy:

"Argumentum ad hominem ( literally, argument against the man) is a kind of argument that uses a personal attack against an arguer to refute her argument. In the abusive or personal variant, the character of the arguer (especially character for veracity) is attacked; e.g., 'You can't believe what Smith says-he is a liar'. In evaluating testimony (e.g., in legal cross-examinations), attacking an arguer's character can be legitimate in some cases. Also in political debate, character can be a legitimate issue. However, ad hominem arguments are commonly used fallaciously in attacking an opponent unfairly-e.g., where the attack is not merited, or where it is used to distract and audience from more relevant lines of argument. In the circumstantial variant, an arguer's personal circumstances are claimed to be in conflict with his argument, implying that the arguer is either confused or insincere; e.g., 'You don't practice what you preach', for example, a politician who has once advocated not raising taxes may be accused of "flip-flopping" if he himself subsequently favors legislation to raise taxes. This type of argument is not inherently fallacious, but it can go badly wrong or be used in a fallacious way, for example if circumstances changed, or if the alleged conflict was less serious than the attacker claimed."


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801520 - 08/07/02 06:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Unimportant:
Author Y writes a best-selling novel (fiction) about discovering spiritual truth and Author Y is a wife-beater."

With all due respect Swami.......if the above example is unimportant, then why did you consider it important that Alan Watts was an alcoholic and John C. Lilly a "Ketamine fiend" in that these "facts" undermined any spiritual findings/realizations they might have had..........? Perhaps the answer is self evident and if so I do apologise a priori for my blindness..... Peace


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #801566 - 08/07/02 06:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Not to mention that Alan Watts wasn't a major alcoholic and Lilly wasn't a "major ketamine fiend". I wouldn't worry about swami's silly bullshit.

btw, what happens if take away everyone who was troubled and leave our spiritual insights to perfect people who have never had any problems in their life? bang goes Lennon, Einstein, Dali, Van Gogh..the list is basically endless. Is there anyone who ever came up with spiritual insight who wasn't troubled? Why would you spend your entire life searching for truth and encountering ridicule from fools like swami if you were "normal" or "well-balanced"?

swami, can you provide a list of perfect people from the last 100 years who came up with a spiritual insight?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801578 - 08/07/02 06:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Not to mention that Alan Watts wasn't a major alcoholic and Lilly wasn't a "major ketamine fiend".

Well that's just it man., I DON"t know if those "facts" were/are true, hence the parenthesis........I guess I shoud have done the same with the word "alcoholic", as I have no way of knowing through my own direct experience if these categorizations are indeed accurate


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #801595 - 08/07/02 06:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah i know - swami's facts are usually way off. Lilly wasn't a ketamine addict and we have no idea whether Lilly was an "alcoholic" or whether he just liked a drink. My guess is that he was a troubled guy - as almost all seekers for the truth are - and used various things like meditation, spiritual truth, writing, psychedelics and alcohol to help him deal with his pain. I feel nothing but empathy for seekers like this. It's incredibly difficult seeking truth in a world full of lies and liars. It's a long hard unpleasant road. Staying with the herd is a lot simpler and easier.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801606 - 08/07/02 06:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Unimportant:
Author Y writes a best-selling novel (fiction) about discovering spiritual truth and Author Y is a wife-beater."

Not to overstate my point here or anything, but in my own mind, beating one's wife, or GF is a lot more symptomatic of a deep underlying emotional/spiritual problem than is having a few drinks


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801629 - 08/07/02 07:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

This is not a Watts/Lilly thread. You made your position clear in several nearly identical posts. What do you hope to accomplish by restating once again?

Why not add content and state when you think character and behavior is or is not relevant to a person's opinion/philosophy/writings?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #801643 - 08/07/02 07:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

With all due respect Swami.......if the above example is unimportant,
I consider it different, because a FICTION writer is NOT claiming truth, therefore his personal life is irrelevant.

Neither do I want to make this a Castaneda thread, but I find it odd when some people state that it doesn't matter whether or not Don Juan was a real or fictitious character, the teachings are valid. I would strongly object to that and say it makes all the difference in the world.

then why did you consider it important that Alan Watts was an alcoholic and John C. Lilly a "Ketamine fiend" in that these "facts" undermined any
Am trying to disconnect this thread from that one to downplay any emotionalism, so would rather talk in generalities than continue the same banter here.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801659 - 08/07/02 07:22 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I consider it different, becaus e a FICTION writer is NOT claiming truth, therefore his personal life is irrelevant."


Whoops, shame on me, I hadn't noticed that you had used the word FICTION in your first example

"I Am trying to disconnect this thread from that one to downplay any emotionalism, so would rather talk in generalities than continue the same banter here"

Fair enough


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801667 - 08/07/02 07:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please answer the following question without getting side-tracked (don't relate this to anything else) and maybe we could have a meaningful exchange.

An author comes out with a book on animal training. If its well-written with analysis or problems, corrective exercises and nice glossy photos. You are impressed.

You go to visit the author and are invited into his house. In the hallway, you are attacked by his doberman pincer despite the author's attempts to control the animal. Finally the author gets the animal under control and you go into the living room where you are overpowered by the smell of urine and feces. You look around and notice the the sofa is shredded, the carpets is worn bare by claw marks and the legs of the furniture have been badly chewed.


After you leave, what would be your most likely impression of the author's message on animal training?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801672 - 08/07/02 07:32 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah i know - swami's facts are usually way off.

Alex123: Lilly died at age 83.

Swami: Lilly died at age 86.

Reality: Lilly died at age 86.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #801694 - 08/07/02 07:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not getting into the topic and/or arguements here. Just had to add that according to the definition of addict as accepted by most people, Yes John Lilly was addicted to Ketamine. He went through a period or years when he took it almost daily and for one experiment he consumed 50-100 mg's an hour for 3 weeks straight. Whether he actually met with otherworldly beings or just lost touch with reality is up to others to decide, not me. Just stating the facts as told in his autobiography The Scientist.


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801954 - 08/07/02 09:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Swami: Lilly died at age 86.

LOL, yeah, you were wrong about every single fact about Lilly, you lied about reading his books but at least I worried you enough to do a quick google search and find his age at death. Now all you need to do is read his books


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801974 - 08/07/02 10:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

This is actually a good topic. I will give another example from history here.
During WWII, Nazi doctors performed medical experiments on Jews, including burn research that still helps people today. Should we not use this research because the Nazi doctors were evil?

It is important to seperate the message from the messanger however a "holistic" thinker might ask the question: Where does the messanger stop and the message begin? Some people might say that distinctions are meaningless. I would like to hear from them.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #801975 - 08/07/02 10:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please answer the following question without getting side-tracked (don't relate this to anything else) and maybe we could have a meaningful exchange.

Meaningful? With a childish analogy like that?

We are talking about completely different things. Things that cannot be brought down to such a childish level. Why on earth would you relate spiritual insight with personal happiness? By your logic anyone who is happy must be the king of spiritual insight. The rent collector millionaire who enjoys throwing single mothers into the street when they can't pay the rent. He may be perfectly happy. The mugger who goes in the street and kicks your head in in front of your girlfriend may be wonderfully happy with his life. Jesus Christ was a complete failure in life - he died a pauper, hated by everyone, nailed to a cross. Bill Gates is a complete "success" in life who has probably enjoyed a lot more happiness than Christ ever did. Does this mean Gates should show us the way?

Struggling to attain spiritual insight is often the complete antithesis to happiness in life. The most efficient way of finding happiness in this society is to be content going to work for 50 years, watching soap operas in your spare time and then dropping dead. If you can be happy with that you will never need to drink.

If you want happiness, thinking for yourself and going out on your own is the last thing you want do. Unfortunately that's usually the best way of attaining spiritual insight.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: The Message and the Messenger [Re: Xlea321]
    #802095 - 08/07/02 11:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Meaningful? With a childish analogy like that?
Was trying to establish a baseline, a jumping off point of agreement to see where our differences lie.

Why on earth would you relate spiritual insight with personal happiness? By your logic anyone who is happy must be the king of spiritual insight.
First off I never said or intimated that anywhere, but in reponse to your question I would say that someone who is happy does indeed have more spiritual insight than one who is miserable.

The mugger who goes in the street and kicks your head in in front of your girlfriend may be wonderfully happy with his life.
My analogy is childish? I can safely say that the mugger is not wonderfully happy. When I was robbed at gunpoint last year by a young male who had a Desert Eagle Colt 45, outweighed me by about 30 lbs. and towered some 7" over me, I looked him straight in the eye and saw that he was more afraid than I was. Just an anecdote - so don't read anything more into it.

Jesus Christ was a complete failure in life - he died a pauper, hated by everyone, nailed to a cross. Bill Gates is a complete "success" in life who has probably enjoyed a lot more happiness than Christ ever did. Does this mean Gates should show us the way?
Depends on what one is seeking. If I was to study on how to acquire great wealth and run a successful business then Gates would be the obvious role model.

Struggling to attain spiritual insight is often the complete antithesis to happiness in life.
Seems though that you are mixing the struggle with the attainment. Like climbing a mountain, the going can be tough, but what a view from the top!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Where's my massage? [Re: Swami]
    #802135 - 08/07/02 11:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Shit... this thread isn't about MASSAGES is it?
Fuckin' reading problems... sorry. Though I think an anecdote about massages and messengers could be pretty good. Should I try one?

How about this:
Some messenger goes to some far off colony to deliver some news to the governor, as the emperor hadn?t heard from the colony in almost ten years. When he gets there he notices that when one person is talking to another, the person talking is also giving a massage to his/her listener. The messenger thinks this is really weird. He finally figures out (he had to rub a few people- the "right" way to do things in the colony) where the governor's office is. He shows up and the moment he enters the governor?s office, the governor strips down to his skivvies and lies stomach down on a massage table. No words are spoken until the messenger starts rubbing on the governor.
?Good Afternoon Governor,? says the messenger, ?I bring a message from the emperor??
Once he finishes reading the message, our messenger humbly asks, ?Now Governor, I?m incredibly curious about your rather unique communication customs. Could you tell me about them??
Suddenly, the governor grabs him, forces him down on the table, and begins a ferocious rubdown.
?Well sir, this sort of communication custom traces its roots back to the old days of politically correctness. ?PC? came about when people became terribly worried that their words might offend someone. The thing is, ?PC? was an incredible hindrance on people?s ability to express themselves. No one said anything unique anymore; for fear that some poor chap might be offended, even if it wasn?t their intention to offend. So a few years back someone came up with the massage idea. I must say, it makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to receive bad news when you?re getting a massage? And good news? good news and a massage is heaven. So, now if you have to dish out some harsh criticism to someone, the blow is lessened because the listener, ONE, knows that your intentions are good and, TWO, is more relaxed and docile. Now I know there are some problems with this custom and we have an entire bureau working on solutions. I think one of the better ones was the massage chairs they installed in all lecture halls, theaters, churches, and so forth. We still have a problem with bars as a bar stool can only massage your ass? if only we could figure that one out? Well then??
And with that, he slaps the messenger on his ass and says, ?Tell the emperor I?ll get right to his wishes immediately. Good day, sir.?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Where's my massage? [Re: Sclorch]
    #802147 - 08/07/02 11:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I see I left out a few details... oh well, it's just a rough draft.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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