Home | Community | Message Board


SoulSpeciosa Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Message and Messenger
    #2196058 - 12/22/03 06:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It is oft-repeated, here and elsewhere that the message can be separated from the messenger. This is true in some cases, such as a reporter telling about a traffic accident.

However, as it relates to a way of living or viewing life, I find them to be quite intermingled. Can the message be true even if the messenger is full of it? Yes, it could, but why would one base their's life's decisions/direction on the words of another as if he/she were a person of wisdom when the messenger's life was a mess or the message was fabricated?

Did Alan Watts, an alcoholic, thrice-divorced man with children from several marriages, bring the Tao into his family life or was he merely a good writer?

Was the fiction of Castaneda worth following if he was not a brujo, but a clever novelist?

Or Dr. Phil teaching weight-loss when he is carrying some 45+ pounds of excess baggage - whatever...

Great oratory skills are possessed by many politicians, but that is no guarantee of truth. Why do we think so differently of metaphysical writers and speakers?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2196091 - 12/22/03 06:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Is the "moral" of this commentary... If your gonna walk the walk, you gotta talk the talk? PRactice what you preach? I agree with you in that regard, and ive seen you comment on this in threads before, that people tend to say things about certain ways, but they do not seem to posess this fully within themselves. While i think it has the best of intentions, it can seem contradictory when viewed from an objective prospective. Thats why I try not to say so many things about life, cause i know my life is a mess, i just try to say the things that have helped me find what it is that i say is good, tao, peace, whatever you name it.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2196126 - 12/22/03 06:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

but why would one base their's life's decisions/direction on the words of another as if he/she were a person of wisdom when the messenger's life was a mess or the message was fabricated?





I'm sure you are familiar with ad hominem rebuttles. Sometimes they are useful, but you gotta remember, even a broken clock is right five or six times a day.

Quote:

Great oratory skills are possessed by many politicians, but that is no guarantee of truth. Why do we think so differently of metaphysical writers and speakers?




It is kind of silly to get all of your information from entertainers. While people like Alan Watts, Bill Hicks, Timothy Leary, George Carlin, Madonna, Dennis Miller, or Michael Moore may have entertaining things to say, you have to remember that they are selling a product. They don't nessecarily have integrity, and what they are saying isn't always truthable.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2196132 - 12/22/03 06:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Thats why I try not to say so many things about life, cause i know my life is a mess, i just try to say the things that have helped me find what it is that i say is good...

Amen to that. All of us are deficient in some areas and well-developed in others. Sharing something that has helped you overcome some stumbling block is laudable, but is quite different than someone setting themselves up as some sort of guru.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,946
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2196312 - 12/22/03 08:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

A certain quote comes to mind, I dont remember it exactly word for word, but it went something along the lines of:

"The beauty of humanity is that people can understand and accept great ideas and yet, have the hardest time using them."


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,272
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 5 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2196510 - 12/22/03 09:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I made a thread like this in August of '02.

CLICK HERE

I say "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" is the perfect cliche to explain my position on this issue.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2196881 - 12/23/03 12:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure you are familiar with ad hominem rebuttles.
Huh?

you have to remember that they are selling a product
I don't have to remember that which I consciouly aware of. I am not basing my life on their works, but some believe these writers have "the answer" or at least a part of it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2196964 - 12/23/03 01:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sure you are familiar with ad hominem rebuttles.
Huh?





I guess that isn't very clear. You frequently speak of your superior logic and arguement abilities and you were using ad hominem logic in reference to Allen Watts. So I said "I'm sure you are familiar with ad hominem rebuttles", implying that I wasn't going to explain why someone's personal life in no way determines if what they say is true. An insane man can say it is night outside, but that does not mean that it is daytime.


Quote:

you have to remember that they are selling a product
I don't have to remember that which I consciouly aware of. I am not basing my life on their works, but some believe these writers have "the answer" or at least a part of it.




It was a friendly reminder. When I make condesending assumptions about what you don't know and need to remember, there is no need to demonstrate what you are consciouly aware of.

Now, I don't wanna get off on a rant here, but I pity the fool who bases their life on any work of literature. I also frown upon these self help shmucks who speak of "life changing" books. I consider most writers to be like politicians. They aren't motivated by any truth or greater good, they are motivated by pleasing their constituents. Making your customer happy means making more cashito.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAldous
enthusiast
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 900
Loc: inside my skull
Last seen: 22 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2197203 - 12/23/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
you gotta remember, even a broken clock is right five or six times a day.


Oops, what a fool I am, I thought it was only twice a day (and zero for a digital clock)  :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2197395 - 12/23/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Three things are required for a orator ( in this case writer) to have the power of persuasion over people.

1. Ethos, credibility.
2. Pathos, passion.
3. Logos, knowledge.

However this doesn't mean that ad hominem arguments are constructive or even helpful. Just because Rush Limbaugh was overweight doesn't mean the points he made were untrue. Similarly, a drunk can tell you that alcohol is bad for you.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: ]
    #2197466 - 12/23/03 11:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

my God, what are u doing back here man ?
get your ass back in OTD :grin:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: ]
    #2197563 - 12/23/03 12:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

MM: Similarly, a drunk can tell you that alcohol is bad for you.

Swami: Can the message be true even if the messenger is full of it? Yes, it could...

Did you (and SpecialEd) not read this line or are we all in agreement on this point?

However, why would one overlook the facets of an author/speaker's life when the subject pertains directly to the author's expertise?

Might we not question a doctor's credentials if we find out that he has a phoney diploma (even though he MAY or MAY NOT have real medical knowledge)?

Is it truly wrong to question whether or not Castaneda ACTUALLY studied under a Yaqui shaman when he is claiming to point the WAY to ancient knowledge?

When reading a "How To..." book, I would like to know if the author could actually do it. This is light-years apart than questioning an author's behaviour unrelated to the field which he is claiming expertise.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: ]
    #2197849 - 12/23/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
However this doesn't mean that ad hominem arguments are constructive or even helpful. Just because Rush Limbaugh was overweight doesn't mean the points he made were untrue. Similarly, a drunk can tell you that alcohol is bad for you.




um, one thing about the ad hominem rebutals...
there is a difference in comparing the examples given
(the drunk) to a Mystic who claims to have
found the secret to unattached, perpetual peace and happiness
while simultaneously indulging in drugs, nefarious activities
and appearing to be absolutely miserable and then leaping off
of a tower and committing suicide.
The difference is that there is at least evidence to back up
the claim of the drunk that drinking is bad for you - and this
evidence is completely seperate from the individual (i.e. the drunk).
So, while what he may be saying may be true or untrue, we
certainly are not taking him as an authority - we're making
our judgements based on completely seperate evidence.
The trouble with mystics purporting to "know the way" is
that people accept "the way" because they hold the mystic
as an authority. If the mystic is not following his own
path then the validity of "the path" remains to be tested
- and if no one can test it (i.e. by following it and achieving
said state, then it's useless).


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2198803 - 12/24/03 01:06 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Oh I would say we are in tacit agreement. As I am with lucid's last post.

I think the bottom line is that we have to be very careful about who is saying what. Some people like to think an author has some kind of "edge" on things, particularly if they are selling the latest, greatest, snake oil to personal freedom, personal peace, or personal anything for that matter.

There are proper uses for an ad hominem rebuttal as there are improper uses for one. But there are times when a person can know how to do something but wishes to teach it rather than do it.

As the saying goes, "those can't do educate, those that can't educate administrate".

As a former guitar teacher I was able to teach some of my students to outperform me. This should never be used as an argument that I didn't know what to do. I did. But I spent more time teaching than I did practicing.

And that is where the ad hominem attack becomes difficult and oftentimes breaks down.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Message and Messenger [Re: ]
    #2198824 - 12/24/03 01:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I do not see something as an ad-hominem if the statement is fact and is relevant to the issue at hand.

Case in point is the fact that you have been asked to write an article for a medical journal because YOU LIVED some healing knowledge instead of merely regurgitating it from another source. The knowledge was not new, but your experience gave it (and you - yeah!) life.  :heartpump:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Message and Messenger [Re: Swami]
    #2198868 - 12/24/03 01:56 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Precisely, on both accounts.  :smile:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Message and the Messenger
( 1 2 all )
Swami 1,948 27 08/07/02 01:31 PM
by GRTUD
* Message and Messenger Swami 349 3 08/21/04 10:04 PM
by trendal
* messages spudamore 638 6 07/21/08 01:49 PM
by blewmeanie
* New Spirituality Message Boards
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,420 36 03/16/02 04:37 AM
by Anonymous
* When you get the message, hang up the phone...
( 1 2 3 all )
deCypher 3,951 57 12/15/08 08:45 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* What's wrong with worshiping the "message" not the "messenger"
( 1 2 all )
dr_gonz 3,340 24 01/01/08 03:37 PM
by dr_gonz
* The Ad Hominem
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,287 38 08/26/02 02:29 AM
by Anonymous
* Does Art Always Have a Political Message?
( 1 2 all )
raytrace 3,157 22 04/18/05 08:40 PM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
749 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.048 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 19 queries.