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Invisibleraytrace
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Does Art Always Have a Political Message?
    #4058121 - 04/15/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I came across this idea in writings of Hakim Bey - that art is never without political message whether the creator is aware of it or not.

What do you think?

I would like to see that discussed. I might add later.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4058201 - 04/15/05 11:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

people can always interpret what they want from a piece of art. but 'message' implies the artist is sending something, and if he's not intending his art to be political, then there is no political message.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4058232 - 04/15/05 11:58 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

everything interpenetrates,
art often does get perverted to sell products and to sell ideas including politics.
I would complain if someone called my art political, though they could say that there is a politics inherent in the freedom to paint, to express color relations and tension in a pictorial field.

I would indicate that they are probably suppressing their ability to see without political filters - a kind of unecesary extra step that prevents the more visceral connection potential in art.

some communication has to be manipulative, most art does not have to be manipulative, the effect is more immediate.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4058527 - 04/15/05 01:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Art predates politics by hundreds of thousands of years.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4058540 - 04/15/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Art always has an Aesthetic message.

While a political message is sometimes present, it is not always there.

Certain modern philosophies which deny the possibility of doing metaphysics view politics as the highest human endeavor, Karl Marx stands out here. People who adhere to this world view will see political undertones in every piece of art.

On the other hand, those who believe that metaphysics is possible will see in art a reflection of the foundation of being. St. Thomas Aquinas's theory of the transcendental perfection of beauty is typical of this perspective.

I have a hard time finding a political message in a still life painting of fruit or in a wooden sculpture of a frog. While some may argue for a political interpretation of Michelangelo's Pieta, the work is clearly about the love between a mother and son, and the love of God for humanity. People who see political messages in these types of art fail to appreciate the pieces for what they truly are.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: shroomydan]
    #4059009 - 04/15/05 03:25 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

the deluded can find messages in the most benign occurrances.
I remember a most pained feeling when - upon waking from a dream, I was not able to remember the text on a dreamed blackboard, or when entheogenated unable to decypher neon glyphs dancing on the ceiling.
At some point these messages were (possibly) clear, then lost. really when the messages were most clear I was least awake or most twisted into a dedicated politic


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #4059014 - 04/15/05 03:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Art predates politics by hundreds of thousands of years.

That's totally wrong, politics predates humans by hundreds of thousands of years. The stuggle for leadership and control in a wolf pack is politics. Ape societies have their own kind of politics.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4059634 - 04/15/05 06:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The politically-minded see political messages. On the other hand, there actually ARE messages in some art. Hieronymous Bosch's religious paintings show pigs in priestly garments or nun's habits - both in Hell! In the middle ages, that was a political message.

My amateur art (see Gallery) does not consciously (or unconsciously, insofar as I can analytically perceive it) have any political messages because I am an apolitical person.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4060080 - 04/15/05 07:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

haha thats one of the funniest things I've heard all week


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4060399 - 04/15/05 09:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"I am an apolitical person"
Who did you vote for as president and why?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4060408 - 04/15/05 09:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

In one of Bosch's paintings is a man climbing a ladder with another man behind him who has a nose so long that it goes into the first man's ass. I used to work at a place where I always felt like that first man.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4060680 - 04/15/05 11:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I like to draw and have my own trippy style which represents my own inner rhythms. My drawings usually consist of rhythmic curves and lines that build off of one another, each part dictated by what came before it. Often, if I see that the curves make a shape, like a cloud, I will manifest some kind of "literal" image like a hand or face or whatever.

but I HATE it when people are always like "what is it?" well it's a big mass of lines and curves "oh, hey! It's like a hand here, and like a face here..." well yeah, kinda, but that's not WHAT it is!

I prefer to take things as being neutral. People often say my art is morbid. How can a bunch of lines be morbid!?

Things just are what they are, and people like to PUT meaning into them so they can relate to it.

Of course there IS political art and stuff, but I always hated it how the art teacher in high school would be like "so our project now is on how you feel about the war in iraq..." fucking bullshit...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4060899 - 04/16/05 12:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I voted Democrat because not to vote seems irresponsible, but I always feel like I'm merely voting for "the lesser of two evils. [Fugs]. I do not look at the political level of this reality for explanations, or for hope of a better future. For these, I look to the metaphysics of the Present (or Presence). I vote, pay my taxes and "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto GOD what is GOD's."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4060900 - 04/16/05 12:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm certain that Bosch knew the feeling as well.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4061028 - 04/16/05 01:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So, you ARE political. Everyone is...there is no escaping it. It merely shows you care about your community, our country, and the world.

"I'm certain that Bosch knew the feeling as well."
I always wondered about that one...looks like he had a lot of grievances to air.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4061361 - 04/16/05 02:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i think George Noory is much more likely to talk about politics than art. but thats just me.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: raytrace]
    #4061550 - 04/16/05 04:29 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Art is Anarchy


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #4061816 - 04/16/05 08:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

political cartoonists rendering pigs in priests robes would definitely be political, however, an artist (like bosch especially) may just be afflicted by the political power of the church (as with every other oppression of existence) and he may render from his vision without consciously considering that his work is going to be considered as a message, that he is carrying a message, that he may be rendering a message or doing anything else other than expressing his vision. that vision or dream or hallucination is an organic reaction.
only the completely political person would declare that the organic reaction is politics.
I think you need an affiliation to be political, just being afflicted in a war zone is totally incidental to politics out of control.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4061862 - 04/16/05 09:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Choosing not to vote is just saying "I don't care," or "I'm above the game," or "let others do it for me," which are all decisions with consequences. So, I have to assume a role in the relative world. It's like Julian Beck in The Living Theatre who said, ' Not to kill the baby-killer is to kill the baby yourself.' One must act.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Does Art Always Have a Political Message? [Re: Phluck]
    #4062284 - 04/16/05 01:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Art predates politics by hundreds of thousands of years.

That's totally wrong, politics predates humans by hundreds of thousands of years. The stuggle for leadership and control in a wolf pack is politics. Ape societies have their own kind of politics.




1. [human] Art predates [human] politics by hundreds of thousands of years.

2. complex social structures do not equal politics.

Main Entry: pol?i?tics
Pronunciation: 'p?-l&-"tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: Greek politika, from neuter plural of politikos political
1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
: political actions, practices, or policies
3 a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government) b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4 : the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view <office politics>


3. if we're going to inflate terms and include animals in the discussion. what about birds singing? or what about the forms of the animals themselves? even if we include animals, ART still predates politics.. by billions of years.


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