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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: alphatrion]
    #577140 - 03/12/02 07:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I tend to put more value on the zetatalk material, due to personal experiences with the greys and then discovering the material afterwards and finding that they were on the same... vibration... shall we say.

You remember that old adage... "Its better to be safe than sorry?"  Or how about.. "Be prepared." I think those mentalities should be used more often when dealing with such a situation rather than "Out of sight, out of mind"

Note I do not embrace the end of the world scenario. Yes that is one possible outcome.. 90% of the world dies. But it doesn't have to be that way. We create our own reality. I tend to view the arrival of Nibiru as a new era for mankind in which great changes will occur. A time of accelerated thought patterns and higher vibrational frequencies.

Certainly there might be some destruction, but does not a forest fire renew life? What happens when there is a tidal wave? Is that good or bad? Bad for the people who are in the wave's way, perhaps.. but if those people are polluting the oceans and destroying the balance of nature.. then it is good for the Earth. Who's planet is this anyway? We live on it, it provides us life.. the means for our existance. But we destroy it. Maybe a some cataclysms would do our world some good. *Gasp! he said it!

Scientists have been noticing the drastic Earth changes occuring. First it was Global warming, then El Nino, and all of a sudden there's a record number of droughts, floods, earthquakes, volcanos are becoming active, plague, famine, increased tension in the Middle East leading to war.. hey just what's going on here?

I'm prone to believe the most logical thing. I was told that these Earth changes are a result of the 12th planet's sudden entrance into our solar system. It's gravity effected all of the planets in some way, it being a foreign object and all. Changes in gravity that effect the very core of our planet. Now to me, a new gravity pulling at the magnetic core of the Earth is likely to have some effect on the surface. And as this foreign gravity gets closer, I would expect those effects to become increasingly significant. So far I have not been disapointed. The changes continue increasing in intensity, almost exponentially.

(Current level Earth) Science has yet to give me a rational explanation as to why these changes are occuring. So I'm going with the one that sounds most logical. "These changes are happening for a reason" or "These changes are happening for no reason"

I see the future as a time of great healing on Earth. Changes occuring on every level of existance. What we see right now is merely the intro to the show. Soon humanity will be faced with its biggest challenge... taking responsibility for their actions. Right now certain emotions are being exagerated to cleanse them from our emotional bodies. Such as prejudice, hatred, greed, jealousy, lust, gluttony, etc. etc.. These changes aren't just physical earth changes.. they are emotional and spiritual changes as well. This effects everything on Earth down to the smallest level. This is not something that is exempt from your place of work, school, family, friends or even your own mind. Everything is changing. We can either refuse to change and see how that works for us... or change with it. You could perhaps compare this to eating food. Sure, you can inject nutrient solutions into your veins, or shove the food up your nose, but I would prefer to use my mouth.


Contrary to popular belief I don't blindly accept anything I read or hear. But when I experience something I tend to believe it. Then if I read something that goes into detail about what I experienced that tends to reinforce my belief in that experience. When this comes from many different sources it reinforces that belief even more. Certainly the minute details dont all line up... but the meat of the message remains. If I had a person stand in front of a group of ten people and have those ten people observe that person for one minute, and then a week later ask them  to describe that person in detail to me, I think I would get some conflicting results. Some people would say he had green eyes, others would insist his eyes were brown. However I think everyone would agree that a person was in fact there.

Oh I'm just full of analogies tonight.
Basically I think that our society would benefit more from spending time researching these claims rather than wasting time debunking them.


And no LearyFan, I'm not going to forget about you guys, I still love you all :laugh: 


Edited by Shroomism (03/12/02 07:58 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: CynicalMagician]
    #577156 - 03/12/02 07:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Checking out shroomism's page shows numbers that niribu is 4x as heavy and 23x as dense, meaning that:
EarthM = 1
NiribuM = 4
EarthD = 1
NiribuD = 23
V = M/D
NiribuM / NiribuD = NiribuV = 0.17

which means that Niribu is 17% of the size of earth. So, which is it? 4x as large or 4x as small?


On my page it says Nibiru has 4 times the mass of Earth, not weight. It's weight is 23 times that of the Earth's. By size it is not 23 times the size of Earth due to its chemical makeup, such as less silicon than on Earth.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #577205 - 03/12/02 07:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Who said that Nibiru moves at exactly 1,000 mph? This sounds like a number he pulled out of his ass.
Unlike your hard data about this mysterious planetoid...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: alphatrion]
    #577217 - 03/12/02 08:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

And about the channeling I really don't want to start a religious flamewar here.
Oh, come on. Incite away. I do - it's fun!

But there are is so much contradictory information in channeling ...
Everyone knows that a believer's logic does not take consistency into account.

...and so many people that don't notice this and just put these kinds of information on their homepage without critical thought...
You are proposing critical thinking on this board? That in and of itself is not rational.

... that it becomes difficult for truthseekers to know what is what.
Why does a truthseeker ever need to accept someone elses premise? It is VERY important for people to understand that there are NO authorities, only people claiming to be such. Become the master of your own destiny.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCynicalMagician
enthusiast
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 231
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #577393 - 03/12/02 11:13 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"On my page it says Nibiru has 4 times the mass of Earth, not weight. It's weight is 23 times that of the Earth's. By size it is not 23 times the size of Earth due to its chemical makeup, such as less silicon than on Earth. "

What? The only difference between mass & weight is that mass is the absolute mass of some object or another, and weight is the amount of force that pulls down on that object due to gravity (ie on earth it's 9.8 newtons per kilogram). Your above sentence makes no sense, because weight and mass are directly proportional, even on an interplanetary scale.

What I was showing with the above numbers (which, even despite your reply, still stand) is that there is a large amount of inconsistency with the "facts" as to how big this planet is. If I rely on the numbers that were given in alphatrion's post, specifically this part:

"I just read the link you sent from Hazelwood, and looked at it briefly:
In August, 1988, a report by Dr. Robert S. Harrington of the U.S. Naval Laboratory calculated that its mass is probably four times that of Earth. Planet X is 4 to 5 times larger than of earth, 20-25 times its mass and nearly 100 times as dense. X is a professional wrestler of the planetary community compared to other planets of our solar system. It is a slow smoldering brown dwarf star."

and compare them to the numbers that I got off your page, Shroomism:

"This planet has 4 times the mass of Earth and is 23 times as dense."

then you find that not only does the Hazelwood number set not work out through common math (as outlined in my above post), but also, if you assume that there was just some math error in the Hazelwood numbers, then your numbers don't match up to the Hazelwood numbers in the slightest. Hazelwood says the planet is 5 times the physical size of Earth, your numbers say it is 20% of the size of Earth.

I don't want to be a nit picky dick, but these numbers don't make any sense. What gives?

Added via edit:

I looked around zetatalk for their niribu size numbers and came up with "...though a large planet, 4 times as large as Earth and thus larger than Mars or Pluto...", suggesting more size problems. These also don't agree with your numbers on your page.


--------------------
----------------------

"Order some golf shoes," I whispered. "Otherwise, we'll never get out of this place alive. You notice these lizards don't have any trouble moving around in this muck - that's because they have ~claws~ on their feet."


Edited by CynicalMagician (03/12/02 11:16 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: CynicalMagician]
    #577630 - 03/13/02 07:12 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Read the third to last paragraph of my second to last post on this thread

Oh... mass and weight are two different things. Related to each other perhaps, but different all the same. That's like saying magnetism is the same thing as gravity.


Edited by Shroomism (03/13/02 07:43 AM)


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OfflineCynicalMagician
enthusiast
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 231
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #577725 - 03/13/02 10:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

OK, you're really off here.

"weight Pronunciation Key (wt)
n. Abbr. wt. or w
A measure of the heaviness of an object.
The force with which a body is attracted to Earth or another celestial body, equal to the product of the object's mass and the acceleration of gravity. "

"mass Pronunciation Key (ms)
n. Abbr. m Physics. A property of matter equal to the measure of an object's resistance to changes in either the speed or direction of its motion. The mass of an object is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight. "

F(weight) = m(mass) G

G is a constant, so the relationship between the two is a directly proportional. Therefore, if something has 4x the mass, it will have 4x the weight, and vice versa. Obviously they're two different things, but for the purposes of this argument and yours and the numbers listed above, they're the same.

And to continue the analogy, we're not arguing whether the man had green or brown eyes, we're arguing whether the man was 3 or 30 ft tall.


--------------------
----------------------

"Order some golf shoes," I whispered. "Otherwise, we'll never get out of this place alive. You notice these lizards don't have any trouble moving around in this muck - that's because they have ~claws~ on their feet."


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Offlinealphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #578196 - 03/13/02 10:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, dear shroomism, it took me much energy to write this and i hope you will view it as constructive.

I tend to put more value on the zetatalk material, due to personal experiences with the greys and then discovering the material afterwards and finding that they were on the same... vibration... shall we say.

Yes, I know what you mean, i have the same with other sources. Have you entertained the possibility that the sources you have can be wrong or setting you on the wrong track? Not all aliens or messages are benevolent although they can sound like that.

Contrary to popular belief I don't blindly accept anything I read or hear.

I am sorry to say I really cannot deduce that from your reply or from your homepage - you don't cite sources for example, and you don't state that the numbers and data shouldn't be taken literally like you suggested in your answer. I really want to belief otherwise. What are you expecting of your readers? To blindly believe you? I think some percentage of people that will stop by your page blindly believe it because you didn't encourage them to do research, don't you think this is irresponsible? I find it at least inconsistent of you. But maybe I am not really fair... you just started your page and want some positive feedback on it - maybe you can start with my comments?

But when I experience something I tend to believe it. Then if I read something that goes into detail about what I experienced that tends to reinforce my belief in that experience.

Ok - I understand what you are saying, I also search the things i like and agree with on the internet. But are you aware that there is a great risk that this method tends to lead you further away from truth? You are biased and looking for confirmation thereby shutting yourself of from critisism... you only see what you want to see... so you get no step further.. only through conflict, reflection and exchange of different ideas you can get further along. If you want someone to better explain it then me.. read Karin Knorr-Cetina or Bruno Latour, they were talking about how scientists often do the same and block scientific progress.

When this comes from many different sources it reinforces that belief even more. Certainly the minute details dont all line up... but the meat of the message remains.

Thank you for the analogy, i understand it. I would agree with you if the the minute details were not big differences (but this appears to depend on ones view). If we are talking about a 3rd density nibiru than you must have something in your eye - read my questions, read the other arguments - read about what Sitchin has to say about what you state on your homepage (see my previous post) and last but not least the sceptic page: http://www.planet-x.150m.com/ (which is ofcourse a bit demystifying... but that shouldnt matter if we are talking 3rd density). I leave it to you if you want to dismiss that last link as 'waste of time' or 'coverup'.

Ok, so it is not in the differences and it's not in 3rd density - it is about the 'meat of the message'. The physical 3rd density Nibiru CANNOT be this meat of the message because there are to many problems: Is it a brown dwarf, is it a planet, do creatures live on it... every choice has to many problems if you compare it with other information. Maybe we shouldn't talk about the details then - but WHY are those details on your page then? What is the 'meat of the message' then? Well I think it COULD be the Nibiru 'idea'... an apocalyptic myth/archetype that can transform our consciousness or/and a 4th density object that cannot be adequatly described in 3rd density terms (like you and zetatalk seem to do)... if it is 4th density it cannot approach us in predictable 3rd density time (2003) can it? So if it is 4th density/metaphorical/mythological why don't you put that in your page in order to warn people not to interpret it as a physical thing? And why doesn't zetatalk do this? If you would put on the page 'this should be treated as an adventure in mythology and not so much as a fact because this distracts you from the real meaning..... etc.' i wouldn't really have problems with it.

A important quote in this context of Jacques Vallee whose ideas about UFO's and aliens find most interesting:
"... If UFO's are acting at the mythic and spiritual level it will be almost impossible to detect it by conventional methods. ...UFO's cannot be analyzed through the standard research techniques, if they are the means through which man's concepts are being rearranged. All we can do is trace their effects on humans and hope that we eventually stumble on some principle that explains their behavior"
-- Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact; Jacques Vallee, 1988

Basically I think that our society would benefit more from spending time researching these claims rather than wasting time debunking them.

I am saddened that you view my post this way. I base this assumption on your final remark and your lack of response to my questions, please tell me i am wrong.
Although i clearly stated that i was not trying to debunk them and actually was researching them with an open mind. I read your reply multiple times over and over... I couldn't make anything from it. I am not trying to debunk your Nibiru, Troubled Times or Zeta's or whatever source you have... I am trying to make sense of them... i noticed internal inconsistencies that i really need to answer.. or maybe i really need YOU to answer them. You cannot make a homepage and consider yourself immune to this social responsibility, you expect me or others to read what you write - than i expect you to clarify things if readers have questions. How do you research something if you cannot ask questions? I literally said that i was not debunking them, so I really want you to answer my questions. You may skip question [1] and [2] because they are about those little details and can be seen as debunk questions (although i really don't mean it that way!).

[0] Have you considered the 'collective mythological unscounsciousness' (Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell) as a working theory for you experiences and the zetatalk material? This means that you Nibiru is not actually approaching us in this physical 3rd density.

[1]
Can a brown dwarf travel so fast and get so close in it's orbit around the sun? Have you verified this with people knowledgable in astronomy? How can you judge it to be true if you did not? Astronomers should be able to verify it. A brown dwarf is really to big to be Nibiru.

[2]
How can its mass be probably four times that of earth in one sentence and in the next be 20-25 its mass? Compared to Jupiter this planet is a baby and cannot have this gravity effect on these distances.

[3]
So according to this info people who are using Sitchin as an authorative argument on 2003 are consciously or unconsciously spreading misinformation. Or http://www.sitchin.com has been hijacked and is NOT the official homepage of sitchin and cassiopaea is spreading disinformation - what is your choice? You are using concepts that originated from Sitchin to support an idea he distances himself from.

[4]
Zetatalk is accusing the author of the link YOU gave me: Mark Hazelwood that he plagarized all the material for selfish reasons:
http://www.zetatalk.com/index/px2003.htm
So first you give me the link you based your ideas/homepage on: Hazelwood and then you say you recognize much in Zetatalk. So Hazelwood is a very bad guy in the eyes of Zetatalk - should i forget about Hazelwood? Why did you gave me the link in the first place then if you have done your own research?


[5]
IMO the cassiopeae site is direct disinformation.
But in the channel department of the site behind the Hazelwood article, the webmaster states about cassiopaea:
These are very long and may take time to load but be patient-they are worth it. I have also added on these pages a scientific correlation article that was posted 4 years after they were received-great stuff.
Why do you think it is "direct disinformation?" Because it is critical of Mark Hazelwood or Nancy's Nibiru ideas?

[6]
If you agree that there is a lot of disinformation going on - how do you propose to counter this? Or maybe you just accept many different views that contradict eachother? Does this mean you shouldn't believe in Nibiru to much?

[7]
Have you considered the possibility that your sources are severly misguided? Or that your experiences are not what the seem to you now? How have you found out that they were right? This is an important question because many people have found out that they have been misguided in this way.

[8]
Is Nibiru 4th density or 3rd density or real on a spiritual level... if it is 4th density why is it described as 3rd density without saying that this is a severly distorting way of approaching a 4th density object? If Nibiru should be seen as something spiritual, the time and outcome isn't fixed and it could well be the same as The Wave (cassiopaea), which could be a more sophisticated representation of Nibiru. This wouldn't contradict your personal experiences.

I apologize in advance if i misrepresent your view somewhere (this is not my intention) - you are welcome to correct that. I respect your dreams and experiences but if the answer you gave me reflects your personal research i really doubt you have been precise enough and that you are deluding yourself or you are being deluded for some reason. You must decide for yourself if you want to answer my seven questions, i just had to get it of my chest so you know that for me your answer was unsatisfactory (although i REALLY tried). The astral plane is a heavenly but also dangerous place for the human body, mind and spirit - that is why i respond the way i do - please see my post as a honest constructive question.



Sources/approaches that I found of tremendous help in this regard:

Jacques Vallee - http://www.conspire.com/val.html
Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, archetypes and the collective unconsciousness
Karin Knorr-Cetina and Bruno Latour
Cassiopaea channelings



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Offlinealphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: CynicalMagician]
    #578204 - 03/13/02 10:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

F(weight) = m(mass) G

G is a constant, so the relationship between the two is a directly proportional


I hate to be nitty pick CynicalMagician but G is a constant if you are on Earth. It is different for every other planet including nibiru (if it would exist as 3rd density). But even then there is still something wrong with the numbers.
But maybe we shouldn't view Niniru as a physical thing with physical properties, but more as a collective unconscious thing. The Nibiru narrative/myth just adds to the power of this archetype.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #578245 - 03/13/02 11:48 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Basically I think that our society would benefit more from spending time researching these claims rather than wasting time debunking them.
This is a derogatory statement to those researchers that end up disagreeing with your findings.

The implication is: that reseachers that end up finding fraud or misperception are "wasting their time". If that is the end result of their research then they must debunk the claim, but those that agree with your views are investing their time wisely.

Should a disinformant or charlatan be debunked? Most certainly! Is that a negative thing? Only if one wants to stay in illusion, hence the unbridled anger by so many believers towards skeptics.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/15/02 10:11 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: alphatrion]
    #578347 - 03/14/02 02:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok I will try and answer your questions as best as possible.

What are you expecting of your readers? To blindly believe you?

Not at all. I expect my readers to read what I have to say and then decide if they want to believe it or not. If they have doubts they can do the research. If they don't want to believe anything I say that's fine. If they blindly believe everything I say then I doubt my words are very dangerous to them.. someone who blindly accepts something they read on a random webpage made by someone they don't know, I think that would be the least of their concerns. They would likely blindly believe everything they see on TV, in the movies, anything anyone tells them, etc.. I cannot prevent that. However since you brought it up I will put a disclaimer on my webpage saying *Nothing on this webpage is true, but its exactly the way things are. If you blindly accept everything I say without doing any actual research yourself then you should see a psychologist. How does that sound?

To be perfectly honest with you, I find the notion that someone would read my webpage and believe everything without ever trying to confirm those things themselves to be quite rediculous. Sure it could happen, but that person has bigger things to worry about than being deluded about then some rogue planet.

http://www.planet-x.150m.com/

Standard debunking material.. nothing new.

So if it is 4th density/metaphorical/mythological why don't you put that in your page in order to warn people not to interpret it as a physical thing? And why doesn't zetatalk do this? If you would put on the page 'this should be treated as an adventure in mythology and not so much as a fact because this distracts you from the real meaning..... etc.' i wouldn't really have problems with it.


But it is to be interpreted as a physical thing.
The 4th density is still in the physical realm. And it is meant to be taken literally. Sub-atomic particles vibrate at a specific frequency, in the 3rd density.. 9,000-12,000 times per second. In the 4th density it is 12,000-15,000 times per second. This means that something in the 4th density is less dense than something in the 3rd. However it is still physical. Nibiru may reside in the 4th density, but this means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Our own Earth has every vibrational level in the Universe. The 4th density only means that something is at a slightly higher vibrational pattern than something in our density, like air. We cannot see air, but does it not effect us? Air vibrates at a higher frequency then say... a rock. I am tired and probably not making any sense so I will leave this for now.

I am saddened that you view my post this way. I base this assumption on your final remark and your lack of response to my questions, please tell me i am wrong.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend you. You are indeed wrong, I did not intend that debunking thing towards you, it was more of a general statement. I'm sure Swami will be here any minute to cut a single sentence from a large paragraph and respond to it by telling me how deluded I am. Most of the people who ask me questions like these are not serious and are only looking to either get a rise out of me or find holes to punch in my logic. I now feel as though you are indeed asking me serious questions, so I will give you serious answers. I hope you can understand my position, I instinctively put up my defenses in such situations from being attacked so many times for my beliefs. You are not attacking me, but asking legitimate questions without waiting for me to respond so you can tell me how I am a stupid cult leader or something, and I respect that.

Can a brown dwarf travel so fast and get so close in it's orbit around the sun? Have you verified this with people knowledgable in astronomy? How can you judge it to be true if you did not? Astronomers should be able to verify it. A brown dwarf is really to big to be Nibiru.

I'm no astronomer, and I don't know any. However even if I did, I would not trust our knowledge on Brown Dwarfs. We know close to nothing about space. We have not so much as travelled out of our own Solar System to see what things are like in other places. It is ignorant to think we have all the answers about something by studying it from our VERY limited Earthly perspective. Until a scientist goes to every star, planet and brown dwarf in the Universe and does thorough research and comes back with conclusive results... I am not going to accept any scientific knowledge of the Universe as fact. Space is very different than Earth. And we can only observe and make theories.

How can its mass be probably four times that of earth in one sentence and in the next be 20-25 its mass? Compared to Jupiter this planet is a baby and cannot have this gravity effect on these distances.


Beats me... I think that until someone actually measures it, the numbers are always going to be off. All I know is that it is much, much bigger than the Earth. Like the size of our moon compared to Earth. Jupiter is a gas planet, a Brown dwarf planet is very dense. That makes a BIG difference.

So according to this info people who are using Sitchin as an authorative argument on 2003 are consciously or unconsciously spreading misinformation. Or http://www.sitchin.com has been hijacked and is NOT the official homepage of sitchin and cassiopaea is spreading disinformation - what is your choice? You are using concepts that originated from Sitchin to support an idea he distances himself from.

I hadn't even heard about Sitchin until I came to this board a couple years ago. I have never read any of his books, but have read some of his material online and I find that some of his material is incorrect based on my own opinion. I can understand his position, however. I think the majority of what Sitchin wrote is true.. but no one can be right 100% of the time. Like I said I don't blindly accept everything I read. I have a brain, I can think for myself, I would hope that other people can too. Sitchin presents the facts and put his own meaning to them. I do that too. I'm not saying my position is the correct one, but it is correct based on my observations as myself. What is correct for you is what you logically accept and put your own meanings to. Not everyone is going to put the same meanings on something, even if they are looking at the same thing. I could see a cloud and think "Oh wow its a great big castle" and someone else could see it and think "wow look at that Dragon". I saw a castle, so that's what I saw. It's true that I saw a castle. But it is also true that the other person saw a Dragon. Who is right? Who is wrong? You are right and I am right because truth is how we chose to interpret that image. We both looked at the same thing and saw something different. How is that possible? Truth lies in the eye of the beholder. Hopefully that made some form of sense.

Zetatalk is accusing the author of the link YOU gave me: Mark Hazelwood that he plagarized all the material for selfish reasons:
http://www.zetatalk.com/index/px2003.htm
So first you give me the link you based your ideas/homepage on: Hazelwood and then you say you recognize much in Zetatalk. So Hazelwood is a very bad guy in the eyes of Zetatalk - should i forget about Hazelwood? Why did you gave me the link in the first place then if you have done your own research?


I dont doubt he did that. I saw many similarities in the information provided. I put up that link because it was a new one I had discovered recently and I felt it provided a good overview of the topic without scaring people away like zetatalk tends to do. Yeah sure forget about him if you want, I didnt really like his "Everyone's gonna die" attitude anyway. Anyway I have stumbled across many different websites through the years dealing with the 12th planet, and they have come and gone, but Zetatalk remains firm. I did not realize that Hazelwood had taken all his material from the Zetas. Thanks for pointing that out.

IMO the cassiopeae site is direct disinformation.
But in the channel department of the site behind the Hazelwood article, the webmaster states about cassiopaea:
These are very long and may take time to load but be patient-they are worth it. I have also added on these pages a scientific correlation article that was posted 4 years after they were received-great stuff.
Why do you think it is "direct disinformation?" Because it is critical of Mark Hazelwood or Nancy's Nibiru ideas?


Hey maybe Hazelwood is in cahoots with the cassiopaea people? I don't know really. That site let me with a distinct feeling of propoganda/disinformation. After re-reading the Hazelwood site, I noticed some slight similarities. Its more like reverse anti disinformation. I think that "Nancy's" ideas are quite solid. Solid indeed. Nothing I have read on that page has been proven wrong so far. However there is a LONG list of things they did predict that did happen.. very specific things. I don't know... someone show me some of her ideas and prove them wrong and maybe I will think twice. But until then..

If you agree that there is a lot of disinformation going on - how do you propose to counter this? Or maybe you just accept many different views that contradict eachother? Does this mean you shouldn't believe in Nibiru to much?

I think there is an almost overwhelming amount of disinformation going on and has been for quite some time. I really don't think there is any way to counter it other than for people to realize which one is speaking the truth and which one is spreading the lies/misinformation. It's a very fine balance I have come to notice, the contradictions. You should believe whatever you believe and is true for you. If you don't want to believe in Nibiru too much... that is... keeping an open mind about it but not accepting it until you see concrete proof that is quite fine. That seems to be most people's position on it anyway. Then you have people like me that have absolutely no doubts at all about it, then you have people like Swami who say it is completely rediculous. It's like a complex dance. We keep each other in balance. Where you fit in the lineup is your choice.

Have you considered the possibility that your sources are severly misguided? Or that your experiences are not what the seem to you now? How have you found out that they were right? This is an important question because many people have found out that they have been misguided in this way.

If MY sources are severly misguided then so be it. I have experienced what I have experienced, if that is some great big deception to keep me from seeing the actual truth then I will discover that eventually. However the things I have been told by my guides ring true deep inside. But when a roomfull of 8 people feel the presence of aliens telling them things, half of which do not even believe in aliens, and then surgical procedures are done to their brains in which afterwards they find themselves with remarkably increased telepathic abilities... and everyone vividly recalls the experience and said that there were definetely beings there that night, thats an experience I dont care where you are from. The fact is I have personal experiences with the Zetas and have learned to distinguish the difference between a malevolent being and a benevolent one. For someone to tell me I was imagining all of this is a bold statement. Step in my shoes for a day and then tell me what I experience is not real. It is VERY real. I use the term abducted lightly but when you wake up and find yourself in a brightly lit room with beings taking tissue samples from the back of your knee and find yourself paralyzed and wake up the next day in your bed where you had gone to sleep at your friends house earlier and find a scar on the back of your knee, then tell me what you experienced was not real. As Zetatalk goes over very thouroughly, there are two types of 4th density beings. Those who are service-to-other, and those who are service-to-self. You could also see it as benevolent or malevolent beings. I have had experiences with both. Fear and deception are indeed the most commonly used tool of the service-to-self, but a trained eye can recognize this VERY easily. No service-to-self beings will ever fill you with the unconditional love, respect, and understanding that the service-to-others beings do. Certainly the dark can play tricks with the eye, but the light is unmistakable. It is quite easy to be decieved by such beings, especially if you want to be decieved. But if you seek the truth, the love, and the light, then that is what you shall recieve. It is very clear cut. The Zetas are also not the only beings I have had contact with. If you read the page you know they are completely devoid of emotions. They operate purely on the intellectual/logical level. I cannot properly function being around beings like that, so I sought contact with other more integrated beings, who have both aspects of the mind in harmony, the emotional/creative side, and the logical/intelligent side. Those contacts are much more fulfilling, and that is how you know if you are being decieved. A deceptive being will leave you feeling empty, alone, scared. No service to other being will instill those feelings in someone. You will feel loved, respected, and understood. It is very clear cut.


Is Nibiru 4th density or 3rd density or real on a spiritual level... if it is 4th density why is it described as 3rd density without saying that this is a severly distorting way of approaching a 4th density object? If Nibiru should be seen as something spiritual, the time and outcome isn't fixed and it could well be the same as The Wave (cassiopaea), which could be a more sophisticated representation of Nibiru. This wouldn't contradict your personal experiences.

Nibiru resides in the 4th density. As I explained previously, the 4th density is still in the physical realm. Not until the 5th density is something completely spiritual matter. The 4th density is merely a less dense version of the 3rd. More spiritual, less physical, but it is still physical. The timeframe of Nibiru's arrival has been calculated by the Zetas taking into account the time constraints of our 3rd density and their 4th. I trust their calculations. Also, there is much higher forces at work here than something like time. Regardless of whether Nibiru passes or not, our world is being forced to change. Nibiru is merely the physical manifestation of this change. A reason, an excuse for the change to occur.

I just want you to know I really do appreciate your constructive criticism, and I hope my responses help you to better understand my position. I had pretty much decided to leave this board and drop out as moderator to leave the Shroomery for good due to the overwhelming negativity I feel here at times. However I've got too many good friends here to give that up. And you helped since now I know that I can have a critic who isn't concerned about making me feel stupid. Thank you. You have given me a new hope.  If I failed to answer any of your questions adequately, or you have any more, let me know and I will do my best to answer them. But now it is 2am and I must sleep for the physical world requires that I earn money so that I can live in my house and eat food. Until that day...


:heart: Love and Light :sun: 


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Offlinealphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #580025 - 03/15/02 09:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for your previous reply, i am glad you responded... i now understand your position a bit better.

Nothing on this webpage is true, but its exactly the way things are. If you blindly accept everything I say without doing any actual research yourself then you should see a psychologist. How does that sound?
Sounds like the title of a book :-). If it is a heartfelt paradox it sounds good to me ? but you must do whatever yo want. Unlike you I really do think there are lots of people who ?want to believe? who would be ofcourse sceptical but would believe what you are saying if it is coupled with meditiation/chakra?s because they think then it could be valid knowledge. Also you have to look around you on a paranormal convention to look at how na?ve people can be. There is a possibility you are feeding this naivity? but maybe it?s the responsibility of the listener himself? the messenger is just the messenger? You must decide for yourself what to do.
http://www.planet-x.150m.com/
Standard debunking material.. nothing new.

Some debunkers are asking honest questions ? are open to different possibilities and still have the same questions. Also some questions on the site are also my questions ? does this mean I am a debunker ? a nonbeliever and therefore not to be taken seriously? I also don?t like the ?debunk? for the sake of ?debunking? attitude? but we don?t have our minds for nothing you know: science has good and bad (limiting) sides. Poining at 1) how limited science is and 2) that debunking is part of a conspiracy (including questioning) and that 3) those who not believe are wrong ? are dangerous arguments because you close yourself of. I am not saying you do, but I see a risk in how you approach it.
A small example? in one of my previous post I thought about the speed Nibiru should have to arrive around 2003 ? this speed must be huge ? but with my limited knowledge of astronomy I can?t really judge.



You say it is speeding up because of the fact that object with an orbit like an goes faster in aphelium? This idea/knowledge has come from astronomy? so why for example wouldn?t you accept the knowledge that comes from the current known laws of physics that says that according to defintion and laws of physics a brown dwarf with the reported mass of nibiru cannot be true? It sounds like arbitrary interpreting laws/data to fit belief. It?s tricky? and you can?t just state things without being sensitive to this issue and the doubts of people who have an empirist approach. I don?t say you are not taking this seriously, I am just talking about my first reaction towards this from your viewpoint understandable remark.

But it is to be interpreted as a physical thing.
The 4th density is still in the physical realm. And it is meant to be taken literally. ?. Nibiru may reside in the 4th density, but this means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Ok, if it physical than the same laws of nature must apply. But 4th density objects cannot be detected by telescopes?. And can?t be seen? they don?t reflect light we can see with 3th density equipment and eyes do they? So maybe it is both 3th density and 4th density?

I'm no astronomer, and I don't know any. However even if I did, I would not trust our knowledge on Brown Dwarfs.
According to all the Nibiru information on the net (including Zetatalk) it is not sure if Nibiru is a planet or a brown dwarf and if it orbits another brown dwarf that doesn?t get in the neighbourhood. Also numbers on mass and sites on various sites seam to contradict eachother or some are inherently/logically incorrect (your page included: see weight discussion). I think we know enough about our universe to judge if Nibiru can be a brown dwarf according to the weights metioned? I don?t think it can be? but like you said until we really measure it and see it we cannot say something about it. Only that it is large and coming at the inner solar system. If you are agreeing with this than maybe it is wise to drop your numbers from your nibiru page or you should put something on your page stating that the numbers are unreliable.

I think the majority of what Sitchin wrote is true.. but no one can be right 100% of the time.
I understand what you are saying. But you didn?t understand my point about Sitchin. On his homepage he distances himself from the ?Nibiru is coming in 2003? ideas. On Zetatak his authority is used to validate the ?Nibiru is coming in 2003? ideas. I think that is not so nice/honest of Zetatalk. Zetatalk also states that ?2003 IS Zetatalk? thus contradicting your claim that multiple pages have info on Nibiru *independent* of Zetatalk. So if you are trusting Zetatalks information are you accepting this behaviour by saying ? not everyone is pure? Or maybe you except it because your aliens are saying the same as Zetatalk.
id not realize that Hazelwood had taken all his material from the Zetas. Thanks for pointing that out.
Maybe more or all the sites have done this and changed it to their liking? It is difficult to find out.

Hey maybe Hazelwood is in cahoots with the cassiopaea people? I don't know really.
No ? if you read both articles this idea is proven wrong (they are contradiciting eachother) unless you think that everyone that is critical/hurting towards Zetatalk is part of a global conspiracy against truth. I personally think this is a bridge to far because then you will loose touch with the rest of humanity (which is bad imo).
I think that "Nancy's" ideas are quite solid. Solid indeed. I don't know... someone show me some of her ideas and prove them wrong and maybe I will think twice. But until then..
If I have the time? I?ll make sure I?ll give them a long hard look? think about the Sitchin issue and the ?Zetatalk IS Nibiru 2003? statement in the meantime.

You should believe whatever you believe and is true for you.
How does posting your belief about for example Nibiru help this process? You don?t say how you have come to this belief on your homepage? it is stated as a fact.
However the things I have been told by my guides ring true deep inside.
I agree that this is a good sign.
But when a roomfull of 8 people feel the presence of aliens telling them things, half of which do not even believe in aliens, and then surgical procedures are done to their brains in which afterwards they find themselves with remarkably increased telepathic abilities...
I severely disagree that this can be a good sign.
Doing surgical procedures on other beings without them being asked is IMMORAL isn?t it? If an alien even if he was friendly etc. would ask me if he could do a surgical procedure on me I would kindly but firmly NO. I don?t know what he will be doing? it?s unnatural and I cannot trust him/it ? because he could be anything/anyone. Even if the things he was saying ?ring true inside?? I would still doubt him.. because even George Bush Sr. can have great true speaches that in practice are just empty shells.
For someone to tell me I was imagining all of this is a bold statement. Step in my shoes for a day and then tell me what I experience is not real. It is VERY real.
I don?t doubt your experience that it seemed VERY real. I doubt that is WAS real. Some drugs could alter ones perception so much that you would believe you were realy seeing it (DMT, K etc)? But why don?t you leave the possibility open that some part of your mind caused this and you were for example just having a vivid lucid dream during waking consciousness in your OWN mind? Maybe these beings are just parts of yourself? Maybe different people see the same aliens because the have the same structure of the human mind. So why are your experiences objective aliens? Wouldn?t an attitude like ? I listen to everything they say but take it with the a grain of salt? because maybe they are just fabrications of my mind? and just accept the experience. If you feel loved, feel loved? if you are given understanding, understand? but don?t necessarely believe in te existence of these beings outside of you. Why would you close yourself of? I would be very concerned if I would have lost (or found) some part of my mind when I would be seeing aliens? there would be no easy way to find out. The problem is how can I keep myself from slipping away? for example if these aliens I trust convinced me that this nibiru thing would really happen and that because of my advanced spiritual being it would be better for me to free myself from my body now to help in preperations to help the wave of spirits of the people that die en mass in 2003? How does it differ from a madman that has voices in his head that tell him he is Jesus Christ incarnated and that he must die again for the sins of humankind? The end result would be your dead body for the people around you. Therefor it could be wise to be critical of yourself because you do not know if you are out of balance, insane or just having REAL contact. The way I do this is stay talking and interacting with ?normal? people to keep reflecting on myself. I don?t say you don?t do this? but when I read pretty strange stuff from you I am a bit worried if you are conscious of this problem. Because if not ? who/what?s keeping you from reinforcing your worldview with similar homepages until your worldview is so rocksolid as a christian who is talking to Jesus, taking the word of god superliteraly and thinks all non-christians will perish in the great fire of armageddon. My personal opinion is that it is not a problem for people to actually belief far out things.. but it is a problem when they start telling you that you don?t know how it is, that you are in the dark, and refuse to answer to questions.
how you know if you are being decieved. A deceptive being will leave you feeling empty, alone, scared. No service to other being will instill those feelings in someone. You will feel loved, respected, and understood.
Ok, sounds as a good critirium.

I just want you to know I really do appreciate your constructive criticism, and I hope my responses help you to better understand my position. I had pretty much decided to leave this board and drop out as moderator to leave the Shroomery for good due to the overwhelming negativity I feel here at times.
Yes, I had a feeling you had that. Thank you so much for responding to my inquiries! I would appreciate a response? you don?t need to answer on all suptopics if you don?t want to/have the time but I would be very interested in your attitude towards aliens who perform surgery and the morals. I would really have a deep mistrust for beings that would violate me (even if the endresult appears to be good).

Vaya con dios


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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: alphatrion]
    #580070 - 03/15/02 11:06 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds like the title of a book :-).

That's because it is. I suggest you read Nothing in this book is true but its exactly the way things are by Bob Frissel.

I think we know enough about our universe to judge if Nibiru can be a brown dwarf according to the weights metioned

I don't.

but like you said until we really measure it and see it we cannot say something about it. Only that it is large and coming at the inner solar system. If you are agreeing with this than maybe it is wise to drop your numbers from your nibiru page or you should put something on your page stating that the numbers are unreliable.


Fair enough. I've got some changes to do to my page anyway once I have some time

The problem is how can I keep myself from slipping away? for example if these aliens I trust convinced me that this nibiru thing would really happen and that because of my advanced spiritual being it would be better for me to free myself from my body now to help in preperations to help the wave of spirits of the people that die en mass in 2003?

Lots of people have done that or are doing that. Terrence McKenna for example. However I chose to stay in the physical realm to help people. That's why I incarnated on this plane in the first place.. to help people during the transition while in the physical body. If you want to leave your body to help the departing spirits that is entirely your choice, no one is going to convince you otherwise. These aliens convinced me that this Nibiru thing was happening and that I would provide the most help in the physical body. Believe me I've wanted to die many times. They assured me that my time is not through yet on this plane and that I still have work to do. I'm not going to leave a mission halfway through.

The way I do this is stay talking and interacting with ?normal? people to keep reflecting on myself

Its not like I sit in the corner by myself all day and come up with these crazy ideas. I have "normal" friends, I have familiy, I have a job that requires I meet with "normal" people all day long. I share my ideas with them. Some of them are even more skeptical than you average Swami clone.

Doing surgical procedures on other beings without them being asked is IMMORAL isn?t it?

Sorry I left out a key point to that. No alien being will ever abduct/perform surgery on.. etc.. any human without that person's subconscious consent. It's against the rules. All telepathic communication is done through the subconscious, and since that is how 99% of them communicate, that is where they ask you. The conscious mind to them is like a bunch of rambling gibberish that they cannot understand. If there is ever going to be any contact with an extra-terrestrial, a telepathic conversation is always first, and if you ever meet with any beings, you have subconsciously agreed to that meeting. Likewise with any procedures. You can always say NO and they must obey. Some people have a hard time saying no though, as can be witnessed by today's society. Which leads to the abductee mentality of "Oh I'm such a victim I was abducted by aliens boo hoo feel sorry for me" The truth is there is no such thing as an abduction, there is only an arranged meeting between two consenting parties.

Ok, if it physical than the same laws of nature must apply.

Yes...the laws of nature always apply. But we don't know all those laws. We haven't even figured out the 3rd density, let alone the 4th.

But 4th density objects cannot be detected by telescopes?. And can?t be seen? they don?t reflect light we can see with 3th density equipment and eyes do they?

Just for clarification purposes, light exists in the 5th dimension, and we CAN see light. We can see it because it is multi-dimensional. Not confined to a single dimension, but does exist in a certain density. The same is true for the Sun, the Sun exists in the 3rd density, but the Sun resides in the 10th. It is multi-dimensional. So are we. Right now you exist in the 3rd density, but at the same time you have a higher self that is residing in a higher density. How is this possible? The Universe. Do I have proof? No.

On a side note. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992052

And When UFOs Land

So maybe it is both 3th density and 4th density?

Indeed. Our very Earth exists in many densities at once. However the current focus is on the 3rd. Nibiru does exist on the 3rd density, but the planet's focus is on the 4th.

In reply to:

Or maybe you except it because your aliens are saying the same as Zetatalk.




Bingo



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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: alphatrion]
    #580073 - 03/15/02 11:13 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I suggest you read Zetatalk some more. Most of the questions you ask me are answered in great detail there, better than I can answer them.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #580130 - 03/16/02 12:24 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Some of them are even more skeptical than you average Swami clone.

What?! *IN A THUNDERING VOICE* I am the Alpha and the Omega of skeptics. All non-believers kneel before me and believers tremble when I speak!

Clones? I knew I should never have let that gypsy woman keep my fingernail clippings. I should have known she was up to no good.

TGIF


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #580132 - 03/16/02 12:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sure Swami will be here any minute to cut a single sentence from a large paragraph and respond to it by telling me how deluded I am.

No need. Alpha is taking over for the pre-summer season.

Besides, how can I slam a certain Nibiru-head that happened to send me a little gift?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: New Spirituality Message Boards [Re: ]
    #580281 - 03/16/02 04:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Its not like I sit in the corner by myself all day and come up with these crazy ideas.

i do.


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