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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality?
    #2367360 - 02/22/04 11:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In essence, spirituality is a very subjective thing. VERY subjective.

At any rate, some people scoff at organized thoughts on spirituality, say, a book. I'm not even mentioning religion here, religion has no place in this discussion. What I am speaking of is spiritual ideas contained somewhere... some people spit on the fact that it can actually have anything meaningful to contribute to ones' spirituality because it is a focused, "textbook" of spirituality, or whatever..

Anyways, I don't see how someone could hold such a view on this. They simply refuse to read such a book because of the fact it has something to do with spirituality, because they feel it insulting to think that someone could write out such on spirituality. As if it contains no spiritual message or something...

What I am getting at is that any spiritual idea we have found on our own HAS came DIRECTLY from our surroundings, from others. Obviously spiritual meaning is something contained only within the individual... but then, so is ALL meaning. ALL meaning is learned, it doesn't come with this physical body and mind. Some ideas naturally seem to hold some spiritual value that people adopt...

Basically, what I am wondering is how someone can consider themselves as someone who holds some sense of spiritual value without being open to seeking out new ideas wherever they may be... I've found spiritual meaning that I adopted from movies, books, people, my own thoughts...

Let's say that Adolph Hitler made a comment once that was very spiritual in nature and a lot of people could identify with... does the fact that it came from Adolph Hitler contaminate the comment's essence in spirituality?

What I'm asking is this: How can someone judge a message before they even heard it, simply by its source?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2368068 - 02/22/04 03:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Let's say that Adolph Hitler made a comment once that was very spiritual in nature and a lot of people could identify with... does the fact that it came from Adolph Hitler contaminate the comment's essence in spirituality?






A broken clock is right five or six times a day.

Quote:

What I'm asking is this: How can someone judge a message before they even heard it, simply by its source?
Peace.




After you have been around the block a few times, one becomes uber-jaded and cynical. They aren't receptive to ideas. My mother and sister are always trying to go on easy diets. They always fail. After a while, I stopped taking them seriously. As soon as they mention diet, I stop listening.

If massive spirituality was easy and attainable, it would have been attained LONG ago. I'm not reading a book that some douche bag wrote. My feelings at least.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2368136 - 02/22/04 03:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but he was an "enlightened" douche bag; says so on the back cover.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #2368146 - 02/22/04 03:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, but he was an "enlightened" douche bag; says so on the back cover.




Good point.  Dou che` Swami, Dou che` (pronounced to che) :lol:


Zen Master Ed has no time for such nomination.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2368164 - 02/22/04 03:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you can learn how to discover your own spirituality, but in the end you have to do the work yourself.

Quote:

Let's say that Adolph Hitler made a comment once that was very spiritual in nature and a lot of people could identify with... does the fact that it came from Adolph Hitler contaminate the comment's essence in spirituality?

What I'm asking is this: How can someone judge a message before they even heard it, simply by its source?



I once took a class on existentialism, and learned about how Heidegger was one of the most influential philosophers of the 20th century, but I also found out that he was a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party. I still don't think that diminishes from his contribution to philosophy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2368192 - 02/22/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not speaking of some book that proclaims to have like the mass path to spirituality or something.... just some dude that felt like writing some things down. hehe. There could be a lot of bullshit in his book, but there could always be something that makes you think. Everyone has a different perspective to be learned from....

I'm not one who reads a lot of books anyways, but there has been a book or two that I have stumbled acrossed that makes a hell of a lot of sense... if I wouldn't have taken the time to pick it up, then I would have never have found out a lot of the shit that has changed me for the better, you know?

If the dude said on the back that the book could show you the way to higher consciousness and I would have held that agansit the book and never read it, then hell, I would have missed out. hehe It would have been like having the oppurtunity to have dinner with Jesus but not accepting because he claimed to be the son of God.  :lol:

*shrugs* I just sort of find that every little perspective has something to offer... look everywhere to see everything, you know? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2368200 - 02/22/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I think you can learn how to discover your own spirituality, but in the end you have to do the work yourself.




Yeah, definitely.  :thumbup:

We learn from others and we learn from ourselves, but it is us doing the learning and us who are doing the experiencing... or something.  :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2368211 - 02/22/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not speaking of some book that proclaims to have like the mass path to spirituality or something.... just some dude that felt like writing some things down. hehe. There could be a lot of bullshit in his book, but there could always be something that makes you think. Everyone has a different perspective to be learned from....




Yeah, that's different. I write stuff down that I feel like. The difference is I'm not trying to make any money off of it.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2368261 - 02/22/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, ja, that's true. However, it is also true that if the dude wants to get other people to read his thoughts, if he feels he has something to offer, the only way he really has is to go through the network of people whose business is selling... especially if he has no other way of making a living. hehe

Well, that can be questioned, because some people ARE out for the money and aren't interested in just making enough to be able to live off of while they continue their art... *shrugs*

But hell, every once and awhile there is one hell of a book and I'll pay money for it... not that I have yet. All I have for books I got by ripping off a book club. :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2368709 - 02/22/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe it is important first to define spirituality. Has anyone ever done that? Hmmm...


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineAngel_Above
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: Frog]
    #13493219 - 11/16/10 04:54 PM (6 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Maybe it is important first to define spirituality.  Has anyone ever done that?  Hmmm...


A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness. He sees the world with eyes not used yet. As he grows up, his parents lay all this stuff on him. They tell him, when they should be letting him tell them. Let the children lead you.  - Charles Manson

It doesn't quite matter who it comes from, it only matters how open to the information you are. SpecialEd... your family members' excitement for their diet probably brings them great satisfaction (even if you know they aren't going to follow through with that) so there is no need to not listen. Be open to what IS.

Nonjudgement is what we have so long forgotten.

I know it's 6 years old. My contribution sucks too. but my perspective does, and always will, matter (materialize).

Peace


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: Angel_Above]
    #13493509 - 11/16/10 05:44 PM (6 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Angel_Above said:
A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness.




I was born in a state of total emotional relief, especially after almost getting caught by the intra-vaginal squid. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13493539 - 11/16/10 05:50 PM (6 years, 25 days ago)

spirituality is something learned

or

it can be learning itself

:shrug:


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (11/16/10 05:51 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: Frog]
    #13494149 - 11/16/10 07:35 PM (6 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Maybe it is important first to define spirituality.  Has anyone ever done that?  Hmmm...




Good point. I'm reading Fowlers Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning. http://www.amazon.com/Stages-Faith-Psychology-Development-Meaning/dp/0060628669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289954342&sr=8-1 He sees faith as the substratum of what people call spirituality. Even the materialist has faith - in sensory perception and the rational mind. We all have a certain amount of confidence i cause-effect, but Fowler sees faith as a separate line of human development, which he says, for example, cannot be reduced to a combination of cognitive development plus moral development. I am only half through so I can't elaborate, but I bought this book because Ken Wilber uses its insights. I also just bought a couple of books by Jean Gebser, because Wilber bases his Integral theory heavily on Gebser's work. In fact, 'Integral' was Gebser's term. Wilber is still very very bright, but now I'm beginning to think that he is not brilliant, because of how heavily he has borrowed from those before him. I regret not having read The Atman Project, which came out a year before I began my own doctorate in human development. I'm now reading Wilber's Integral Spirituality.

One difficulty is the use of the word spirituality which contains the word spirit, from the Latin spiritus. We as Westerners can't help but immediately identify with whatever Sunday school background one was exposed to.
In my case, raised Reformed Jew by a non-spiritual father and an atheistic mother, the word was not a part of home life or Sunday school. Reformed Judaism only taught pseudo-historical stories from the Tenach (OT). G-d was mentioned, but the word spirit suggests presence, or experience of a spiritual reality. This sense was utterly missing - until my first acid trip - but then it seemed like what I had read about the Tao. It was Infinite, It was all-embracing and all-suffusing, but It was not 'a' spirit, or spirit in a theistic sense. It was Life because all of life was contained in It, and it preceded life both historically and ontologically. It was, as the Gospel of Thomas states, 'the kingdom is within you and it is without you' - Logion 3. And this speaks to me now :"I shall give you what no eye has seen and what
no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind." - Logion 17. The Tibetan Buddhist Rigpa. The Clear Light of the Void. Tangible. Palpable. Untouchable.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/17/10 09:40 PM)


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13494308 - 11/16/10 08:00 PM (6 years, 24 days ago)

I see what your getting at. I think the truth is spirituality is not subjective its actually objective. Meaning depends upon people but that does not mean it is there creation and does not have an objective reality. A person becomes meaning by perceiving it and living it but meaning is just meaning.. it exists latently until discovered.

in a sense it has an external objective existence that is latent until the person acknowledges it. No individual can have a monopoly on the truth or meaning.

Hah hope that means something to you. :confused:


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13495528 - 11/17/10 12:05 AM (6 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Angel_Above said:
A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness.




I was born in a state of total emotional relief, especially after almost getting caught by the intra-vaginal squid. :smirk:




:krang: :omgz:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #13497490 - 11/17/10 12:32 PM (6 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
How can someone judge a message before they even heard it, simply by its source?
Peace.




According to Aristotle three things are required for a speaker to be effective:

Pathos (passion)
Logos (knowledge of the subject) and
Ethos ( a good reputation)

People are more likely to consider the words of someone who is morally sound than someone who isn't.  This is doubly true if the ethical violation is lying.

You "learn" spirituality by doing, not reading about it.  You can learn the orthodoxy and orthopraxy from a book, but you cannot learn spirituality without putting those things into practice and adopting the beliefs.


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13499102 - 11/17/10 06:08 PM (6 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
How can someone judge a message before they even heard it, simply by its source?
Peace.




According to Aristotle three things are required for a speaker to be effective:

Pathos (passion)
Logos (knowledge of the subject) and
Ethos ( a good reputation)

People are more likely to consider the words of someone who is morally sound than someone who isn't.  This is doubly true if the ethical violation is lying.

You "learn" spirituality by doing, not reading about it.  You can learn the orthodoxy and orthopraxy from a book, but you cannot learn spirituality without putting those things into practice and adopting the beliefs.




Hence, what one reads doesn't materialize into any personal belief and action. :imslow:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: soldatheero]
    #13500285 - 11/17/10 09:51 PM (6 years, 23 days ago)

When Michelangelo chiseled away a huge block of stone, and all that remained was the figure of David, was that figure latent in the stone like he said? Without his mind and physical talent, David never would have been created. The image arose in his psyche first, and manifested in stone later, but Michelangelo had a monopoly on the particular meaning that he evoked from that marble. We can each have a monopoly on a particular vehicle for Beauty, Truth, Goodness. These universal ideas exist abstractly. Like archetypes, which are invisible and universal, archetypal images are particular. Particulars partake of universality, but particulars can never be the universal Truth.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Is It Possible To Learn Spirituality? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13500305 - 11/17/10 09:54 PM (6 years, 23 days ago)

Well said.


--------------------


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