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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9229980 -

Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: Who wants to be in a small, lawless tribe anyway?


We agree with this only because we've grown up in a large, orderly society that has laws.  Would we also be saying this if we had grown up in a peaceful tribe of the manner that we suggest?

Once we have those material comforts that are only provided via technology and massively lawful organization, it's rather hard to go back.  But it's not such a blindly positive thing as you're suggesting--with the advent of technology we also have governmental surveillance, militaries with incredibly advanced weapons, and the prospects for biological plagues, computer viruses, and hackers.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230004 -

Quote:
We agree with this only because we've grown up in a large, orderly society that has laws.  Would we also be saying this if we had grown up in a peaceful tribe of the manner that we suggest?


I don't know, but that's irrelevant.  We're talking about the real world, remember?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9230005 -

deCypher said:
I'm not arguing in favor of equal distribution of wealth, but it's always funny to hear accusations of undeserved rights being leveled at the other party when one's own stance assumes just as much.


i'm not sure whether that's an argument against socialism or if you are genuinely arguing against the 71% of american economists that say that our current system is unfair or the 80% that say wealth should be more distributed by means of government. i'm very much more inclined to believe the majority of american economists and the past chairman of the fed reserve who served for nearly 20 years, who was appointed in for 5 terms consecutively, than someone on the internet who believes that because we have a capitalist system, that it's fair game that 1% of the population owns nearly half the wealth in our country, while the majority are slaves to wage labor.

it's not hard to figure out that the system is unjust, even a child could figure it out. while people at the lower class are budgeting their finances to decide whether to buy milk instead of bread the upper classes are deciding whether to buy a new cruise boat, or a new private jet, or both!

Quote:
The Gini coefficient is a measure of statistical dispersion most prominently used as a measure of inequality of income distribution or inequality of wealth distribution. It is defined as a ratio with values between 0 and 1: A low Gini coefficient indicates more equal income or wealth distribution, while a high Gini coefficient indicates more unequal distribution. 0 corresponds to perfect equality (everyone having exactly the same income) and 1 corresponds to perfect inequality (where one person has all the income, while everyone else has zero income). The Gini coefficient requires that no one have a negative net income or wealth. Worldwide, Gini coefficients range from approximately 0.232 in Denmark to 0.707 in Namibia.

The Gini index is the Gini coefficient expressed as a percentage, thus Denmark's Gini index is 23.2% (Mathematically, this is equal to the Gini coefficient of 0.232, but the percentage sign is often omitted in the Gini index.)


The UN places the US Gini index rating at 40

Gini indices for the United States at various times, according to the US Census Bureau:
2007: 46.3

Quote:
0 corresponds to perfect equality (everyone having exactly the same income) and 1 corresponds to perfect inequality (where one person has all the income, while everyone else has zero income).


this evidence says that one person acquires almost half the countries income.

edit: forgot to add source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states#cite_note-USCB_IP.26HIC_2006-4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_index


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Everybody's a ninja...

Edited by SleepyF0x (11/12/08 02:06 PM)

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230018 -

All this argument says to me is that the fact that other people have more money than you is bothersome.

As soon as your own monetary status changes so you enter the ranks of the wealthy, your views will change.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9230029 -

WhiskeyClone said:
I don't know, but that's irrelevant.  We're talking about the real world, remember?


What is real, maaaan?  :gethigh:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230035 -

Joy :birthday:


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230082 -

deCypher said:
What is real, maaaan? 


Things that actually happen

Things people actually do

Not hypothetical things


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9230087 -

People steal shit all the time.

Don't need no justification.  :tongue:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230092 -

Yeah you said that


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230103 -

deCypher said:
All this argument says to me is that the fact that other people have more money than you is bothersome.

As soon as your own monetary status changes so you enter the ranks of the wealthy, your views will change.


says you. i'd like to see your credentials that favor of your argument. good thing you don't have a say in economic policy, you'd probably let the masses starve citing, "survival of the fittest."

if theres an apple tree that produces 100 apples, one person gets 98 apples and you get 2, you say that this is fair because that person reached the tree earlier than you did? when the tree produces more apples you are only destined to gather 2 apples each time, you cannot reach the destination earlier.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230119 -

Yeah, good thing the people who've had a say in our economic policy weren't able to prevent the subprime mortgage crisis or the current recession, aye?

He who has the gold makes the rules; what's fair to you is certainly not fair to someone with more money that you want to steal and give to the poor.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230184 -

stealing leads to stealing, CEO's make the game unfair (stealing).

i suggest you read this:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230186 -

I see convincing statistics that the majority of the wealth is in the hands of a minority of the people.

Again, what's wrong with this?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230210 -

because not even in a traditional capitalist system would this have happened, this happened through means of corruption.

again, if you look back at monarchist societies the wealth was distributed much like it is today, do you defend them as well?


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9230247 -

WhiskeyClone said:
deCypher said:
What is real, maaaan? 


Things that actually happen

Things people actually do

Not hypothetical things


Spain 1936

After General Francisco Franco declared war on the Spanish government in 1936 (Spanish civil war) the government lost control over much of Spain. Resistance to the rebels was often organized through the confederation of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions, the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT) and the Iberian Anarchist Federation, the Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI). The Spanish Revolution occurred almost immediately after the failed coup of Franco, leading to the formation of worker's collectives all over Republican Spain. This has been hailed as the best example of a functioning anarchist system. Anarchists were instrumental in keeping the country running and holding back the Francoists, until they were attacked by the Republican government and their Communist allies. The government was subsequently defeated by Franco, leading to 40 years of Francoist dictatorship in Spain.

evidence that a libertarian communist society could work, it was ultimately dismantled when they were attacked by other interests.

see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War_and_Foreign_Involvement


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230329 -

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuer


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230488 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
because not even in a traditional capitalist system would this have happened, this happened through means of corruption.

again, if you look back at monarchist societies the wealth was distributed much like it is today, do you defend them as well?


I'm not defending it; I'm merely stating that an unequal distribution of wealth is natural.  If everyone had the same amount of money then there is no advantage to any economic transaction.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230560 -

and i'm not saying that wealth should be distributed totally equally (as in socialism), i agree that an unequal distribution is healthy and provides competitiveness, but currently the system is corrupt, as you can see in the article i linked; as well as the majority of social scientists and economists who agree!

from the article i linked:

Quote:
If you wonder how such a large gap could develop, the proximate, or most immediate, factor involves the way in which CEOs now are able to rig things so that the board of directors, which they help select -- and which includes some fellow CEOs on whose boards they sit -- gives them the pay they want. The trick is in hiring outside experts, called compensation consultants, who give the process a thin veneer of economic respectability.



--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9230588 -

By corrupt do you simply mean that more people have less money than the few who have more?

This isn't corrupt; this is simply the way things are.  If you had all the riches, I highly doubt you would be complaining about corruption.  Any hope for idealism in an economic system is fatally flawed to begin with.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9230646 -

no, by corrupt i mean that people who have power directly control the flow of money. people are coerced into either accepting low-wage jobs, or choose between multiple low-wage jobs, or to starve.

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Quote:
A democratic or anti-authoritarian society, especially with non-hierarchical worker's control of the workplace and the economy as a whole,[10][11][12]

Unconditional access to non-exploitative property and a fair share of the basic necessities of life,[13][14] and

The ability of persons to have say over economic decisions in proportion to the degree they are affected by those decisions.[15]



--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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