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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9225788 -

And why do the poor inherently deserve money?

Capitalism is a pretty decent system. We just need more work done to keep corrupt corporations and monopoly OUT.


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Remember to cut your nails regularly.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: PyroBurns]
    #9225804 -

Why do the rich inherently deserve to keep theirs?

I'm not arguing in favor of equal distribution of wealth, but it's always funny to hear accusations of undeserved rights being leveled at the other party when one's own stance assumes just as much.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9225823 -

i disagree, the story of robin hood is that of the upper classes of hierarchy deliberately keeping the poor impoverished. robin hood is a moral warrior who rights the wrongs established by the corrupt rich.

i have no problems with people having more wealth or money, provided they get it through legitimate means, and not by exploitation, manipulation, or corruption.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9225835 -

I think you'll find that any exchange whereby some people end up having more wealth or money than others will fail to be legitimate.

Who determines what is exploitation and what isn't?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9225883 -

well, i think it shows by the graph that you can draw whereby wealth concentrated in the hands of the few is exponential where it should ideally be a bell shaped curve, ie. mostly equally distributed wealth, where the people who own little and a lot are few.

exploitation can be determined by the masses determining the definition.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9226859 -

deCypher said:
I think you'll find that any exchange whereby some people end up having more wealth or money than others will fail to be legitimate.

Who determines what is exploitation and what isn't?



did you somehow change your name (off topic i know) but i looked in the account and couldnt find it?


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9227041 -

deCypher said:
Again, why does one need justification in the first place?  :wink:



You need justification if you recognize the benefit of shared values in a society.  Most societies have the common value of human life for example, (because nobody likes to get murdered) so every society places expectations upon its citizens to refrain from killing other members of that society.  Most would agree this is a net benefit to almost every individual.

You say you could protect all of your possessions 24-7 if you have a shotgun (:rolleyes:) but the vast majority of the security you experience is provided by society's shared value of respecting ownership.  If nobody had any social incentive not to rob you, firearms and padlocks are not going to be enough.  We need society's expectation of mutual respect to keep the quality of life we have.  Because people benefit from this, a smart person knows they are better off contributing to it, rather than undermining it just to get a new TV.  An impulsive, desperate, or not-so-smart person may not always have the necessary perspective to see this benefit, so extra incentive is provided by society, in the form of criminal charges.

If you believe in anarchy, then don't stress about this thread; all these points will be lost on you.  Anarchy sounds horrible to me, IMO most anarchists are just naive and can't imagine what life would be like.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9227115 -

ANARCHYYYYYY



prepare yourself for hell on earth. anarchy will be chaos and absolutely terrifying. murder, rape and horrible shit everywhere.

i'm so ready.


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: igwna]
    #9227121 -

:rolleyes:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: roby000]
    #9227132 -

:hehehe: :kingtard:


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9227155 -

Quote:
Why do the rich inherently deserve to keep theirs?



Seriously?

Perhaps because they earned it?

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Redstorm]
    #9227166 -

not those rich kids who just inherit it.

"my father and mother worked hard for this money!"


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


Edited by igwna (11/11/08 11:14 PM)

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: igwna]
    #9227189 -

Bullshit.

If their parents decide that's where they want their money to go when they die, who are you to determine otherwise?

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Redstorm]
    #9227234 -

i was just saying they didnt EARN it. they had it handed to them.
or i guess they earned it by being born?
a worthy enough job if you ask me :shrug:


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9227698 -

WhiskeyClone said:
If you believe in anarchy, then don't stress about this thread; all these points will be lost on you.  Anarchy sounds horrible to me, IMO most anarchists are just naive and can't imagine what life would be like.



From the Tao te Ching:

Quote:
The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes as common as grass.



Lack of justification doesn't necessarily promote anarchy.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9229799 -

Those are all personal convictions, public policy can never instill them in people.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9229814 -

Exactly: when you try to instill these values in people by means of laws, morals, and public policy, failure is inevitable.  Only once you remove these arbitrary regulations and trust the people will true goodness shine.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9229913 -

I don't agree.  If goodness doesn't shine now, it won't shine in a lawless state. Do you think violence and brutality were not a part of our nature before there were governments?

Here are some historical examples of what has happened when these arbitrary regulations were removed.

I think we're better off with laws, at a least at this point in human development.  That doesn't mean there is no room for improvement in those laws, but I don't think a lawless society will provide a better quality of life than we currently have in the US and Canada.  Do you?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9229946 -

I think most attempts to institute anarchy from a previous society that was ruled by a government will be fraught with dissension, warfare, and constant strife--old habits die hard.  I think it might be possible to have small tribes operating in this manner, but starting the enterprise with people who are used to the old way of doing things would be rather difficult; especially when you try to expand this to incorporate millions of people and the type of interconnections such as the Internet or highways that are only truly possible with cooperation and laws.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9229967 -

Old habits die hard, exactly.  Where are you going to find a group of people without habits?

Who wants to be in a small, lawless tribe anyway?  I'll keep my highways and internet, thanks.  Getting rid of law is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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