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Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients?
    #8904815 -

I was wondering.  In recent years biologists have found that micro nutrients like iron, copper, chromium, and even molybdenum, play an important role in cellular function.  Has anyone tried to add these into their fruiting substrate to see if they could improve their yields?  They are readily available at your local drug store.

Comments anyone?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
    #8904855 -

I was recently told by someone of their technique with woodlovers. They get a B-complex tablet and crush it up. They then mix it with 150ml of water and use that to rehydrate rye seed. From that point on proceed as normal. Apparently the growth from jars with the B-complex far outstrips those without and that vigour is apparent in all subsequent transfers and after spawning too.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8905131 -

Hey AC,

I have MetaNaturals Organic Calcium (Ca derived from c.lime) and I'm going to use it with my h.poo mix bulk sub in place of gypsum for Ca.  I want to see the effects of an immediately available source of Ca vs gypsum (though the gypsum I am going to use is micronized so it's rate of effect will be higher then regular gypsum powder).

I am also going to test using "Kelpak", it a dilution of the cellular fluid within  live kelp from S.Africa.  It is full of micronutrients but few macro, especially little P or K and less N.  The kelp is processed using "cell rupture" methods were through sonic vibration release the fluid within the cells without heat or chemicals.  Kelpak has very high levels of auxins, hormones, etc.  But it contains chemical preservatives to give it shelf life in very low quantity.

Most sources of kelp extract (cold processed is important) contain the micros you listed, along with many others.  IMO it's always best to stay natural and better yet certified organic when possible.  I really like "Nature's Essence SEP", or Alg-a-min, or etc.  As a bonus they also have hormones, auxins, etc, which might be beneficial.

But I'm looking forward to testing the MetaNaturals Calcium, I'm also going to test it in the casing, in place of gypsum.


HTH :smile:

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905167 -

You can't replace CaSO4 (calcium sulphate) with CaCO3 (calcium carbonate). Your tablets would only contain CaCO3, which is what ground limestone consists of. Gypsum on the other hand contains both CaCO3 and CaSO4. You need both gypsum and ground limestone/hydrated lime in your casing layer.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8905365 -

My 2 cents:

Gypsum buffers the PH around 7. It contains calcium and its sulfur might help in protein production.
Limestone has a higher PH and no sulfur. It is good for species, which turn their substrate acidic.

For iron, copper, zinc, manganese and nitrogen, spent coffee grounds are fine.

Yeast extract has lots of helpful B vitamins.


Carsten

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8905780 -

Hey Guys,


Gypsum does not effect pH in our situation at all (and the only way gypsum will swing pH is down, not up or stabilize it either), that's a common misconception.  And it does not contain calcium carbonate, another common misconception.  And MetaNaturals is liquid and intended for horticulture.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) offers Ca and S and that's about it.  Lime (calcium carbonate) offers raising of pH and c.lime offers Ca too.

Lime (calcitic lime (which I will use) or hydrated lime) is mixed into casing for pH adjustment.  I'm still using c.lime with MetaNaturals Calcium in the casing.

Oh and I have a bit of doubt that B-vitamins are helpful, they have proven not helpful in horticulture.  I would like to read some research on the use of B-vitamins and fungals, anyone have any?
HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/10/08 09:45 AM)

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905801 -

Oh,

And MetaNaturals also contains huimic acid derived from kelp.  Humic acid is a fungal food and it's also should be great in the sub as it assists in chelation of organic matter which is helpful to microbes and higher fungals hyphae I assume...

I am also including humic acid (from a different source) in my water I drench the h.poo bulk sub with.

HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/10/08 09:33 AM)

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905921 -

You're incorrect about gypsum not containing CaCO3, it does.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8905940 -

Hey tripsis,

Can you please point me to the info which shows gypsum (CaSO4) contains calcium carbonate?

Do you agree that gypsum does not effect pH?  (expect in high aluminum or sodium (sodic) soils where it lowers the pH)

Thanks :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/10/08 10:14 AM)

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905958 -

Oh yea,

And a point of interest is that Ca is really a macro but it's been lumped  into the micro list for so long it's now commonly thought of to be a micro.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905959 -

I'll take a photo of my bag of gypsum when I get time. It clearly states that it contains CaCo3. Perhaps what I have is not "pure" gypsum.

I have no idea whether it affects pH or not though, although I'm assuming the presence of CaCo3 would help raise pH.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8905969 -

Hey,

Yea, gypsum has no calcium carbonate as far as I know.  And it doesn't help raise the pH at all, it will actually lower the pH in certain situations.  But if your bag also has CaC03 then it may help raise the pH depending upon it's ratio to the gypsum.

HTH :smile:

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905972 -

Yes, a quick google search yielded the same info. I'm not sure why my bag has CaCO3 mixed in with it, but it does. It presents me no issues though.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8905978 -

Hey,

Sounds good to me, I'm glad everything is working well for you :smile:

P.S.  I LOVE your pics! That ant is amazing.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8905985 -

Cheers, I only took the one on the left though. They were growing out of a rotting log in a rainforest in Kenya.

The ant has been parasitised by Coryceps lloydii.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: wisp]
    #8906159 -

Regardless of what exactly gypsum contains, it is proved over many years to increase harvests, as well as the health and vigor of mushrooms.  I'm no chemist so won't even begin to pretend to know exactly why it works but it does.  I do know that it contains calcium and sulfur, and both are essential to good fruitbody development.  In addition, mushrooms contain massive amounts of calcium that is easily absorbed by our bodies, so it only makes sense to put calcium into our substrates.

My experience is that gypsum tends to stabilize the pH, preventing wild swings in either direction, which is common with mushroom mycelium, depending on species. 

When growing Shiitake on sawdust/woodchips, I get almost double the yield as when not using gypsum.  Commercial Shiitake growers report a 20% to 30% increase in product, but for me it's more than that.  Cubensis growers report increased harvests, as well as better formed fruits and a drastic reduction in contaminant molds when using gypsum in both substrates and casing layers.  I'll leave it to the chemists and biologists to argue the 'why', but I'll darn sure argue that it works.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8906658 -

Tripsis, the CaCO3 should slightly raise the pH of the substrate, but it probably isn't even measureable given the quantities of substrate and other materials in the mix. 

Quickpick, if you're noticing a lower of pH after addition of your gypsum, it's due to something other than the carbonate or sulfate.  The sulfate will not affect the pH. 

RR, yes, as you observed, it does help with buffering the mix, especially against a decrease in pH *(becoming more acidic). 

I could go into the chemical reasons for this, but it really isn't necessary (and isn't that interesting).  But RR is right about the benefits.  I've never seen a disadvantage to its use.  If you're actually interested in the reasons behind all of this, look up buffer systems utilizing weak acids and their salts.

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: MycoAu]
    #8907010 -

Hey MycoAu,

Quote:
Quickpick, if you're noticing a lower of pH after addition of your gypsum, it's due to something other than the carbonate or sulfate.  The sulfate will not affect the pH. 


No I haven't noticed a reduction in pH with gypsum, I've not yet used it.  But when I do test with gypsum I don't expect it lower pH, that only happens in certain media.  But that's the only direction pH will go from gypsum: down.  Sulfur (from gypsum) can lower pH, it tuns into sulfuric acid in media which lowers pH in media (but only in certain circumstances).  Oh, and there is no carbonate in gypsum as far as I know (if you have data stating otherwise I'd love to read it); that's a common misconception and IMO might be the basis of the idea that gypsum buffers pH.

It doesn't buffer pH as far as I understand, I'll PM you a link to a recent thread where I describe this in detail.  If you have data/info which shows it does buffer pH I would be very interested to read it (you can PM me if you want).

There are disadvantages but you just haven't seen them and I doubt they will effect other mycologists or growers.  When gypsum is applied to media with med-high levels of inherent aluminum and a pH below 5.5 it can release the aluminum as soluble aluminum which can cause phytotoxicity and I assume mycotoxicity.  This is why horticulturists don't apply gypsum to media under pH or 5.5.  Gypsum is occasionally used in high pH soil (to lower it, specific types of soil) but more generally it used in sodic soils.

Gypsum is a good source of Ca and S, but IMO not the best source when compared to other options.  Though I have yet to do any side by side grows at all.  I'm working off my base of knowledge and what I've read of others like RR, Stamets, etc in regards to p.cube utilizing a good amount of Ca.

HTH :smile:

Edited by quickpick (09/10/08 03:27 PM)

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: quickpick]
    #8907108 -

Ok, "buffering" in the strictest sense is probably wrong.  As the media/substrate tries to lower pH, the extra protons will react with the carbonate creating carbonic acid which rapidly decomposes (at normal temperatures) into water and CO2.  So, on a strict molar and chemical property basis, it's use to "buffer" anything is very limited. 

The lowering of pH, as I mentioned being caused by something else, probably is as a result of the sulfur.  Sulfur oxidizes to H2S and then through each of the oxo-acids up to sulfuric acid *(very strong, very low pH acid).  Or from the sulfate, I guess, through bio-reactions, you could reduce to the acids and oxidize back up to sulfuric acids. 

I wasn't trying to say that there is carbonate in the gypsum so much as trying to say that IF is was there, this is how it would effect the media.

I am interested in the aluminum thing.  Al (oxidation state 0) reacts with the basic materials, to produce the hydroxide and is then converted by various acids to water soluble (and therefore, bio-available) aluminum forms?  Or do you propose a different pathway?  Do your references include this information?

Anyways, perhaps the idea and terminology of "buffering" substrates, etc. should be dropped as it leads to too much confusion. 

Below is information that will help others understand what I have stated less eloquently above and provide evidence for Quick's statements.







quoted material from the following page:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/crops/00504.html

"Several commercial products are now on the market for amending sodic and saline-sodic soils. The only function of scientifically proven amendments is to provide soluble calcium to replace exchangeable sodium adsorbed on clay surfaces. There are two main types of amendments: those that add calcium directly to the soil and those that dissolve calcium from calcium carbonate (CaCO3) already present in the soil.


Calcium amendments include gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate) and calcium chloride. Gypsum is moderately soluble in water. Calcium chloride is highly water soluble and fast acting, but it generally is too expensive for most situations.


Acid-forming, or acidic amendments, include sulfuric acid, elemental sulfur, and calcium carbonate-sulfur. Sulfuric acid reacts immediately with the soil calcium carbonate to release soluble calcium for exchange with sodium. Elemental sulfur must be oxidized by soil bacteria and react with water to form sulfuric acid. The formation of sizeable amounts of sulfuric acid from elemental sulfur may take several months to several years.


Calcium carbonate-sulfur must go through essentially the same process as elemental sulfur and also is considered a slow-acting amendment. Calcium carbonate must be present in the soil when acid or acid-forming amendments are added.


Choose the amendment mainly on the basis of the cost of the soluble calcium furnished directly or indirectly by the amendment and the speed of the reaction. Also consider ease of application."

Edited by MycoAu (09/10/08 03:36 PM)

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Re: Supplementing Substrates w/ Micro Nutrients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8909243 -

RogerRabbit said:
...My experience is that gypsum tends to stabilize the pH, preventing wild swings in either direction, which is common with mushroom mycelium, depending on species...


That is true.  Gypsum or Calcium Sulfate, CaSO4, can act as a pH buffer by reacting with excess acids or excess bases.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a dumb question.  There are just curious people trying to learn something new. 

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