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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Liquid Nutrient Solution
    #1703283 - 07/10/03 06:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Is it possible to short cut the production of a liquid nutrient solution? Instead of draining and condensing compost, would it be possible to dissolve vitamins and minerals into sterile water?


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1704341 - 07/11/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, look for 6T's tek. Malt-based solution.

Or PDY broth.

Or dextrose water.

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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: micro]
    #1704738 - 07/11/03 03:05 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So a liquid nutrient solution is simply sugar water? Would more fortifying be possible?


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1706195 - 07/11/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Woah there. Yidaki, when you say LNS I think you are refferring to the product that mycota offered with his compost, which he recomended be used for things like mixing with verm to supplement a compost?

If so, then no, malt-based, dextrose based, any sugar etc will give you instant contams.

A comparable liquid solution to mycotas lns would be compost tea, castings tea, maybe even a dilute kelp nutrient. These things are much less contaminate prone than nutrient rich solutions which would be used in liquid culture (such as honey teks, liquid fermentation etc).


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I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: mycofile]
    #1706295 - 07/11/03 04:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not really interested in liquid culture, I'm more interested in fortifying substrate. I'm probably just dreaming of reinventing the wheel. Thanks for your input.


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1706579 - 07/11/03 06:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Don't worry about fortifying substrate. Have you ever seen a substrate where the mycelium ate 100% or the nutrients? Maybe in a Cake, but if you are trying advanced stuff your probably past the cake phase. IF your not, then you should look into casing and stuff.


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: lemunhed]
    #1707281 - 07/11/03 11:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I was planning on fortifying dung and straw. I've heard of adding vitamins and minerals that shrooms like. The purpose being more, bigger fruits on more flushes.


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1707357 - 07/12/03 12:21 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hmmm. I must admit that dung and straw are a little bit outside my realm of experience, I don't have a big enough area to grow in and I haven't worked upto an outdoor grow yet. That means don't believe anything I say =)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: lemunhed]
    #1707765 - 07/12/03 03:29 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Mycofile posted a good article just yesterday in this forum in the "Spawn Ratios" thread. People sometimes do this; it can increase flushes, but you have a higher chance of contamination the more nutrients you put in.

I get really good flushes off of just plain straw, so I just stick with that; it just seems easier and less to worry about. Two each their own, though.

Just my opinion.

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: micro]
    #1714528 - 07/14/03 03:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, to sumarize what I said in that thread, the best way to supplement a bulk substrate is with more spawn. At that, most people are using incredibly high spawn rates anyway (compared to commercial gourmet cultivators).

An extra quart of colonized grain will add far more nutrients to a casing than a few vitamins, or a few drops of compost tea.


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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineSafeHaven

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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1714989 - 07/14/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Little something a friend wanted me to say was that he is trying a liquid solution in his jars that supposedly is packed full of nutrients. It is bought at GNC and is called I think Mineral Wealth, it is cherry flavored unfortunately.

The liquid is based on water being filtered through a certain type of clay. Clay is mostly plants that have decayed and what you have is minerals and such that are plant based and very soluble.

I first learned of this by a info type commercial but wasnt on Tv was more like I was somewhere and seen him speak. The thinking behind this stuff is when we farm land we only add back into the environment mostly N, P, and K. No other minerals or anything are added that I ever known, to farm land so what happens over the decades the plants produce there fruits (ears of corn) and then we eat or the cows eat then we replant the next year, never to add all the trace minerals that we all need though never receive. The ground gets depleted of these trace minerals. (I could go on and on about this as I think there is some truth to what he is saying, if we dont get the right minerals, nutrients then there is a greater chance for disease to set it. .... btw Congress did a study talking of the need for possibly adding nutrients to the soil other than what we already add, it was commissioned back in 1913 I think. Was very interesting stuff.

Anyways in hope that these trace minerals and other nutrients that are in the liquid help the shrooms in all of there endeavors. My friend did two jars with and two without , unfortunately one of the jars got contaminated. So his double blind study wont excatly work and he is gonna try I believe with casing wetted down with this liquid and one without and see if he can scientifically determine stronger growth and better potency with this liquid. or..... did he just waste alot of time and a little bit of money.. though he bought it anyways so he could consume the stuff.



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OfflineXiC_clone
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: mycofile]
    #1715774 - 07/14/03 09:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

How about the old poo water endevor? Injection of pasturized cow/horse dung water directly to a casing?


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: XiC_clone]
    #1716590 - 07/15/03 12:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I read your post Mycofile and came to the agreed with your conclusion. The best way to supplement substrate is with more spawn.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: SafeHaven]
    #1716842 - 07/15/03 01:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Anything that's cherry flavoured will usually have some sort of simple sugar in it (fructose, in this case ) and cherry flavouring. Don't know about the flavouring, but simple sugars make things more prone to contaminate and can also inhibit enzymes in the fungus which would slow down growth (also making more prone to contaminate) because it'll try to exhaust the supply of simple sugars before it'll break down the more complex bonds in a more specific substrate.

Watch out with the zinc; this can definately be toxic to fungi. There is also no reason to add that much magnesium; usually you'll add about 50mg/L magnesium to 1 L of synthetic media, and ~1/2 cup of cooked brown rice (nowhere close to 1L) has about 41.5 mg in it (you'd have to multiply this by about 8 to get a liter.)

Other than that, I don't know.

As for the farming thing, most farmers rotate their crops, because if they don't they won't be healthy crops. This is also one of the reasons people will sometimes burn sections of heavily vegetated land -- this makes the soil more fertile and also gives newly planted crops more light, in addition to less competition from its surroundings. This occurs in nature, as well. Fungi also helps to bring nutrients back into the soil by decomposing the dead plant matter.

As far as other countries go, they don't always produce the variety of crops in a certain place that's required by the Dept. of Agriculture in the US. The US has pretty strict regulations on that matter, though. I wouldn't really worry about a lack of nutrients for this reason; the plants should provide enough trace nutrients to support the fungi (given the fact that there are substrates that are more nutritious and *will* promote better growth, for example brown rice vs. white rice.)

Adding nutrients can be a good thing if you're careful, but you have to know everything you're putting in and in what quantity. You also don't want *too* much nutrition because the mycelium will fruit at a certain given time; one factor in deciding when to fruit is a depletion of available extracellular nutrition.

As for the manure water to casings, I don't think this would be very beneficial, except to contaminants. When professionals supplement they'll mix the supplement into the mycelium. Trichoderma can live off of dung, so I wouldn't reccomend adding it to the casing, especially if it includes peat, which can harbour Trichoderma since it's somewhat resistant to an acidic enviornment. You have to remember that when a mycelium colonizes a casing layer it does so from the top, so it's a really inefficient way of doing this, as opposed to evenly mixing the nutrition with the mycelium. Supplementing, however, even by mixing it, will make things much more prone to contaminating.

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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: micro]
    #1717773 - 07/15/03 11:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

When my lab is up and running come this August I will be working on my own compost. I hope to be producing 20 to 30 pounds every other week of oysters, shitakes, enokis, maitakes, possibly Pom Poms and eventually Portobellos and Crimini. Instead of cleaning my stems I just plan on cutting and throwing them into the compost. Once the mushrooms decompose all of their nutrients will also be there. Can anyone think of a better fortifyed mushroom substrate but decomposed mushrooms themselves? (Although better watch out for Mad Mushroom Disease, but don't worry it isn't contagious)


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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1717787 - 07/15/03 11:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>Can anyone think of a better fortifyed mushroom substrate but
>decomposed mushrooms themselves?

Following this logic the best food for humans would be decomposed human bodies?


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OfflineSafeHaven

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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: micro]
    #1717828 - 07/15/03 12:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Anything that's cherry flavored will usually have some sort of simple sugar in it (fructose, in this case ) and cherry flavoring. Don't know about the flavoring, but simple sugars make things more prone to contaminate and can also inhibit enzymes in the fungus which would slow down growth (also making more prone to contaminate) because it'll try to exhaust the supply of simple sugars before it'll break down the more complex bonds in a more specific substrate.

I think the amount of sugar in this is very low if any as if you would taste this stuff you would know ( not much taste and mostly is like water), plus I remember reading the contents which I will post on here when I get the chance. I seem to remember no preservatives and other stuff etc etc..


As for the farming thing, most farmers rotate their crops, because if they don't they won't be healthy crops. This is also one of the reasons people will sometimes burn sections of heavily vegetated land -- this makes the soil more fertile and also gives newly planted crops more light, in addition to less competition from its surroundings. This occurs in nature, as well. Fungi also helps to bring nutrients back into the soil by decomposing the dead plant matter.


One of the main reasons farmers rotate crops are because if you dont, a specific species of insects (underground and above will zero in on the lets say Corn plant and start to eat. Especially if you farm year after year with corn in the same spot, thats why you rotate crop from Corn to Soybeans to Wheat and back to Corn. If even at all you plant all three of them. If you just do corn then you will have to apply insecticides constantly.

As far as other countries go, they don't always produce the variety of crops in a certain place that's required by the Dept. of Agriculture in the US. The US has pretty strict regulations on that matter, though. I wouldn't really worry about a lack of nutrients for this reason; the plants should provide enough trace nutrients to support the fungi (given the fact that there are substrates that are more nutritious and *will* promote better growth, for example brown rice vs. white rice.)

Well never heard it was a requirment though they set guidlines to follow, which in turn are beneficial for you in the long run.

The problem is when lets say for instance zinc that resides in the soil is constantly being pulled from the soil and put into the plant and it's fruits.
We harvest the fruits, there is no way for the soil to be replenished of the nutrients that have been harvested. ie: why we apply N,P, and K.

I guess it comes down to, if we dont apply it back, then it wont be in there in the first place.

I will try to get that info on the supplement, you seem to have some knowledge concerning whats good and not good for Fungi, like to get your opinion on that.



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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: SafeHaven]
    #1717883 - 07/15/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

SafeHaven -- I posted the nutritional info above in the link that's titled "this case" in the post. You're right about the crop turning and insects, but I also think it adds diversity to the land, itself, since different plants will need different amounts of different things. You're absolutely right, though -- if a land is farmed for a while without fertilizer and stuff it'll lose nutrients, and the crops will be weak or die. I just don't think farming, as big of an industry it is, at least in America, works that way. I'm no botonist or farmer, though, so I don't know exactly what they do in addition to this. There are regulations -- it's a law that farmers have to follow. As for the specifics, I don't know, but maybe it's in the USC?

Trace minerals like zinc are called such because they are only needed in really small amounts. I do agree that adding nutrients can be benificial, but you have to know exactly what the substrate is lacking, and add it in a similar amount. The reason I mentioned zinc is because it's in this specific supplement; things like copper can also be toxic in high quantities, but this also depends on the species; it can be toxic to some but not as much to others.

Usually if you want to add nutrients it's easiest to do in their salt form; I don't know how one would go about ordering these, but you should be able to because they're not illegal. You could add really small amounts by making a stock solution of a certain concentration.

Nutritional info on brown rice can be found at:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=128

Other stuff by doing a simple web search (if not all of the stuff is in the nutritional info on the package.)

--
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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: Anno]
    #1717983 - 07/15/03 01:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
>Can anyone think of a better fortifyed mushroom substrate but
>decomposed mushrooms themselves?

Following this logic the best food for humans would be decomposed human bodies?




Sorry, your logic is flawed. Humans and mushrooms are too disimilar to be compared by analogy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Liquid Nutrient Solution [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1718003 - 07/15/03 01:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yes?

Mushrooms consume dead, organic matter, mainly carbohydrates and proteins.
Man consume dead, organic matter, mainly carbohydrates and proteins.

Too dissimilar?


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