Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7922956 -

love is that warm and fuzzy feeling deep down inside, hate is that feeling where you want to kill someone. they're actually energies. your religious experiences are subjective.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7923640 -

Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.


--------------------
"...and only when you forget you are human, will you remember you are a God."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7923761 -

yeah, see your not making any sense. Those aren't good definitions at all. Your being a bit simplistic as far as the love hate thing goes.
You need to be more specific not just repeat a hallmark card and expect that to work. define energies.

Quote:
KrishnaDreamer

your religious experiences are subjective.



Thats what I said actually. and I explained why they are subjective,
but what I am proposing is that the elemental "qualia" that is the basis of that experience is the only truly universal human experience
because it represents the most basic of signals (like the senses). It is like any other sense and it is just that every human has the
capability to experience it. Perhaps some don't (like being blind) which would explain some people.

what I am saying is that your "warm fuzzy feeling" doesn;t exist to
everyone in the same way, I would not describe love as a warm fuzzy feeling. I can't even begin to know how to imagine a warm emotion,
much less a fuzzy one. What you need to do is expand your rhetoric in order to be more specific. Warm and fuzzy are subjective. I wouldn't
describe hate as a feeling as though I want to kill someone, at least not literally and if you aren't speaking literally you aren't defining
it very well and again not being objective. Hate is more complicated and so is love. At least the way I would define them, probably
because I define them based on more than just my own experience because they are cultural words and belong to a language spawned from
that culture and therefore mean something other than what a single person experiences. In fact they mean a lot of things to a lot of
people but the word is trying to describe something that most people feel in similar ways. People who say that they don't believe love
exists either cannot feel love or feel it in a way not relevant to their cultures definition of what love should be (like warm and fuzzy)
and therefore cannot recognize it when they feel it, some would say they aren't feeling love at all at that point and I would tend to
agree.


Love is like I said tied in with connectedness (in general) but it is
more specific and it describes more than one emotion and it describes a many number of things that are really quite complex. If we are
talking about love as in the cultural idea of true love that is, which is a separate category that seems to be created to describe love in
more specific idealist way because of everyone's confusion about what the word love actually means. You see these things aren't black and
white and human language can never impart experiences to people it can only impart information, which are not experiences.


Connectedness as I would try to describe it is a "oneness" or a
feeling of "peace" and connection to everyone and everything. It is not specific however often times in the absence of clear triggers for
this feeling the mind creates contexts that become specific based on the person experiencing it. Even in the presence of triggers (drugs,
meditation, ect.) people often give context to these experiences as a way to understand them in relation to their believes before. That is
what I mean by "religious experience".

Anytime you begin to give context or assign information to a raw
experience it becomes subjective. You see, literally see, the same things I do when we are in the same room, however your brain drapes
these sensory inuts over your psyche like a sheet and therefore everything you look at has context and therefore everything you
actually perceive is actually subjective, but the qualia that we are both receiving in our brains is the same. This cannot be proven of
course but it seems most likely since we are all humans. We all generally except that what we are all seeing is red, for instance and
it doesn't matter whether my red is your blue (as in if I saw the way you see red I would call it blue).

This experience is the same thing it is a raw sensory experience that
we all have the ability to take in and then give context to. It is an archetypal experience available to us only by some unknown reason
but inherent in every human being.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Dioxyde]
    #7923785 -

Dioxyde said:
Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.



Hey man, believing everything is subjective is just a logical imperative. It does not mean there is no right or wrong, it just means there is no universal right and wrong. It is up to you to define your values and your own set of beliefs.

Child molestation is bad in the context of your culture and your own beliefs, however you have to allow for the fact that there could be a culture who doesn't agree with you. in their eyes it is not harmful and nothing to worry about, and the children wouldn't even care because thats the culture they exist in, do you see? So it is not wrong from their point of view.

The only way to justify this is to say that they're not right and your not right you just have different beliefs. So there is no universal wrong and right.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7923802 -

Take me down.......to wonky townnnn


--------------------
Im Not Living, Im Just Killing Time

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7923945 -

JstHereFrTheCake said:
Dioxyde said:
Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.



Hey man, believing everything is subjective is just a logical imperative. It does not mean there is no right or wrong, it just means there is no universal right and wrong. It is up to you to define your values and your own set of beliefs.

Child molestation is bad in the context of your culture and your own beliefs, however you have to allow for the fact that there could be a culture who doesn't agree with you. in their eyes it is not harmful and nothing to worry about, and the children wouldn't even care because thats the culture they exist in, do you see? So it is not wrong from their point of view.

The only way to justify this is to say that they're not right and your not right you just have different beliefs. So there is no universal wrong and right.


Valid point but I am not talking about people who honestly believe in their hearts that they are not harming someone with their actions I am speaking of people who are aware they are causing harm and do it willingly.


--------------------
"...and only when you forget you are human, will you remember you are a God."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7923986 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate



I would say fear is the universal negative. Hate is just disguised fear.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7924253 -

KRISHNA, STOP TRYING TO DISSECT HIS OPEN-MINDED ARGUMENT WITH YOUR CLOSED-MINDED RAZOR.


--------------------






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: CMACD]
    #7924300 -

lol... yeah that was simplistic. energies are the vibrational frequencies permeating throughout all matter, time, and space. thats about as objective as you can get.

i will admit i was wrong in some of the above arguments, but like said above, it's difficult with current terminology as they're not specific enough and don't adequately describe the experience.

again your feelings of connectedness are subjective as well, i doubt very few people feel connected. are they connected? sure, but the feeling of it is subjective.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

Edited by SleepyF0x (01/24/08 01:58 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7936231 -

Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:


--------------------
Feed Your Head.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7936337 -

why_not_me said:
Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:


qft


--------------------
Im Not Living, Im Just Killing Time

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7936356 -

why_not_me said:
Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:


I prefer ketamine crytals!!! (ba-da-dum drumroll!!)  :grin:  :heart:


--------------------
Law breakers, law makers, let us fight them all, why not.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7937202 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
lol... yeah that was simplistic. energies are the vibrational frequencies permeating throughout all matter, time, and space. thats about as objective as you can get.

...

again your feelings of connectedness are subjective as well, i doubt very few people feel connected. are they connected? sure, but the feeling of it is subjective.


Well Krishna, I don't believe I ever said "connectedness" is objective only that I am proposing that it is the only universal human
experience and therefore the closest thing to objective a human can feel. Perhaps there are aliens that cannot feel it and feel something
else instead or nothing at all, I don't know I am not an alien. In this sense it may as well be objective.

I should stress the need to not let the word "connectedness" throw you. Like I said I am describing an experience that has no word. You
cannot understand the experience by the name it is given. I have read many many trip reports that describe it, I have talked to many many
people who have felt it, and I have tripped with people and we have all felt it simultaneously. However if you have never felt it then
you can't know, the word connectedness is just the best descriptive word I can use to describe the concept of the experience because I
really can not touch the experience itself.

Like I said before this idea is all about trusting that this experience is the same because of the way it happens and the way
everyone who has had it tends to feel during it. I can't prove it is the same, but it seems likely.


To address the energies thing, your description still lacks substance, you are trying to describe something that you have no understanding of
and probably can't. Love is not an energy, it is a state of mind within the context of the human brain. Hate as well. they are very
complicated concepts.

Truly it seems nothing a human can experience is ever objective, we can look at the same thing but we see it from different angles even if
we only count the visual qualia of that experience we are still seeing something unique to eachother.

The thing that makes the idea of this experience of connection important is that it is not based on location or values, it is not
based on any fact other than being human. I believe it is simple because it seems as though humans always have access to it, however it
takes the breaking down (apart) of the mind in order to located the experience. It is singular, there doesn't appear to be any sub levels
of it, it just is. It is not something that can only be experienced at a certain point in space and time. It is always there it just takes
opening your mind to realize it. Like opening your eyes.

It is not an energy it is simply something humans seem to have the ability to sense and to experience. In fact I am not even talking
about the thing we sense just the actual sensation of it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7937394 -

so you have never felt "good" vibes and "bad" vibes? my definition makes more sense.

and your right, if i have never felt this "connectedness" feeling, than it doesn't exist. therefore it is a subjective experience.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7938673 -

Ketamine is pretty nice, dont hate whoever is

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Robo]
    #7939089 -

This whole subjective, objective mess is tricky.
I agree with OneLessForeskin.  To me its just common knowledge.
The thing is, you can agree with either argument, and you're not right.  And you're not wrong.
In the same sense, both arguments are right and wrong. 
Do you see what I mean?
Because neither argument can be proven.  Because reality is subjective.  Or reality is objective.  Neither can be right which means reality is subjective, right?  No?  :hehehe:

It is.
It isn't.
This is the meaning of life.
No it isn't.

So OMR, while you are right - you can't be right.  Just saying reality is subjective is paradoxical.  Do you agree?  You're wrong.
No matter how you turn this thing, it will never make any sense. 
A paradox is by definition something that simply cannot exist.
Yet, the way I see it, existence itself is a paradox.

Fucking trip, life is.


--------------------
Click to instantly make the shroomery a better place

Edited by Blend (01/27/08 04:51 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: CMACD]
    #7939101 -

CMACD said:
KRISHNA, STOP TRYING TO DISSECT HIS OPEN-MINDED ARGUMENT WITH YOUR CLOSED-MINDED RAZOR.


Who is to say who is open-minded/closed-minded?
This thread is fun. Inspirational, even.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Blend]
    #7939224 -

Ah, Grasshoppers, true oneness is ineffable, it is open, clear, spontaneous, and perfect. It holds nothing back, has no prior motive, makes no plans, does not harm others.

Untrue oneness is oneupmanship, selfishness, greed, and sloth.

If you learn which oneness you act from you will know the tenor of your actions and their fruits.


--------------------
...or something






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7939592 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
so you have never felt "good" vibes and "bad" vibes? my definition makes more sense.

and your right, if i have never felt this "connectedness" feeling, than it doesn't exist. therefore it is a subjective experience.


No your definition doesn't really make more sense. You are basing your entire theory on a very loosey goosey way of describing things
which will never work. "good vibes" doesn't literally mean there are good energies vibrating from one person to the next. It is just
describing feeling good. If you want to get down into it it probably comes from the idea that one person feeling good will make another person
feel the same way, similar to a vibrating partical of air for instance (like sound). It is more about cause and effect than an idea that
there are actually vibrations of energy being exchanged. It's just a stupid hippy way of saying something and is not the basis for an
intellectual argument.

"Good vibes", like I said, is just feeling good, which is a state of mind. People feeling good can make you feel good just because we are
humans and animals and we sense what is going on around us and act accordingly. Dogs mirror the emotions of their owners for instance.
You can not take a state of mind and somehow distort it into cosmic energy.


To address your second sentence. You are misunderstanding what I said. Just because you have not seen the Pyramids of Egypt with your
eyes does not mean they do not exist. Their existence is not subjective. You just have not been in the proper point in space in
which to view them. The same is true for the qualia I am talking about expect instead of the signal from your retina you are receiving
a signal from someplace else in your brain or nervous system. This I have no comment on, however it doesn't matter because it is still
apparent that this qualia is interceptable by some mechanism of the brain. I could throw out the usual suspects like the pineal gland but
I don;t know or even have enough information to think that could be right.

However, like I have said in thinking about this experience it is clear that everyone is experiencing it in a similar to exactly the
same way. Which is way I believe it is the only universal human experience. I have already stated my observations on this subject so
I shouldn't need to again.

It is important to understand the idea of qualia. And that it is the raw signal your brain is receiving and not the experience of that,
because you will automatically begin to give it context which makes it subjective as it is your brain and unique psyche which are assigning
information to create that experience.

Edited by JstHereFrTheCake (01/27/08 10:27 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7939639 -
Log in to view attachment

KrishnaDreamer said:
the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate

.


haven't you seen donnie darko??? it's love and FEAR.

dude, the point from what i can tell that is trying to be expressed, is that, good and bad are non tangible ideas, you have this idea of good and bad and they exist unfortunatly as nothing more then a thought or a feeling. you cant hold good and bad in your hands and say, this is good, this IS what good is. there what this philosopher that said that useing the term IS can be very confusing and generally leads to ambiguities that people don't even notice or can decipher.
so a tangent to what is being said is that, you can't say someone IS bad because sure they might have done something harmful and might still want to keep doing it. but that peraon isn't the tangible manifestation of the concept of bad. they are still and always a person with actions, they are not the notion of BAD or GOOD. its like that painting translated from french is called 'this is not a pipe' and what it was was a picture, painted in great detail the image of a tobacco pipe. so when you say someone is good or bad, its misleading in a sense, its doesn't define or describe the person really at all.


however, besides details, most people know what you mean by saying he is a bad person or a good guy, but really they are no more then just an expression. same why if you see a painting, its fine to say, that's a landscape. but as we all know its a painting of a landscape, and that person is being bad.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 orizon 20,699 99 06/01/11 06:45 PM
by rooster22
* Is there hope for the psychedelic /drug culture?
( 1 2 all )		 MOTH 6,339 23 04/03/04 06:38 AM
by lightset
* Drugs with a medicinal use? The_Hobbit 1,172 10 01/27/14 03:11 AM
by psilocybinjunkie
* Why do people goto the ER for bad trips? Drugs to keep sane? mush20 2,588 16 08/16/04 12:10 AM
by Papaver
* How Hallucinogenic Drugs Work
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 mjshroomer 76,997 117 08/13/14 05:49 AM
by omegafaust
* Drugs are cool , even though you might not be......... Psilocybeingzz 3,388 13 05/21/03 12:03 PM
by mrpants
* Drug Testing For Psilocybin/Psilicin
( 1 2 all )		 shroomsformike 60,600 22 07/04/18 06:39 AM
by madefrompaint
* Why are mushrooms and other drugs illegal?
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 ChopperDave 9,728 64 12/12/10 09:59 PM
by PoisonCrazy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Asante, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
4,376 topic views. 1 members, 971 guests and 54 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.