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Offlinehazey
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there ARE good drugs
    #7919897 - 01/23/08 01:32 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)



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OfflineCoaster
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: hazey]
    #7919900 - 01/23/08 01:33 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

wut thats crazy speak


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OfflinePolyrhythmanaut
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Coaster]
    #7920107 - 01/23/08 02:39 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

there are smart people, as well as stupid people;)


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OfflineOrbital_Saucer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Polyrhythmanaut]
    #7920430 - 01/23/08 04:19 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

This guy looks like a zombie attempting a dance number.

I can think of worse drugs than Ketamine. It's still psychedelic, at least.


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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Orbital_Saucer]
    #7920790 - 01/23/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

i cant believe no one will help him get off the street,lol people suck.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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OfflinePhishe
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: awesomebastard]
    #7920885 - 01/23/08 05:46 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I don't even think he's on K.

Mentally retarded perhaps? :shrug:


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OfflinePolyrhythmanaut
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Phishe]
    #7920951 - 01/23/08 06:01 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

honestly, i thought it was kind of amusing :evil:

Though i guess it is kind of sick to just film the guy while hes almost getting run over. fucking funny shit though.

Poor guy looked like he was struggling to maintain...something...even standing, or holding is jacket.

I guess is could be Ketamine but Ive never seen anyone do anything else, whilst in a "k hole", other that sit or lie down, smiling contently as they float in and out.


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Offlinewhy_not_me
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Polyrhythmanaut]
    #7921216 - 01/23/08 07:00 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

haha ive watched a dj go into a k-hole during his set, it was hilarious..

K is not a bad drug

:banned::smirk:


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Feed Your Head.


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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7921285 - 01/23/08 07:14 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I doubt that hes on Ket, if he was that high he'd just be in a corner monging out.


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Offlinegreystealth
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7921300 - 01/23/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

K is legit.

meth is bad


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: hazey]
    #7921304 - 01/23/08 07:19 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

There are no bad drugs, there are no good drugs.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921565 - 01/23/08 08:14 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

just bad people ^^


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921568 - 01/23/08 08:15 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

No, I don't think there are bad people either.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921573 - 01/23/08 08:16 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Not to say I don't think some people are "better" than others. I just understand it's a very subjective thing, and very much based on my own personal moral and values set. But innately, there are no good and bad people. Too many of us to be unified by anything like that.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921576 - 01/23/08 08:16 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

i don't get it..


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921585 - 01/23/08 08:18 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

When you say someone is good, or someone is bad, you aren't saying that they exist in some sort of state of goodness or badness objective to yourself...because that's impossible. All your experiences, all the judgments you've ever made that have formulated your worldview...all that goes into the judgments that you pass on each person. So they're only bad/good the way that YOU see bad/good. And the way YOU see bad/good may be wildly different from the way I see bad/good.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921610 - 01/23/08 08:22 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

so i see rapists' as bad and you see them as good?


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921622 - 01/23/08 08:24 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

See, I'm trying to have a rational conversation here and you're jumping to extremes, and also throwing ridiculous assumptions out.

No, but some rapists truly don't see what they are doing as "bad." So if two conscious human beings can have two completely different perceptions about the validity of a certain course of action, what makes either one right? Majority rules? Just something worth thinking about, and it's something that moral high-horse drug perceptions always gets me thinking about.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921640 - 01/23/08 08:27 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

well, those "some" rapists are either retarded or insane. i think im right in saying rapists are bad.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921650 - 01/23/08 08:28 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

And I would agree with you. But I don't agree that there's a universal truth saying they're bad. There's something to be said about a common gut feeling among billions of conscious beings that a certain something is wrong. But that doesn't make us right.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921659 - 01/23/08 08:30 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

OneLessForeskin said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational conversation here and you're jumping to extremes, and also throwing ridiculous assumptions out.

No, but some rapists truly don't see what they are doing as "bad." So if two conscious human beings can have two completely different perceptions about the validity of a certain course of action, what makes either one right? Majority rules? Just something worth thinking about, and it's something that moral high-horse drug perceptions always gets me thinking about.




So basically, moral relativism? I agree with you here, although I still have my own ideas about my own morality, I recognize that nobody else's morality is innately better or worse than mine.


--------------------
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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921667 - 01/23/08 08:30 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

whose right?


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: g00ru]
    #7921681 - 01/23/08 08:32 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

OneLessForeskin said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational conversation here and you're jumping to extremes, and also throwing ridiculous assumptions out.

No, but some rapists truly don't see what they are doing as "bad." So if two conscious human beings can have two completely different perceptions about the validity of a certain course of action, what makes either one right? Majority rules? Just something worth thinking about, and it's something that moral high-horse drug perceptions always gets me thinking about.




So basically, moral relativism? I agree with you here, although I still have my own ideas about my own morality, I recognize that nobody else's morality is innately better or worse than mine.




That's all I'm saying.

It's easy to watch the cocaine user and say, "Ha! My drugs are so much 'better' than his are."

Doesn't make you right though. That's a moral judgment you keep to yourself and move through the world with. But pushing it on people, running around saying "good drugs" and "bad drugs" - it's just counterproductive. There are safe and responsible ways to do every drug.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921687 - 01/23/08 08:33 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
whose right?




Who's*

Great question. Many would say those with power and might are the ones who are right. But that's just a product of the situation.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921763 - 01/23/08 08:45 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

lol whoops, caught me. yeah i'll agree it is subjective, but i'll at least classify people as good, bad, and neutral.

ps. i didn't say "good" drugs "bad" drugs. i said good/responsible users and abusers.

pps. i would classify people who spread negativity as "bad", love as "good" and both in equal amounts as neutral. i'd say that can be viewed objectively.


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Everybody's a ninja...


Edited by KrishnaDreamer (01/23/08 08:56 PM)


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921832 - 01/23/08 08:58 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I'd say nothing is inherently bad or good. It's all relative. For one thing to be good, you must compare it to something else that is bad, and it's entirely dependent on your point of view in determining if something is bad. To a rapist rape might not be bad, does that make it good? I'd say no more so than the majority of people saying rape is bad. Just because someone is in the majority it doesn't make it the 'right' opinion. It just makes it the opinion that the majority of people have. That is all.

I don't think rape is good, (I in fact think it's one of the most cruel things that you can do to someone), I'm just trying to prove a point.


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: krypto2000]
    #7921847 - 01/23/08 09:02 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

well, if their definition of bad is good, then yeah that'll make sense. since they are doing bad, they are bad. i don't believe if one thinks it's good to harm someone, that its good.


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7921968 - 01/23/08 09:25 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
pps. i would classify people who spread negativity as "bad", love as "good" and both in equal amounts as neutral. i'd say that can be viewed objectively.




That can't be viewed objectively at all.

What you think of as "negativity" might not be what I think of as negativity. You might think posting scat porn in OTD is negative. I think it's mildly hilarious.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7922194 - 01/23/08 10:12 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

there are levels of negativity, negativity is anything that brings harm to someone, evil.


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922204 - 01/23/08 10:14 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
there are levels of negativity, negativity is anything that brings harm to someone, evil.




Sorry but you still don't seem to understand. Harm is in the eye of the beholder, and there are many levels and types of harm.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7922216 - 01/23/08 10:17 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

im pretty sure the concept of harming is pretty universal.


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Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922270 - 01/23/08 10:25 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Action does not necessarily just produce harm. You can't, at all, hope to never harm anyone. I broke up with my girlfriend of four and a half years. Did I harm her? Absolutely. She is still hurt. I would almost go so far as to say shattered. But I did what I had to do, and I think less of how I harmed her and more of how I freed myself to move on with my life. So was breaking up with her evil because it harmed her? You're walking a tight rope when you say that harming people is evil.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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Offlinezoombie
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922277 - 01/23/08 10:27 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

but someone might not consider a certain activity/drug harmful whereas you might.


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Offlinetsquad
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922282 - 01/23/08 10:27 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Negativity may be something that brings harm to someone, but that doesn't make the negative action evil. You get paid at your job. That is negative to your employer. Is it evil for you to get paid? No. At least not from my moral perspective, maybe your employer thinks otherwise :wink:


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922362 - 01/23/08 10:41 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

ok maybe doing harm doesn't incur evil, but the point is still valid that harmful actions bring negativity.


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922388 - 01/23/08 10:45 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

tsquad said:
Negativity may be something that brings harm to someone, but that doesn't make the negative action evil. You get paid at your job. That is negative to your employer. Is it evil for you to get paid? No. At least not from my moral perspective, maybe your employer thinks otherwise :wink:




actually its neutral. the amount paid is relative to the work.


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Everybody's a ninja...


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Offlinetsquad
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922403 - 01/23/08 10:47 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Well, that is the whole thing...you don't think that you getting paid is harmful. To the employer, it is. To you it is not negative, to them, it is. I think that's the point Foreskin's (haha) trying to make. It's not wrong for you to think what you think, or hold your views on harmful actions or negativity, but those views are subjective and may vary from person to person. There is no universal good or bad action.

edit: Good point. Perhaps a poor example on my part, but I think you get what I'm saying


Edited by tsquad (01/23/08 10:49 PM)


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Offlinefuckusernames
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922485 - 01/23/08 11:01 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

This alone, will change your entire outlook on people; or at least it did for me. I hate trying to explain it to someone that just cant understand it. But I always want to try because i know how it made me feel about the world.


Edited by fuckusernames (01/23/08 11:03 PM)


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922513 - 01/23/08 11:06 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate

for foreskin - i can't really judge that particular action because i don't know the circumstances, but yes, i would say that there was some element of evil in that.


--------------------
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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7922662 - 01/23/08 11:42 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

define love and then define hate.

you can't do it in terms that are objective because they don't really exist, at least not in the way you seem to
think they do.

Plus they are not really opposites.

I would say that connectedness and separation are the universal feelings that you are looking for. There is no
way to prove that however.


If you have ever tripped hard with someone else you probably know something about them, but it's hard to say they
are truly universal although I think they may be the only universal human experiences, but you just have to trust
that thats true since there is no way to really even define these experiences either. In English anyway.

Love is something else even though it is tied closely with connectedness it's an emotion and therefore subjective,
not an experience which is at the most basic of levels (connected vs. separated) objective human experience.

There are lots of gray areas in there, and the language we are using is not the best. I could throw out the word
qualia, in order to replace the word experience since it isn't a good word and it causes confusion.


I agree with most of what people are saying though, although I am obviously not in line with the whole existential bit.
I think that seeing as we are all humans there are universal experiences (qualia as defined as the actual experience and
not the experience of that experience, see why experience is a bad word) that we can have that are objective simply because
they are actually universal.

Some people experience connectedness as god, others and "oneness" others as jesus, it's all the same feeling though.
Obviously, again this is just a theory although I think it is correct you just have to trust that everyone is having the same
experience since there is no way to ever know for sure, but I think they are.

I would say the oneness (seeing as I am calling this other thing connectedness) thing is probably the best description although
if you have never felt it you don't get it. Basically it's a religious experience at the most primal level one that all reli-
gious experiences are built upon, but in your brain, your culture and personal history, beliefs and memories (past exper-
iences of qualia) all come together (along with your current set of input signals) to create the context of the experience.


It's more complicated than that, but the point is that there are
no good drugs and there are no bad drugs, or people, there are
only drugs and people and even that is debatable. :P


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7922956 - 01/24/08 01:51 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

love is that warm and fuzzy feeling deep down inside, hate is that feeling where you want to kill someone. they're actually energies. your religious experiences are subjective.


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OfflineDioxyde
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7923640 - 01/24/08 10:12 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.


--------------------
"...and only when you forget you are human, will you remember you are a God."


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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7923761 - 01/24/08 10:53 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

yeah, see your not making any sense. Those aren't good definitions at all. Your being a bit simplistic as far as the love hate thing goes.
You need to be more specific not just repeat a hallmark card and expect that to work. define energies.

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer

your religious experiences are subjective.





Thats what I said actually. and I explained why they are subjective,
but what I am proposing is that the elemental "qualia" that is the basis of that experience is the only truly universal human experience
because it represents the most basic of signals (like the senses). It is like any other sense and it is just that every human has the
capability to experience it. Perhaps some don't (like being blind) which would explain some people.

what I am saying is that your "warm fuzzy feeling" doesn;t exist to
everyone in the same way, I would not describe love as a warm fuzzy feeling. I can't even begin to know how to imagine a warm emotion,
much less a fuzzy one. What you need to do is expand your rhetoric in order to be more specific. Warm and fuzzy are subjective. I wouldn't
describe hate as a feeling as though I want to kill someone, at least not literally and if you aren't speaking literally you aren't defining
it very well and again not being objective. Hate is more complicated and so is love. At least the way I would define them, probably
because I define them based on more than just my own experience because they are cultural words and belong to a language spawned from
that culture and therefore mean something other than what a single person experiences. In fact they mean a lot of things to a lot of
people but the word is trying to describe something that most people feel in similar ways. People who say that they don't believe love
exists either cannot feel love or feel it in a way not relevant to their cultures definition of what love should be (like warm and fuzzy)
and therefore cannot recognize it when they feel it, some would say they aren't feeling love at all at that point and I would tend to
agree.


Love is like I said tied in with connectedness (in general) but it is
more specific and it describes more than one emotion and it describes a many number of things that are really quite complex. If we are
talking about love as in the cultural idea of true love that is, which is a separate category that seems to be created to describe love in
more specific idealist way because of everyone's confusion about what the word love actually means. You see these things aren't black and
white and human language can never impart experiences to people it can only impart information, which are not experiences.


Connectedness as I would try to describe it is a "oneness" or a
feeling of "peace" and connection to everyone and everything. It is not specific however often times in the absence of clear triggers for
this feeling the mind creates contexts that become specific based on the person experiencing it. Even in the presence of triggers (drugs,
meditation, ect.) people often give context to these experiences as a way to understand them in relation to their believes before. That is
what I mean by "religious experience".

Anytime you begin to give context or assign information to a raw
experience it becomes subjective. You see, literally see, the same things I do when we are in the same room, however your brain drapes
these sensory inuts over your psyche like a sheet and therefore everything you look at has context and therefore everything you
actually perceive is actually subjective, but the qualia that we are both receiving in our brains is the same. This cannot be proven of
course but it seems most likely since we are all humans. We all generally except that what we are all seeing is red, for instance and
it doesn't matter whether my red is your blue (as in if I saw the way you see red I would call it blue).

This experience is the same thing it is a raw sensory experience that
we all have the ability to take in and then give context to. It is an archetypal experience available to us only by some unknown reason
but inherent in every human being.


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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Dioxyde]
    #7923785 - 01/24/08 11:02 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Dioxyde said:
Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.





Hey man, believing everything is subjective is just a logical imperative. It does not mean there is no right or wrong, it just means there is no universal right and wrong. It is up to you to define your values and your own set of beliefs.

Child molestation is bad in the context of your culture and your own beliefs, however you have to allow for the fact that there could be a culture who doesn't agree with you. in their eyes it is not harmful and nothing to worry about, and the children wouldn't even care because thats the culture they exist in, do you see? So it is not wrong from their point of view.

The only way to justify this is to say that they're not right and your not right you just have different beliefs. So there is no universal wrong and right.


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OfflineF1234K
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7923802 - 01/24/08 11:07 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Take me down.......to wonky townnnn


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OfflineDioxyde
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7923945 - 01/24/08 12:03 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

JstHereFrTheCake said:
Quote:

Dioxyde said:
Krishna I am with you on this.

There are definitely evil people in the world. Not people who who think they are doing good, but know they are hurting people and doing it on purpose to feed their ego or justify themselves in some way. I used to think everything was subjective especially when I was eating mushrooms a lot, then I realized the importance of spreading love and good energy into myself and those around me and you can't really help anyone or get anything done when you believe that everything is subjective and I can't look at the tragedies in my life and the lives of loved ones that have been ruined or scarred by people like child molesters, murderers and thieves. I think there are people who have confronted evil and there are those who choose to believe it doesn't exist, fantasy land IMO.





Hey man, believing everything is subjective is just a logical imperative. It does not mean there is no right or wrong, it just means there is no universal right and wrong. It is up to you to define your values and your own set of beliefs.

Child molestation is bad in the context of your culture and your own beliefs, however you have to allow for the fact that there could be a culture who doesn't agree with you. in their eyes it is not harmful and nothing to worry about, and the children wouldn't even care because thats the culture they exist in, do you see? So it is not wrong from their point of view.

The only way to justify this is to say that they're not right and your not right you just have different beliefs. So there is no universal wrong and right.




Valid point but I am not talking about people who honestly believe in their hearts that they are not harming someone with their actions I am speaking of people who are aware they are causing harm and do it willingly.


--------------------
"...and only when you forget you are human, will you remember you are a God."


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OfflineOrbital_Saucer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7923986 - 01/24/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate





I would say fear is the universal negative. Hate is just disguised fear.


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OfflineCMACD
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7924253 - 01/24/08 01:29 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

KRISHNA, STOP TRYING TO DISSECT HIS OPEN-MINDED ARGUMENT WITH YOUR CLOSED-MINDED RAZOR.


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: CMACD]
    #7924300 - 01/24/08 01:43 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

lol... yeah that was simplistic. energies are the vibrational frequencies permeating throughout all matter, time, and space. thats about as objective as you can get.

i will admit i was wrong in some of the above arguments, but like said above, it's difficult with current terminology as they're not specific enough and don't adequately describe the experience.

again your feelings of connectedness are subjective as well, i doubt very few people feel connected. are they connected? sure, but the feeling of it is subjective.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Edited by KrishnaDreamer (01/24/08 01:58 PM)


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Offlinewhy_not_me
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7936231 - 01/26/08 05:17 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:


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Feed Your Head.


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OfflineF1234K
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7936337 - 01/26/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

why_not_me said:
Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:




qft


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Im Not Living, Im Just Killing Time


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Offlinegilesypopper
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: why_not_me]
    #7936356 - 01/26/08 05:50 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

why_not_me said:
Anyways,ketamine rocks:rockon:




I prefer ketamine crytals!!! (ba-da-dum drumroll!!)  :grin:  :heart:


--------------------
Law breakers, law makers, let us fight them all, why not.


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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7937202 - 01/26/08 08:24 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
lol... yeah that was simplistic. energies are the vibrational frequencies permeating throughout all matter, time, and space. thats about as objective as you can get.

...

again your feelings of connectedness are subjective as well, i doubt very few people feel connected. are they connected? sure, but the feeling of it is subjective.




Well Krishna, I don't believe I ever said "connectedness" is objective only that I am proposing that it is the only universal human
experience and therefore the closest thing to objective a human can feel. Perhaps there are aliens that cannot feel it and feel something
else instead or nothing at all, I don't know I am not an alien. In this sense it may as well be objective.

I should stress the need to not let the word "connectedness" throw you. Like I said I am describing an experience that has no word. You
cannot understand the experience by the name it is given. I have read many many trip reports that describe it, I have talked to many many
people who have felt it, and I have tripped with people and we have all felt it simultaneously. However if you have never felt it then
you can't know, the word connectedness is just the best descriptive word I can use to describe the concept of the experience because I
really can not touch the experience itself.

Like I said before this idea is all about trusting that this experience is the same because of the way it happens and the way
everyone who has had it tends to feel during it. I can't prove it is the same, but it seems likely.


To address the energies thing, your description still lacks substance, you are trying to describe something that you have no understanding of
and probably can't. Love is not an energy, it is a state of mind within the context of the human brain. Hate as well. they are very
complicated concepts.

Truly it seems nothing a human can experience is ever objective, we can look at the same thing but we see it from different angles even if
we only count the visual qualia of that experience we are still seeing something unique to eachother.

The thing that makes the idea of this experience of connection important is that it is not based on location or values, it is not
based on any fact other than being human. I believe it is simple because it seems as though humans always have access to it, however it
takes the breaking down (apart) of the mind in order to located the experience. It is singular, there doesn't appear to be any sub levels
of it, it just is. It is not something that can only be experienced at a certain point in space and time. It is always there it just takes
opening your mind to realize it. Like opening your eyes.

It is not an energy it is simply something humans seem to have the ability to sense and to experience. In fact I am not even talking
about the thing we sense just the actual sensation of it.


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7937394 - 01/26/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

so you have never felt "good" vibes and "bad" vibes? my definition makes more sense.

and your right, if i have never felt this "connectedness" feeling, than it doesn't exist. therefore it is a subjective experience.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7938673 - 01/27/08 12:44 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Ketamine is pretty nice, dont hate whoever is


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InvisibleBlend
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Robo]
    #7939089 - 01/27/08 04:23 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

This whole subjective, objective mess is tricky.
I agree with OneLessForeskin.  To me its just common knowledge.
The thing is, you can agree with either argument, and you're not right.  And you're not wrong.
In the same sense, both arguments are right and wrong. 
Do you see what I mean?
Because neither argument can be proven.  Because reality is subjective.  Or reality is objective.  Neither can be right which means reality is subjective, right?  No?  :hehehe:

It is.
It isn't.
This is the meaning of life.
No it isn't.

So OMR, while you are right - you can't be right.  Just saying reality is subjective is paradoxical.  Do you agree?  You're wrong.
No matter how you turn this thing, it will never make any sense. 
A paradox is by definition something that simply cannot exist.
Yet, the way I see it, existence itself is a paradox.

Fucking trip, life is.


Edited by Blend (01/27/08 04:51 AM)


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InvisibleBlend
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: CMACD]
    #7939101 - 01/27/08 04:30 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

CMACD said:
KRISHNA, STOP TRYING TO DISSECT HIS OPEN-MINDED ARGUMENT WITH YOUR CLOSED-MINDED RAZOR.




Who is to say who is open-minded/closed-minded?
This thread is fun. Inspirational, even.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Blend]
    #7939224 - 01/27/08 06:55 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Ah, Grasshoppers, true oneness is ineffable, it is open, clear, spontaneous, and perfect. It holds nothing back, has no prior motive, makes no plans, does not harm others.

Untrue oneness is oneupmanship, selfishness, greed, and sloth.

If you learn which oneness you act from you will know the tenor of your actions and their fruits.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7939592 - 01/27/08 10:21 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
so you have never felt "good" vibes and "bad" vibes? my definition makes more sense.

and your right, if i have never felt this "connectedness" feeling, than it doesn't exist. therefore it is a subjective experience.




No your definition doesn't really make more sense. You are basing your entire theory on a very loosey goosey way of describing things
which will never work. "good vibes" doesn't literally mean there are good energies vibrating from one person to the next. It is just
describing feeling good. If you want to get down into it it probably comes from the idea that one person feeling good will make another person
feel the same way, similar to a vibrating partical of air for instance (like sound). It is more about cause and effect than an idea that
there are actually vibrations of energy being exchanged. It's just a stupid hippy way of saying something and is not the basis for an
intellectual argument.

"Good vibes", like I said, is just feeling good, which is a state of mind. People feeling good can make you feel good just because we are
humans and animals and we sense what is going on around us and act accordingly. Dogs mirror the emotions of their owners for instance.
You can not take a state of mind and somehow distort it into cosmic energy.


To address your second sentence. You are misunderstanding what I said. Just because you have not seen the Pyramids of Egypt with your
eyes does not mean they do not exist. Their existence is not subjective. You just have not been in the proper point in space in
which to view them. The same is true for the qualia I am talking about expect instead of the signal from your retina you are receiving
a signal from someplace else in your brain or nervous system. This I have no comment on, however it doesn't matter because it is still
apparent that this qualia is interceptable by some mechanism of the brain. I could throw out the usual suspects like the pineal gland but
I don;t know or even have enough information to think that could be right.

However, like I have said in thinking about this experience it is clear that everyone is experiencing it in a similar to exactly the
same way. Which is way I believe it is the only universal human experience. I have already stated my observations on this subject so
I shouldn't need to again.

It is important to understand the idea of qualia. And that it is the raw signal your brain is receiving and not the experience of that,
because you will automatically begin to give it context which makes it subjective as it is your brain and unique psyche which are assigning
information to create that experience.


Edited by JstHereFrTheCake (01/27/08 10:27 AM)


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Offlineriby
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7939639 - 01/27/08 10:39 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)
Log in to view attachment

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate

.




haven't you seen donnie darko??? it's love and FEAR.

dude, the point from what i can tell that is trying to be expressed, is that, good and bad are non tangible ideas, you have this idea of good and bad and they exist unfortunatly as nothing more then a thought or a feeling. you cant hold good and bad in your hands and say, this is good, this IS what good is. there what this philosopher that said that useing the term IS can be very confusing and generally leads to ambiguities that people don't even notice or can decipher.
so a tangent to what is being said is that, you can't say someone IS bad because sure they might have done something harmful and might still want to keep doing it. but that peraon isn't the tangible manifestation of the concept of bad. they are still and always a person with actions, they are not the notion of BAD or GOOD. its like that painting translated from french is called 'this is not a pipe' and what it was was a picture, painted in great detail the image of a tobacco pipe. so when you say someone is good or bad, its misleading in a sense, its doesn't define or describe the person really at all.


however, besides details, most people know what you mean by saying he is a bad person or a good guy, but really they are no more then just an expression. same why if you see a painting, its fine to say, that's a landscape. but as we all know its a painting of a landscape, and that person is being bad.


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Offlinerushofblood
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: riby]
    #7940861 - 01/27/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

and isn't fear just the absence of love?


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: awesomebastard]
    #7940924 - 01/27/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

awesomebastard said:
i cant believe no one will help him get off the street,lol people suck.




that's because most ppl in russia walk like that.


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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #7942182 - 01/27/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

obviously my ideas were misinterpreted, which is my fault. what i was trying to say is that there are positives and negatives, yin and yang, whether these are interpreted as good or bad is subjective... but not really. there are an infinite number of frequencies, take for example a guitar player playing a sad song, he's putting energy into that which is of a part of the frequency scale. playing certain music instills certain emotions in people. there are notes that are "happy" and "sad".


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Everybody's a ninja...


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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #7942518 - 01/27/08 08:36 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Actually thats exactly what I thought you were saying. I don't think I have been misinterpreting anything.

What I am trying to do is get you to do is formulate a theory that uses more than bland and cliche'd mysticism to try and boil complex
human-environment interactions down into ten word catch phrases.

Thats all really. Now I may not be able to disprove the existence of magic rays of happy and sad and love and hate that fly around the
universe and make people react accordingly. I also can't disprove the existence of invisible unicorns. I can however try to get you to see
that there are much better, albeit more complex, explanations for why these things take place. Explanations based on thoughtful observation
and backed by scientific evidence and knowledge about how the human brain actually works.

I am not saying that science has all the answers it doesn't. It has very few if any at all in this realm of discussion. But I don't
believe that gives everyone some creative license to go making up anything they want. It still has to make sense with how we understand
things presently as a species.

All I am saying is that your theory is a logical improbability to the the point of really not making any sense because like I said it's a
bunch of ambiguous mystic nonsense.

There are theories however a little more in the direction you are talking about that are more developed and make a little more sense. I
would refer you to them but I can not remember what they are called. But theories about human brains imposing realities and effecting
realities through their thoughts. Things like that, based on the idea of actual vibrations and physical cause and effect things of certain
thoughts in the brain. Interesting and strange but they sorta make sense.

I enjoyed our discussion but I am gonna move on and maybe spend a little time refining this idea as honestly I just kinda formulated it
as I posted the first time. Never really thought about this before but I kinda hit on something interesting for me I guess. There is
probably something I haven't seen yet that makes this rather useless but for now it seems like an interesting avenue of thought and
research.

I feel like continuing would just be going over ground we have already covered.


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InvisibleDay Tripper
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: JstHereFrTheCake]
    #7942575 - 01/27/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

An inanimate material cannot be considered good or bad, the concept of good or bad comes from your ego.


--------------------
Death is inevitable, and therefore irrelevant, life is optional, and therefore irreplaceable.


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InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: Day Tripper]
    #7942714 - 01/27/08 09:05 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

yeah man i'm over it, all i'm saying is that all matter is created from energy, and that different types of matter are composed of energies that vibrate at different frequencies. its not mystical mumbo jumbo its quantum science.


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