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Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs?
    #2017150 -

Hi...I was just pondering on a thought last night regarding where to draw the line in recreational drug use. Over the years through high school, I have slowly moved along the path of recreational drug use from experimenting with pot to popping MDMA (not a roll monkey..only have eaten 8 total in my lifetime.) Every single time I decide I want to experiment with a new drug its kinda like: "Ok Im gonna take this but never touch that" but surely eneouph, I always end up touching "that". Heres my history timeline: 8th grade/Whip-its(nitrous)----9'th/grade mariguana and alcohol-----10'th grade more mariguana and alcohol----11'th grade/shrooms, LSD, xanax-valium and rolled after prom. 12'th grade/ Lots of shrooms, mescaline, LSD, Datura flower, a few more beans, lots more alcohol, and all the prescriptions....Percocet, Vicodin, Z-bars, aderol etc....
Well at this time in my life I decided this is where I draw the line...Im not going to ever touch Coke-heroin-Meth/Ice or anything else but most off I will never take drugs up the nose or through a needle. Well Im in my first year of college right now and over the past month I began snorting hydrocodone/valium and this passed week I snorted some Ketamine as well. I feel that I have crossed a dangerous bridge into a different realm of the drug world. I mean these past few days I've been really busy with school-job so I've been totally drug free and am still pretty strong on the no Coke-needles-Meth-heroin oath. But I still feel I have begun to walk down a dangerous road. What do you guys think? have I crossed the line?

-Orizon

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2017156 -

Self-produced drug barriers are the product of misinformation and propaganda, in my mind. Heroin addicts are portrayed much differently than that of any other drug...but how much do you actually know about IV use and heroin? I'll retract my statement if you prove me wrong, but I find that ignorance is the most common reason that people stray from certain drugs.

Just make sure you mix it up. Entheogens are, of course, the safest route. It's when you start snorting oxy/meth every day that you start running into problems. Moderation; when you start losing passion for your other hobbies, that's the first sign that there's a problem. When you wake up and the first thing on your mind is the next hit.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2017277 -

indeed, moderation is the key. I take a lot of drugs recreationally, but i stay on top for 2 reasons 1) I know a lot of things about the drugs i take (knowledge is the best weapon) and and i know my limits 2) I know when its time to stand back and have a pot only break, trust me they help. As dim says stereotypes of drugs and real life r too different things. Its not that your stronger than drugs, cos you never will be, its always staying responsible.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2017382 -

Maybe you should ask yourself why yolu are doing these drugs?
And do you feel bad afterwards? Generally, it's prob not a good idea to engage in activity that you don't feel positive about afterwards.
I am just noting this because it sounds like you have at least some ambivalence towards some of these experiences.
Maybe just try to keep in mind what you want out of the drug experience in question, how it works in your life as it is, and what you are expecting from yourself. It's not a bad idea to back off for a bit and re-evaulate it all. The drugs will still be there for you to try later.


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trying to lose the monkey mind a little bit

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2017640 -

DiMiTriSouljah said:
Self-produced drug barriers are the product of misinformation and propaganda, in my mind. Heroin addicts are portrayed much differently than that of any other drug...but how much do you actually know about IV use and heroin? I'll retract my statement if you prove me wrong, but I find that ignorance is the most common reason that people stray from certain drugs.



What the FUCK!??! That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yeah... what a dumbass he is for not wanting to try heroin meth and all that other stupid fucking addict shit. Maybe the way he doesn't want to go that way is becaus he isn't a fucking idiot. It doesnt have ANYTHING to do with misinformation and propoganda, if you find yourself doing heroin, somethings fucked up.


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2017684 -

"if you find yourself doing heroin, somethings fucked up."

Why? Because your D.A.R.E. officer told you so? Don't be such a puppet. You discredit yourself by being a belligerent little child. "fuck fuck fuck fuck" Grow up and quit listening to the TV.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2017711 -

It is interesting to see us place our own moral values upon others while we sit back and bitch about others doing the same to us. The logic I see above is that it is fine if you do the drugs I do, but if you are doing "harder" drugs than I think is proper, then "something is fucked up". Replace heroin with cannabis and use alcohol as the 'morally proper drug to do' and you are no different than any other anti-drug campainer. "It's fine to drink, but if you are smoking weed, then something is fucked up." Does nobody else hear this echo?

Edit: mis-quick reply, this wasn't directed at you, DiMiTriSouljah.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2017755 -

Bingo. Right on the head, my friend.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2017767 -

I agree that heroin is overly portrayed as evil but I believe anti-H campaigns have more credit than anti-marijuana campaigns and anti-acid ones.

A good read on heroin is "Junkie" by William S. Burroughs. I have never done it and don't think I ever will, but this book gives a very good insight into a mind which has been on and off skag repeatedly and addiction and so on.

I also believe that entheogens have more merits than opiates and other such drugs as tools to explore your consciousness, although Burroughs makes interesting comments about some of the properties of heroin (he reckons if a person was kept on a steady flow of "junk" they would live to a "Phenomenal age"...not too sure myself hehe.)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Ajoc]
    #2017812 -

all drugs have a purpose, what would we do with out painkillers and anesthetics? imagine having surgery, yikes! theres nothing wrong with occasional drug use, opiates are one of the safest drugs on your brain, although they have a high addiction potential but thats why you dont abuse them. and without amphetamine imagine all the adhd kids running around. what im saying is all drugs serve some purpose. and what is "evil" or "bad" is all in the eye of the beholder.


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Infrared]
    #2018084 -

"all drugs have a purpose"

and didnt they derive novacaine (you know, that shit the dentist numbs you up with) from cocaine?

anyway, for me, i stay away from drugs i cant handle. cocaine for one, had a real fun time with that stuff, but i lost control. so i quit... well, cut back rather...i still use cocaine like every month or so...spacing my dances with coke like that is the only way i can keep control right now :tongue: 


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how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2018106 -

Yeah man, it's all about knowing yourself, thus my suggestion to mix it up.

You learn a helluva lot about yourself from the entheogens, but it's difficult (both tolerance-wise and fatigue-wise) to take a mind-bending trip every day and sometimes it's nice to just kick back and relax with an opiate or get drunk and disorderly with a group of friends...or even *gasp* be sober and just absorb everything.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2018110 -

double post.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

Edited by Solitude (10/17/03 02:04 PM)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2018111 -

it all depends are your true strentgh. if u say im not touching that hold stedfast and dont change it, personally i have told myslef i will decide when the time comes, but its generally a good idea to stay away from needles and shit. just dont let urself think like this: "well ill just try it this one time" or "but this is diffrent" or anything of the sort. no exceptions otherwise you will continue to make exceptions, trust me i was in that rut, and that is why i have changed my outlook on "drawing the line" however i will never prick myself to get bent, period. good luck stay, focused.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Solitude]
    #2018128 -

Intravenous (or otherwise) injection is just another method of administration and is as safe as any other method if you do it properly. Though of course I wouldn't recommend that everyone do it, because as you say if depends on your strengths, as some people don't have the will-power to moderate themselves on some drugs. I just hate to see anything in the drug world get stigmatized; refer to Seuss' above post.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2018131 -

"or even *gasp* be sober and just absorb everything."

:oogle: :eek:


lol, i agree completly. its just funny the way you put it. being sober is definitly the best "high" sometimes 


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how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2018680 -

Seuss said:
It is interesting to see us place our own moral values upon others while we sit back and bitch about others doing the same to us. The logic I see above is that it is fine if you do the drugs I do, but if you are doing "harder" drugs than I think is proper, then "something is fucked up". Replace heroin with cannabis and use alcohol as the 'morally proper drug to do' and you are no different than any other anti-drug campainer. "It's fine to drink, but if you are smoking weed, then something is fucked up." Does nobody else hear this echo?


Riiiight... let's just compare the possible harmful effects of cannabis use on one's life to those of heroin. Think they're the same? Cannabis isn't physically addicting, no overdose potential, etc.... Come on man, comparing heroin to weed is absurd.

Now, if one can remain unaddicted to highly addicting drugs while using, more power to them. But sadly this is not the case in the majority of users.

So basically what you're saying is that a user of heroin shouldn't be at all alarmed at their use? And the line between being addicted and unaddicted can easily become blurred beyond recognition in the mind of the user until it's too late. Sorry if I'm coming across as a dare-kiddie because that's not the case.

I just don't think those drugs are worth it.

Furthermore, needles are NOT just as safe as other routes of ingestion, it's MUCH easier to overdose due to impurities in the drug, can collapse veins, etc...


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2018964 -

Comparing Weed to Heroin is just as blind as the idiots who compare weed to Datura. Just because they are both drugs doesnt mean one is safer than the other. I can Assure you Cannabis is A HELLUVA lot more safer than Smack.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2019000 -

I draw the line at needles. I have not, nor will I, inject drugs with a needle.

Other than that...I drew lines and walked over them. I tried, then used, cocaine. I had said I would never use coke or heroin...now all that's left is heroin.

However...I don't think I misstepped anywhere. Having used most basic "types" of drugs, I know which types I enjoy and which I don't. I don't enjoy stimulants, so I don't take them.  :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: trendal]
    #2019027 -

Ive drawn lines from the very first time i took a toke, and more knowledgeable and absolutely obsessed i became with every aspect of drug *culture* and the more i integrated it into my life, the more lines i stepped over.

I literally dream of the day when i get to play with needles *scared shittless*


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: PDU]
    #2019201 -

every month or at least bday. look at your life and if your not doing or beign who u truelly wnat to be. thats when u have to change.


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And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the man]
    #2019394 -

????


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Infrared]
    #2019694 -

There is no doubt that needles is a big line to step over.....however I was wondering if snorting drugs is forbidden line as well?....for this is the point of drug use I am at. I am having a blast doing them...(its not like I do drugs I dont enjoy) I just dont want to get caught up in a mix that is dangerous to my overall well being. I also noticed somebody put Oxy's in the same category as meth. Well I like percocet and since I recently discovered that Percocet is just oxy and tylenol, Ive decided to just play around with oxy's for the sake of my liver. Meth-coke and heroin are the substances I am aware of that have directly destroyed many peoples lives.

-Orizon

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2019697 -

On April 3 1924, a group of American congressmen held an official hearing to consider the future of heroin. They took sworn evidence from experts, including the US surgeon general, Rupert Blue, who appeared in person to tell their committee that heroin was poisonous and caused insanity and that it was particularly likely to kill since its toxic dose was only slightly greater than its therapeutic dose.
They heard, too, from specialist doctors, such as Alexander Lambert of New York's Bellevue hospital, who explained that "the herd instinct is obliterated by heroin, and the herd instincts are the ones which control the moral sense ... Heroin makes much quicker the muscular reaction and therefore is used by criminals to inflate them, because they are not only more daring, but their muscular reflexes are quicker." Senior police, a prison governor and health officials all added their voices. Dr S Dana Hubbard, of the New York City health department, captured the heart of the evidence: "Heroin addicts spring from sin and crime ... Society in general must protect itself from the influence of evil, and there is no greater peril than heroin."

The congressmen had heard much of this before and now they acted decisively. They resolved to stop the manufacture and use of heroin for any purpose in the United States and to launch a worldwide campaign of prohibition to try to prevent its manufacture or use anywhere in the world. Within two months, their proposal had been passed into law with the unanimous backing of both houses of the US Congress. The war against drugs was born.

To understand this war and to understand the problems of heroin in particular, you need to grasp one core fact. In the words of Professor Arnold Trebach, the veteran specialist in the study of illicit drugs: "Virtually every 'fact' testified to under oath by the medical and criminological experts in 1924 ... was unsupported by any sound evidence." Indeed, nearly all of it is now directly and entirely contradicted by plentiful research from all over the world. The first casualty of this war was truth and yet, 77 years later, the war continues, more vigorous than ever, arguably the longest-running conflict on earth.

Take heroin as a single example. And it's a tough example. In medical terms, it is simply an opiate, technically known as diamorphine, which metabolises into morphine once it enters its user's body. But, in terms of the war against drugs, it is the most frightening of all enemies. Remember all that those congressmen were told about "the great peril". Remember the Thatcher government's multimillion pound campaign under the slogan "Heroin screws you up". Think of Tony Blair at the 1999 Labour party conference fulminating about the "drug menace" or of William Hague last year calling for "a stronger, firmer, harder attack on drugs than we have ever seen before". And now look at the evidence.

Start with the allegation that heroin damages the minds and bodies of those who use it, and consider the biggest study of opiate use ever conducted, on 861 patients at Philadelphia General hospital in the 20s. It concluded that they suffered no physical harm of any kind. Their weight, skin condition and dental health were all unaffected. "There is no evidence of change in the circulatory, hepatic, renal or endocrine functions. When it is considered that some of these subjects had been addicted for at least five years, some of them for as long as 20 years, these negative observations are highly significant."

Check with Martindale, the standard medical reference book, which records that heroin is used for the control of severe pain in children and adults, including the frail, the elderly and women in labour. It is even injected into premature babies who are recovering from operations. Martindale records no sign of these patients being damaged or morally degraded or becoming criminally deviant or simply insane. It records instead that, so far as harm is concerned, there can be problems with nausea and constipation.

Or go back to the history of "therapeutic addicts" who became addicted to morphine after operations and who were given a clean supply for as long as their addiction lasted. Enid Bagnold, for example, who wrote the delightful children's novel, National Velvet, was what our politicians now would call "a junkie", who was prescribed morphine after a hip operation and then spent 12 years injecting up to 350mg a day. Enid never - as far as history records - mugged a single person or lost her "herd instinct", but died quietly in bed at the age of 91. Opiate addiction was once so common among soldiers in Europe and the United States who had undergone battlefield surgery that it was known as "the soldiers' disease". They spent years on a legal supply of the drug - and it did them no damage.

We cannot find any medical research from any source which will support the international governmental contention that heroin harms the body or mind of its users. Nor can we find any trace of our government or the American government or any other ever presenting or referring to any credible version of any such research. On the contrary, all of the available research agrees that, so far as harm is concerned, heroin is likely to cause some nausea and possibly severe constipation and that is all. In the words of a 1965 New York study by Dr Richard Brotman: "Medical knowledge has long since laid to rest the myth that opiates observably harm the body." Peanut butter, cream and sugar, for example, are all far more likely to damage the health of their users.

Now, move on to the allegation that heroin kills its users. The evidence is clear: you can fatally overdose on heroin. But the evidence is equally clear, that - contrary to the claims of politicians - it is not particularly easy to do so. Opiates tend to suppress breathing, and doctors who prescribe them for pain relief take advantage of this to help patients with lung problems. But the surprising truth is that, in order to use opiates to suppress breathing to the point of death, you have to exceed the normal dose to an extreme degree. Heroin is unusually safe, because - contrary to what those US congressmen were told in 1924 - the gap between a therapeutic dose and a fatal dose is unusually wide.

Listen, for example, to Dr Teresa Tate, who has prescribed heroin and morphine for 25 years, first as a cancer doctor and now as medical adviser to Marie Curie Cancer Care. We asked her to compare heroin with paracetamol, legally available without prescription. She told us: "I think that most doctors would tell you that paracetamol is actually quite a dangerous drug when used in overdose; it has a fixed upper limit for its total dose in 24 hours and if you exceed that, perhaps doubling it, you can certainly put yourself at great risk of liver failure and of death, whereas with diamorphine, should you double the dose that you normally were taking, I think the consequence would be to be sleepy for a while and quite possibly not much more than that and certainly no permanent damage as a result." Contrary to the loudly expressed view of so many politicians, this specialist of 25 years' experience told us that when heroin is properly used by doctors, it is "a very safe drug".

Heroin can be highly addictive - which is a very good reason not to start taking it. In extreme doses, it can kill. But the truth which has been trampled under the cavalry of the drug warriors is that, properly prescribed, pure heroin is a benign drug. The late Professor Norman Zinberg, who for years led the study of drug addiction at Harvard Medical School, saw the lies beneath the rhetoric: "To buttress our current programme, official agencies, led originally by the old Federal Bureau of Narcotics, have constructed myth after myth. When pushers in schoolyards, 'drug progression', drugs turning brains to jelly, and other tales of horror are not supported by facts, they postulate and publicise others: 'drugs affect chromosomes'; 'drugs are a contagious disease'. Officials go on manufacturing myths such as the chromosome scare long after they are disproved on the self-righteous assumption that if they have scared one kid off using drugs, it was worth the lie."

Take away the lies and the real danger becomes clear - not the drugs, but the black market which has been created directly by the policy of prohibition. If ever there is a war crimes trial to punish the generals who have gloried in this slaughter of the innocent, the culprits should be made to carve out in stone: "There is no drug known to man which becomes safer when its production and distribution are handed over to criminals."

Heroin, so benign in the hands of doctors, becomes highly dangerous when it is cut by black-market dealers - with paracetamol, drain cleaner, sand, sugar, starch, powdered milk, talcum powder, coffee, brick dust, cement dust, gravy powder, face powder or curry powder. None of these adulterants was ever intended to be injected into human veins. Some of them, such as drain cleaner, are simply toxic and poison their users. Others - sand or brick dust - are carried into tiny capillaries and digital blood vessels where they form clots, cutting off the supply of blood to fingers or toes. Very rapidly, venous gangrene sets in, the tissue starts to die, the fingers or toes go black and then have only one destiny: amputation. Needless suffering - inflicted not by heroin, but by its black-market adulterants.





http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,506507,00.html


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2019850 -

crossing the line....depends on the individual
mabye fear plays a factor (ex. needles), or a certain stigma that is attached to a drug , or a personal encounter with an individual that has allowed a drug to degrade their chosen style of living and health (putting themselves and others around them in danger)

for me i have adopted the " I will try anything once" under safe, clean , and responsible conditions




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Take a music bath once or twice a week for a few seasons, and you will find that it is to the soul what the water bath is to the body.
Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: twistedweather]
    #2019864 -

I have used heroin before many times. I had never used enough to get physical withdrawals and I even injected it once (or had someone else for me rather) I personally didn't like the way the injecting felt in comparison to snorting it.

Injection is not a more dangerous way to use a drug, if one does it properly and takes care of their veins then it can actually be one of the least harmful. And if I remember correctly, opiates don't really damamge your body nearly as much as people think or the media portrays.

Injecting drugs happenes in hospitals and clinics all over the world, people also inject dpt, ketamine, and other substances (granted K is IM). The line to draw is one that will be forever subjective. If you use drugs, and are willing to accept that they are usually only dangerous when the user is not armed with the knowledge or the mindstate to handle them or use them responsibly, like driving a car or flying a plane.

I look at the stigma of needles as being similar to that of planes. There are so many people afraid of flying but would not think twice about hopping in a car, even though flying in a plane is actually safer if people would just think about it.

Snorting binders and such from pressed E pills could build up chalks and such in your lungs which isn't very healthy, smoke of any kind can irritate and damage your throat and lungs. People just have to research and figure out the best ways for them to use a substance safely and responsibly. The danger is within the individual not the drug.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2020090 -

All man-made recreational drugs are POISON  :thumbdown:

Stick with the ones God made and you will never go wrong  :wink:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #2020326 -

niteowl said:
Stick with the ones God made and you will never go wrong  :wink: 


Then that would include Heroin. 


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http://www.nramembership.org/

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2020358 -

> So basically what you're saying is that a user of heroin shouldn't be at all alarmed at their use?

What I am saying is let each person decide for themselves how much risk they are willing to take.

> Now, if one can remain unaddicted to highly addicting drugs while using, more power to them.

Highly addictive drugs, like nicotine and alcohol?  Or just the illegal kind like coke, meth, heroin, etc?

> I draw the line at needles. I have not, nor will I, inject drugs with a needle.

Same here.  :smile:  It is great to have such a choice.

> All man-made recreational drugs are POISON

Sure, whatever.

> Stick with the ones God made and you will never go wrong 

Yep... datura is about as safe as it gets, right?... can't go wrong with a God made plant, no sir.  (Datura is dangerous, be careful!)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2020418 -

Man fuck Seuss I'm done with this thread - do all the hard drugs you want. They have that name for a reason dumbass. Nicotine and alcohol aren't hard drugs.


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2020430 -

Yeah, they have that name for a reason, it's called a buzz word. Created by the people trying to regulate it, and now you're being their good little puppet and regurgitating their information to people who obviously know much more about the subject than you do. Well, I should let you get back to your knees, I'm sure Ashcroft's dick is getting cold.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2020511 -

> do all the hard drugs you want

Thats the spirit I am looking for.  Let me worry about myself, please.  :smile:

> Nicotine and alcohol aren't hard drugs.

Of course they are!  Nicotine is more adictive than heroin.  Alcohol is very easy to overdose on, and long term use destroys your liver.  More people die from nicotine and alcohol every year than all the other 'hard' drugs combined.  Just because something is legal doesn't mean it isn't bad for you. 

You certainly don't do your user name justice.  You remind me of the government... it is fine to be a free thinker as long as you think like we want you to think.  I don't mean this to be a personal attack, but I find it ironic that somebody would label themselves as open-minded and yet take such a close-minded, police-like view towards drug use.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2020524 -

go back and actually re-read what alex wrote, mmkay. "hard drug" is such a subjective pile of bullshit word used by the government to scare off kids. and you know nicotine is extremly poisonis, licking a fresh tobbaco leaf will probably kill you. and i bet more people die from alcohol each year than from heroin.


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Infrared]
    #2020661 -

licking a fresh tobbaco leaf will probably kill you....

huh?
really? interesting.... :shocked: 


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how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2020811 -

That is true....alcohol does kill alot more people than any other drug. Its funny how people think that just because alcohol is the only legal drug left in America...that its the only one that's OK to take. I wouldnt classify it in the same category as heroin, buts its still a big killer. I know that the cocaine plant be itself is very very toxic and kills in the matter of minutes if ever taken pure. Thats why its diluted with som much other shit....baby powder etc... SO in my eyes, "stick with mother earth's made drugs" doesnt hold much ground.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon] * 1
    #2020833 -

"hard" drugs(meth, coke, and heroin in particular) are so taboo because they've destroyed so many people's lives. People have stolen from their family, lost all their friends, been dishoned, lost their job, lost their kids, lost everything for those substances in particular. That's not to say they can't be used responsibly, but it is MUCH more difficult to do so than any of the "soft" drugs. People should definetly have taboo for the hard drugs, it has FUCKED many many people over. I think advocating their use is a very immoral and poor decision. But whatever you do, Seuss, is fine, it's your choice. However, not everyone is as strong as you, and you shouldn't tell people to do those drugs.


As for alcohol and nicotine. Alcohol is NOT as addictive as meth, coke or heroin. That's just not plausible. It may kill more people than anyone of those, but that's because it's so widely available and is accepted among America's most dominant social classes. I hate hearing people say "One drop of pure nicotine will kill you" or things of the sort because it is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about a drop of pure nicotine, we're talking abotu a tobacco cigarette which will kill over a period of MANY, MANY years. So if you say "licking a tobacco leaf could kill you" that's an interesting fact, but it has little to do with what we're talking about.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2020847 -

If licking a tobacco leaf could kill. then people who chew tobacco would die instantly.

Drugs like heroine, cocaine or hash have all been purified by man, making them MORE dangerous. If a person was to boil the leaves of the coca plant and drink the tea, then that would be much less dangerous that using the purified man-made cocaine. The same can be said about poppy plants, used to make heroine.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #2020938 -

Of course it is a givin that since alcohol is so readily available that it will kill more lives that less availalbe illegal drugs. But I personally dont think shrooms or mariguana are any more dangerous if not less dangerous than alcohol. Violence and deaths from drunk driving both erupt from alcohol as opposed to the peaceful users of Pot. And I dont know if this applies to anyone else but I can NOT drive a car when plastered..However I can easily when stoned. (maybe a little slower, but atleast Im not swerving all over the place). I mean alcohol was illegalized in the 50's and since all the mobster activity and Hooligans....the gov't just gave in. I certainyl dont endorse this notion, but if pot supporters were as aggresive as the Bootleggers back in the 50's then it would probally eventually become legal. But thats just not our style.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2020997 -

Orizon, prohibiton was during the 30's.

And I feel shrooms and marijuana are infinitely more safe than alcohol. But coke, heroin and meth are not, which is what I was referring to in my post.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #2021033 -

Quote:
niteowl said:
If licking a tobacco leaf could kill. then people who chew tobacco would die instantly.

Drugs like heroine, cocaine or hash have all been purified by man, making them MORE dangerous. If a person was to boil the leaves of the coca plant and drink the tea, then that would be much less dangerous that using the purified man-made cocaine. The same can be said about poppy plants, used to make heroine. 



So instead of shooting up some heroin I should try to extract some opiates from a plant since it is "natural" and inject it because it has not been refined? OMG what planet are you from, all drugs are natural, they come from natural sources. Second of all, with "man made" drugs there tends to be a certain level of expectation of quality. Sure it can be cut, but when someone does a home extraction their end product can tend to range in purites due to the experience/method used. Lets just say that I won't be doing out and extracting dmt and shooting it up, I would rather have your "more dangerous" lab grade..."

I am sorry if I am coming across as a bit short, but I am tied of people saying things to the extent of:
"I trust shrooms more than LSD, because it is a natural drug."

How can you call one chemical natural and another not? They all come from nature, its not like man just magically makes substances never before in existence appear before our eyes. LSD comes from natural sources, basically most drugs do. Everything is natural because it all comes from our world, so trusting something you pick and eat as opposed to a measured out amount of something seems a bit more risky to me.....

And since when does a more pure chemical = more dangerous to use?? I always thought it was the impurities which caused the most danger. When will people see that a chemical is a chemical, and its bullshit to think just because it is within the plant or taken out that one of the other is more safe to use. :shake:

  And how can anyone say alchohol is not a "hard drug". Seriously, alchohol must ruin or cost the government as much as any other hard drug or heroin. How many alcoholics ruin homes, get in drunk driving accidents, beat their kids, steal, etc. It is no less addictive. Any yea you can use nicotine as an example because what some of you seem to be saying is "a drug is ok even if it is more addictive so long as it only costs you tons of money and kills you slower." How do things like cancer not make tabbacco dangerous. Hvae you ever seen someone with lukemia or their throat cancer.... don't more people die from alchohol or cigarettes each year than all illegal drugs combined? How does that not make whichever one it is not a hard drug?

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2021086 -

Yep prohibition probally was in the 30's. (not very good with dates when stoned) But my point is that alcohol I think is more dangerous than Pot. Other harder shit is another story. I dont drink not so much because I concerned about the health issues but rather that its just not really my drug. And can put a dent in the wallet of a college kid. I only drink now when friends are buyin or at a kegger.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2021206 -

I would eventually like to try it all, but i think its all a matter of time and preperation and learning. You don't run before you can walk.


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I was pessimistic in my youth. Now I can just follow the Toronto Raptors.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Ole Field Trashe]
    #2021537 -

well said *claps* :laugh:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2022196 -

"So instead of shooting up some heroin I should try to extract some opiates from a plant since it is "natural" and inject it because it has not been refined."


Just by extracting the opiates, you have refined the plant. You have changed the plant into a purified chemical. It is no longer as Nature made it, it is now a man made product. That is where the mistake is made. There is a natural balance of chemicals in the plants. When man takes out a single chemical of a plant for his recreational use then he is not using the drug as nature intended.

Any plant used in excess can be bad, but all man made drugs are much more harmfull.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #2022443 -

>>"I should let you get back to your knees, I'm sure Ashcroft's dick is getting cold. "

LMFAO!!!!!

>>"Its funny how people think that just because alcohol is the only legal drug left in America...that its the only one that's OK to take. "

So true.


If you want to say "I should have the the right to legally posess and ingest mushrooms and marijuana", then you cant say "You shouldnt have the right to posess or injest cocaine and heroin".
I agree that there are drugs that are much more destructive and/or dangerous than others but the point is that I should have the legal right to eat/smoke/shoot anything I choose, because it is my body.


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"To know life you must fuck it in the liver." -Dr. Frankenstein, Andy Warhols Frankenstein

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2022487 -

"hard" drugs(meth, coke, and heroin in particular) are so taboo because they've destroyed so many people's lives. People have stolen from their family, lost all their friends, been dishoned, lost their job, lost their kids, lost everything for those substances in particular.

That's more to do with them being illegal than the drug itself. There are many thousands of soldiers who were addicted to heroin through being injured during the war and as long as they get a clean fresh supply from the doctor they can live a perfectly normal life. The thing that fucks people up is having to spend 20 hours a day trying to get enough money for the next fix. If it was prescribed they would have a chance to live a normal life.

Like Keith Richards said "I never had a heroin problem, I had a POLICE problem"


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2022648 -

There might be actual places heroin addicts can get heroin at in VanBC soon, depending on some votes, but this would be revolutionary. I feel that having safe injection sites that give them the heroin to shoot would eliminate any criminal element to people getting a fix. I know it sounds kind o crazy, but not to me really. No dealer on the street will be able to get rid of very much at all for free when someone can go to a clinic up to 3 times a day to take care of things without worrying how good it is and such.

So we shall see exactly what happens I guess. I have only positive feelings about it though. If this is a success imagine what kind of other ideas it might give them.... there is a breaking wave ahead of us. Even the fact that something like this is up for vote is pretty great.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2023428 -

For me personally, I plan on trying keep my drug use to pot, mushrooms, occasional beer, and I would consider other things like HBWR seeds etc. But, I just feel that anything that can easily be cut up with random shit, or things you need to inject are just not a very good path to go down. Its not because the actual drug that makes it a bad path, but just the facts that they are often cut, and I just think that using needles can be a bit more dangerous for someone who isn't educated. The black market aspect I guess i'm getting at. I think the reason people believe that drugs like alcohol or cigs are alright/better than other drugs is because they are sold legally, and no way could it be legal to sell things that are bad for you, right?? and though it is true that overdosing isn't as easy as it might be pitched by anti-drug ads or whatever, just the fact that they are overdoseable, and that you have to gauge your dose yourself just leads me to decide against using them. Can't smoke a lethal dose of pot, can't take a lethal dose of shrooms, don't have to stick needles in my arm, don't have to snort anything. Have fun, be responsible.


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We're all children here, so could we please start acting like it?

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: shwowsh]
    #2023711 -

"There are many thousands of soldiers who were addicted to heroin through being injured during the war and as long as they get a clean fresh supply from the doctor they can live a perfectly normal life."

What about if it was legal, and people still had to pay for it? What's the difference then? The only difference would most likely be the heroin being more pure, the addiction factor is the same. As for coke and meth, coke you could probably lead a relatively normal life on until your heart becomes so weak with tears that it fails, if it was legal that is. As for meth, I don't think so. Meth addicts are insane, it's jsut the drugs nature


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2024178 -

First of all, let me just say please do NOT use the word 'natural'. its one of the most stupid words in our language and means nothing. it is banned from most science classes. hemlock is natural, my sandwich is not. it means nothing.

in regards to the 'harder drugs' this is something ive been doing a lot of thinking about lately too. why do i draw the line where i do (so far)? now this might be just rationalizing myself but here goes anyway:

what makes 'hard drugs' hard is that combination of a high addiction level and high intoxication. tobacco, alcohol and marijuana (and caffeine) are more background drugs whereas the intoxication level of normal usage of (strong) opiates, coke and meth are an activity in themselves. shrooms is highly intoxicating, but then its not physically addictive so it doesnt fall under this classification of a hard drug.
i can see an argument being made for alcohol being a hard drug because it is definately addicting and it can be heavily intoxicating. in fact if our country hadnt been so addicted to the drug socially and physically, prohibition would probably have been a success and it might have been illegal today. who knows. however, the reason i would make and exception for alcohol is that its effects can often make way for increased social interaction which i think is something that is declining in our society as tv watching increases, so because of that, i make leeway for it. this is biased perhaps, but its what i believe for the moment anyway.
i admit that i have not been part of heroin/coke/meth culture so any judgements made could definately be incorrect.
this is not any sort of final judgement or declaration, but rather an exploration and any response is appreciated.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Tao]
    #2024193 -

this is a realy sensitive subject with alot of you, but I'm under the idea that you're better off safe than sorry, so just dont touch anything with a high risk for addiction.

I just dont trust anyone to outsmart a chemical.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2024257 -

Okay.

A few points.

Active chemicals in nature are often evolution's solution to predation. Simply put, many of the chemicals we do for fun were 'designed' as a poison to deter predators from eating the plants they came from. There are many situations where you're better off purifying and isolating that compound is safer than just taking in all of the chemicals present. "natural" does not mean "safe." There are plant sources for amphetamines. Doesn't make plant amphetamine any safer than meth lab amphetamine or Adderall (and yes, I know there is a difference between plant amphetamine and street lab methamphetamine, or the dexamphetamine that is part of the amphetamine coctail in Adderall)

I do entheogens, pot, and beer. Ridilin as prescribed for ADHD. I like stimulants that help me function, any more is too much. This is not to say this is the only rational line, or one that would work for you. I drew my line that way based on what i know to be my limits and my own interest. Meth, coke, heroin, they don't interest me. Maybe if I ever become curious, i'll try them. But under my own conditions, safety wise.

Me, personally, I like to be the one to judge risks. I'll always be more happy to smoke my own acetone-extracted salvia 10x, my own grown shrooms, my own extracted DMT, than to trust it to an unknown party. Were I to know the chemist performing the extractions, then I'd be more happy about it.

Saying that any limits are the byproduct of a drug education forced upon us by the DEA is somewhat incorrect. What, because I don't want to try heroin I'm a slave? It simply doesn't interest me. I'm not particularly afraid of the risks, whatever they may be, I'm not in a hurry to try opiates. I like entheogens, and I've hardly exhausted them as a resource.

There's more to say it, but I don't feel like typing any more.

Just my humble opinion.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Hard Drugs: [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #2024292 -

Use my interpretation of amsterdam harm reduction model if you wish. (It may be bullshit, but well, does it make sense?)

Hard drugs are ones that harm (to self, to society) cannot be easily reduced for by legalization. I.e. less suffering is caused if no one can legally have 'em, and there is some crime caused by people trying to have them anyway than if they are legal and freely available.

As shulgin-avatar man was saying, legal heroin might not save all that much hassle. Addiction is still there, people will still need money to buy smack, and all that shit.

Legal pot, however, saves us all kinds of crime. And more people smoking pot doesn't really do a damn thing to hurt society. Hell, a high Kid Orgo won't fight when provoked. A drunk Kid Orgo will probably try (however successfully) to kick your head in. Marijuana makes him less of a danger to society.





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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Hard Drugs: [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #2024691 -

Where do i draw the line?

On a mirror of course.

Or has someone already had that one?

It does seem a little obvious.


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"Must'nt Grumble!".

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2024772 -

> I know that the cocaine plant be itself is very very toxic and kills in the matter of minutes if ever taken pure

Better double check those references, 'cause I am still alive. Thats right folks, I have chewed on coca leaves (Erythroxylum Coca) from which cocaine is processed, and lived. In fact, the natives of Columbia chew the leaves to relieve the symtpoms of altitude sickness. They sell pound bags of the leaves on the streets. A lot of plant matter goes into just a little bit of cocaine.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2024863 -

Yeah, this thread is so chock-full of crap information that I wouldn't even know where to start the debunking. We might as well compile this and the recent "Drug Myths" thread.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2024962 -

What I have taken:
Alcohol, weed, mushrooms, ephedra, amylnitrites
What I still want to take:
DMT, LSD, MDMA, all other dmt related like mescaline etc.., 2cb and related.
What I'll never ingest:
Speed (although I have snorted it once but it's very sucky and dirty), Coke, Hero?n (duh), most other bad "hard-drugs"..

Hard drugs is a wrong name.. lsd, and mescaline etc.. IMO aren't hard-drugs but soft-drugs.. they just got a bad name.. they aren't even harmful! Nor addictive!
Some hard-drugs deserve the name though..

Edited by JAMsper (10/20/03 09:12 AM)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: JAMsper]
    #2025184 -

oh yeah, and about that experiment where they prescribe heroin in canada--they already did that in the early nineties in liverpool, england. it was a success and i haven't a fucking clue why they disbanded instead of everyone else adopting it. actually im lying, i do know why they abandoned it--dumbass politics based on emotion rather than reason.
oh yeah and when the doctors had it, they could get $1000 worth of heroin for $10 so it actually did solve the whole stealing for smack problem. people who were already addicts were able to go through their working and day-to-day life fine by using the prescription once or twice a week after work.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: JAMsper]
    #2025263 -

Mescaline is not DMT-related. Mescaline is a phenethylamine and as such is related to the 2c-x family. So you'll never ingest speed...but you have. Coke is speed. You say that you won't do heroin, but I'm sure you'll end up doing some form of opiate...then probably still bash heroin.

You give LSD and mescaline the name of "soft-drug" yet you have never taken them. You have also never taken heroin or cocaine, but dub them both "hard-drugs". I fail to see your logic. Death to the D.A.R.E. bear!


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2026155 -

IMO dimitri you sound like such a fucking idiot. i know that all of you guys have such great faith in the drug culture and that no harm can ever come out of it. wouldnt that be a silly idea> LoL.

there's nothing wrong with doing an opiate, but not heroin. so is vicoden the same as heroin? What a stupid fucking statement man, are you tripping or something? Cocaine and heroin ruin lives thats why their called hard.

Quote:
You have also never taken heroin or cocaine, but dub them both "hard-drugs".


Isn't he entitled to think that?


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2026236 -

I have always felt that if a substance is capable of ending your life (literally), it should be treated with much more respect than something that cannot. Not that self-respect and respect for whatever you are taking shouldn't be exercised in every circumstance pertaining to altering one's conciousness.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker] * 1
    #2026307 -

> IMO dimitri you sound like such a fucking idiot

Please, no personal attacks.  Attack the subject, not the person.

> i know that all of you guys have such great faith in the drug culture and that no harm can ever come out of it.

I think this is the main difference between us.  I know that some drugs can be bad for me to take, and I make a personal and responsible choice to educate myself and to refrain from taking those substances.  If somebody else asks, I will point out the dangers.  I am not going to take a stand against somebody else having the freedom to make the same choice that I did.

You, on the other hand, seem to think that I should be protected from myself by making these dangerous substances illegal.  If somebody wants to hang themselves, I am going to be the first person to hand them a rope.  People must be resopnsible for their own actions.  If somebody wants to take heroin, who am I to tell them they cannot?

> Cocaine and heroin ruin lives thats why their called hard.

So do peanuts.  I have seen a person die from a peanut allergy and it wasn't pretty.  Should we outlaw peanuts as well?  What about cars... I have also seen people die after a car wreck, and it wasn't pretty either.  Should we outlaw cars as well.

My point here is that life is hard.  People die.  Some people die horrid deaths.  Some people are saints and others drug addicts and yet others are serial killers or rapists.  Changing one aspect of life, by making certain random substances illegal, does nothing to make life less hard.

If you won't listen to me, then follow God's example.  We could have been created so that we couldn't have picked the apple from the tree.  We could have been created so that we have no choices in life at all... forced to live by Gods will alone.  Would we learn or grow as people if this were the case?  God giveth, man taketh away.  I know which example I will follow...

> Isn't he entitled to think that?

Of course he is, as long as his thoughts don't impede upon my freedom and my freedom doesn't impede upon his thoughts.  Again, I am willing to let you think and do as you wish; why can you not do the same for me?

I have noticed a consitent thread running through your posts... please correct me if I am wrong.  You seem to think that all 'hard' drug users become addicts and that all addicts end up going down the social toilet so to speak.  I can tell you for fact that at least one of the moderators on the shroomery used to be a hard core heroin addict.  He lived on the streets in San Fran, etc.  He now has a family and is putting himself through college.  This is a person that has gone through hell and grown for the experience.  I am sure he wouldn't wish his experience on anybody else, and would skip that part of his life if he could, but he would not be the person he is today without having gone down that road.

Freedom is hard.  I have to be willing to stand quietly and let somebody yell at the top of their lungs that which I have spent a lifetime fighting against.  Likewise, that person must stand quietly and let me yell at the top of my lungs that which they have spent a lifetime fighting against.  People want the easy solution... outlaw it so I can pretend the problem isn't there... rather than working for the hard solution of education, and rehabilitation.

My love is strong.  I would much rather help a drug addict find himself than watch the same man sit in prison rottting away.  Moral obligations are the resonsibility of the family, the church, and the community, NOT the government.  Since yous seem to have all the answers, when was the last time you bought the bum/crackhead on the street lunch?  When was the last time you tried to truely help some of these people in a way other than tossing them in prison?  For me, it was a few hours ago.  Try talking to those that you are typecasting sometime... you might be pleasently surprised at how human they are.

Please don't flame... choose heaven, not hell.  :heart:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2026552 -

That was fucking beatiful. Especially the last two paragraphs. Very, well said.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: one800chiapet]
    #2026967 -

Where does he say you shouldnt be able to take these drugs and that they should not only be illegal but prisonable offenses? There is a lot of between room to wiggle around. they can be legal and he can still think noone should use them (or at least that they should be treated with extreme caution and hopefully avoided) or they can be illegal and the 'punishment' is attending a drug rehabilitation and education center or something.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2027006 -

the free thinker said:
Man fuck Seuss I'm done with this thread - do all the hard drugs you want. They have that name for a reason dumbass. Nicotine and alcohol aren't hard drugs.


shlt, they sure cause a lot more deaths than any others. What is harder than being the leading cause of death in the drug world? if you ask me, thats pretty hard. Tell the person dying of hepatitis, whose can't get a liver transplant because of the rich alcoholics above him in the queue, that alcohol is not a hard drug.


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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Noviseer]
    #2027071 -

From what I've read (very little). You don't get a liver transplant if you are an alchoholic. http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/13891-1.asp
Scroll down to "who may not be given a liver".

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: one800chiapet]
    #2027083 -

Trust me...they may say that but if some moviestar alcoholic needed a liver....Hed get pushed to the front of the list in no time.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #2027149 -

Oh, so I sound like a fucking idiot for stating what I think...but it's perfectly okay for him to speak his mind, but only as long as he agrees with you. You sound like an angry little goth child. Drop the Vicoden and go brew yourself some ayahuasca.

"there's nothing wrong with doing an opiate, but not heroin"

There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol; as long as it's not Everclear.


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In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #2027756 -

OMG I cannot believe you say there is a difference between heroin and another opiate. They all are very much the same when it comes down to it. I know a few ex heroin addicts that become addicted to prescription opiates after they kick heroin.

The only thing that might make it slightly safer is that there are more places than street dealers to get meds from. However, physically they are basically the same. An opiate is an opiate. Your reasonings for things being hard drugs because people call them that is generic.

The current top legal drugs kill more people every year than the illegal ones. The problem lies within it being a crime to use such substances. That is what makes organized crime, street impurities, and suicides. Look at the statistics. I wonder how mnay people actually die from an OD of heroin as opposed to the violence or suicides that could come along with imprisionment withdrawals stealing etc.

I feel that these drugs should be respected not feared. I mean, is heroin was a puzzle, its package would say "For advanced users only".
If we set up a drug license program, much like one gets his or her pilot licence, then maybe that would help regulate substances, as well as educate people about them, making them safer to those who have access to them. Heroin is definatly a drug for more experienced users, due to the potential harm that can come of it, but I have no place to say who should and shouldn't use, even experienced and knowledgeable people can fall into addiction.

Licenses, fair regulations, and harm reduction are the only ways to really deal with drugs and win. I mean, if someone got a ration each month or week or something if they had a license would be ok. And sure the person could take the classes and get the license to sell it to people. But there would be very little value left in street dealing, and I am pretty sure once the easy money from drug dealing is almost taken out as much as possible from the equation, a lot of money grubbing drug pushes will leave the scene and try to find other ways to make money, hopefully more productive ways. I mean there wouldn't be many people who would buy something sold on the street if they could take a class and get more for free, or for a smaller price.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: PDU]
    #2027937 -

I think if I could turn back time and know the things that I know now that I would have tried EVERY drug, but only one time...I would have experienced the drug to the fullest...enjoyed it...and turned and walked away.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2028249 -

Good post caoilte.

We need some badly needed perspective on heroin. 100 years ago mothers would buy heroin over the counter and give it to their children to help them with colic and a cough. It really isn't that monstrous a drug. It is possible for someone to fuck themselves up with it but that's about 99% down to the person and 1% down to the drug.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2029177 -

I draw the line at alcohol, heroin, coke, and speed of any kind.
After living with an alcoholic parent, alcohol scares me to death.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: ChopperDave]
    #2030619 -

draw the line....when you start to bang it in your vein


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I've been first and last
Look at how the time goes past.
But I'm all alone at last.
Rolling home to you.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MilkVein]
    #2030847 -

^
Shooting up is the only thing I will never do.
I know two personal friends (well, one half-family) that have died from it. Not even overdoses... not even that much use... just like blam... fell over dead after a needle or two..

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Psilo707]
    #2030928 -

^^^^ so what caused it?


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Tao]
    #2031052 -

I would agree with suess...

well I do, but I still have the memory of seeing a girl I knew shooting up in the park, then later hearing she O.D.ed, kinda turned me off of drugs of a while. I stated using weed and beers and shrooms again, but still cautiosly. Like you said, we set our own limits, I guess I set mine, but herion still kinda makes me upset... I know its not the actual drug and the problem could have arisen from any number of drugs/behaviors, but the image is burnt into my mind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Tao]
    #2031053 -

People just don't fall over dead, there had to be a reason. You say it was not an overdose? You should ask how they died...

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2031093 -

Im sure injecting drugs intraveinously (sp) is probably the safest way, if proper sterile measures are taken. The only thing safer would be digesting them, like making a marijuana brownie. But I wouldnt go as far as shooting up to get high. I dont like needles and I have a very low tolerance for pain. Thats just me though. Heroin has a stigma because most people who die from vein complications (like in Requiem For A Dream) dont take proper precautions. I know a few guys who do heroin, and they break the entire stereotype. They all get straight A's, never been in trouble with the law, and there parents are very wealthy. After looking at their arms, its nigh impossible to see their 'tracks'. I dont really think theres a general line to when drugs get 'hard'. It all depends on self control and proper precautions. If drugs are to be legalized, you should have to take a test, kinda like a drivers license test. You get a booklet, study it, learn about the drug, its pros and cons, and then take a test. Then you get your license. Kinda stupid, but I think thats the safest way. Information is the greatest weapon.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: ChopperDave]
    #2031172 -

Ha I said something like that above ;D

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: caolite]
    #2031708 -

> If drugs are to be legalized, you should have to take a test, kinda like a drivers license test.

*laugh*  That is a clever idea.  I like it!  I can see it now... I wanna smoke, but I lost my drug licence the other day for getting trashed on PCP and running down the streets nude.  :grin:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2032493 -

hahaha

would anyone ever be able to find their "High Intake Marijuana License"?

Oh.... man..... where the fuck did I leave it?






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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #2033282 -

Hah. I like that license idea.

Seuss-I think hard drugs should be illegal but not an imprisonable offense, maybe you should just get a ticket. If they were legal, I feel many more people would become addicted then those who are currently.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2035500 -

> they were legal, I feel many more people would become addicted then those who are currently.

I don't disagree with you, but shouldn't it be up to responsible adults to decide for themselves? Lets pretend that I am in charge of deciding what drugs are legal and what ones are not. After I decide what you should be putting in your body, then maybe I should choose a few other things as well... this is the danger of giving away our right to choose to other people...



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: MisterKite]
    #2035625 -

I feel many more people would become addicted then those who are currently.

Maybe, maybe not. I guess the point is that as long as you don't have to steal hundreds of pounds a week to buy expensive blackmarket heroin, or damage their health through contaminated blackmarket heroin it really wouldn't matter to society whether you were addicted or not.

Pure heroin is about as benign a drug as you can get. You can inject it into babies. Paracetomol is far more dangerous. Sure it's addictive, but that's only a problem when getting the pure drug is a problem!


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: Seuss]
    #2036464 -

I have resisted doing coke thus far, just because I LOVE snorting adderall and I don't want to open a new can of worms.  I can control myself but I don't want to deal with it right now.  I am not willing to do research chems at this point in time, as its though to know their longterm effects.  Won't use needles, not because of a DARE-imposed stigma, but rather becuase I am a pussy.  :grin: 


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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #2044689 -

You cant really judge who has 'crossed the line' based just on what they've tryed. If you're not suffering of health problems or addiction you can always turn back... If you feel you've crossed the line then turn back, I personally dont think you have but every person has a different line. You also gotta tell us how often you use this stuff.


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Ecstacy Rising - Peter Jennings ABC Special

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DailyPot]
    #2045026 -

You draw your own line, and you know your own limits.

Personally, i have no line...NO line. There is NOTHING that i dont have EXTREME interest in. I dream of IM and IV injections...sometimes just the thought makes me tremble. I dream of delirients such as BZ and Datura. I fantasize about psychosis.

To me...its all part of the ride, that is my life. I cant pass a judgement until i try, and because i know what im doing with reasonable certainty i associate a *safe* risk with my behaviors.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: PDU]
    #2046566 -

I have no health problems nor am I addicted. I don't regularly use Ketamine...probally do a line every 2 weeks. Shrooms I do about twice a month. As far as the xanax goes..I do about 2 mg every few days. The Oxy's I can feel are starting to get a hold of me so I've decided to stay totally clean for a few weeks mainly just to see if I can do it.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #10803391 -

niteowl said:
All man-made recreational drugs are POISON  :thumbdown:

Stick with the ones God made and you will never go wrong  :wink: 


I agree but didn't God make man so everything man makes would be indirectly created by God... Maybe some substances are here to teach us about ourselves... Maybe some people need stronger drugs in their life.. use is considered bad or good by the user... be smart

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: nuttybob]
    #10803413 -

Virtually every man made drug is poisonous to the human body, at relatively small doses.

Some of the natural ones are poisonous, many aren't.

Stick with shrooms and weed and you will never OD.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: niteowl]
    #14545178 -

I'm not sure if it's drawing a line or not, but I personally have a list of drugs I find interesting and want to explore (or am exploring), and a list of drugs I find uninteresting/dangerous.

as in cannabis, salvia, lsd, mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca and the likes

vs coke, speed, heroin, popper, and the likes

the only drug I use and regret is tobacco because I'm not in control, and I think moderation is the key for coffee and alcohol (1 cup of coffee in the morning and not every day, and occasional drinks of beer/wine for enjoyment, although I hate being drunk, and everytime I give getting a drunk a chance it dissapoints me)

the only drugs I can't seem to decide if I want to try or not are MDMA and 2CB

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: sanx]
    #14545347 -

Well I read the first two pages, skimmed through the rest, I didn't see anyone with actual IV experience and withdrawl experience. So here goes, I'd say when you attach certain values to them that's what you get. I was well versed in psychedelics when I started using opiates, maybe that helped expand my view.  I did oxy 40s and 80s for well over 6 months, everyday, up to hundreds of mg's a day. And then I stopped.. it feels like shit, of course. I wanted to stop though, so I did. I knew I was addicted and at some point would have to dry out. I do what I want, not what the drugs want. Some, if not most, cannot do that; I recognize this. I also, went on to IV Dilaudid's multiple times daily for awhile. Went through more withdrawls, but I accepted the fact that every action has a reaction. If I was going to be high for months I would come down and crash at some point. I knew what I was doing, and did what I wanted, in every sense. I wanted to bang opiates, I did. I wanted to stop, I did. It's not that big of a deal. Know yourself, that's all I can say. Someone else cannot tell you your own limits. I wanted to experience everything life has to offer, and I plan on doing just that.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: sanx]
    #14545577 -

sanx said:
I'm not sure if it's drawing a line or not, but I personally have a list of drugs I find interesting and want to explore (or am exploring), and a list of drugs I find uninteresting/dangerous.

as in cannabis, salvia, lsd, mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca and the likes

vs coke, speed, heroin, popper, and the likes

the only drug I use and regret is tobacco because I'm not in control, and I think moderation is the key for coffee and alcohol (1 cup of coffee in the morning and not every day, and occasional drinks of beer/wine for enjoyment, although I hate being drunk, and everytime I give getting a drunk a chance it dissapoints me)

the only drugs I can't seem to decide if I want to try or not are MDMA and 2CB


But you can be in control of tobacco, if you choose to.

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DeliriumTrigger]
    #14546174 -

I try to stay away from things that are physically addicting and potentially devastating to life.  No interest in either meth or heroin, personally.


--------------------
:mushroom2: Tips for a good trip :mushroom2:


drink me

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: mundane]
    #14546209 -

Honestly, I'm not interested in anything but psychedelics, IDK if you'd consider that drawing a line. (I consider marijuana a psychedelic, too.)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: DeliriumTrigger]
    #14546714 -

Honestly, I've done it all in the world of drugs.  I am not bragging at ALL, trust me.  I've paid very dearly for many of my mistakes.  Started out as your typical "druggie", a pot smoking, mushroom eating teen in highschool, elevated to a binge drinking college kid, started using cocaine, MDMA, amphetamines etc.  This is where shit started going bad for me.  It didn't happen overnight, it took about a year for me to really go downhill. 

Eventually I had little interest in pot and psychedelics.  I had developed new habits and I had become a frequent cocaine user as well as a definite alcoholic.

Eventually I became addicted to IV heroin, and I've done everything in between. 

I wish I had stuck to pot and psychedelics.  I know my life is the sum of my experiences, so what I've done has shaped me into who I am today.  I don't have any regrets.  But I'm sure things would have been a LOT easier for me had I stayed away from all that shit. 

For someone like me (addictive personality) it's nowhere close to worth it.

The wisest words I can offer are to know yourself.  Sometimes knowing yourself isn't even enough.  An addict won't be able to stop without consequences - sometimes severe ones.

Alcohol is the worst thing I could possibly do.  Once I start drinking, all bets are off.  I'll be out looking for coke, doing all sorts of shit I would never ever do while sober.  It really scared me to death knowing how I get after I've got some firewater in me, it changes my ENTIRE personality. 

I make absurd, tragic, self destructive decisions while under the influence of alcohol.  I can't safely use alcohol in any way, not ever.

I use weed and psychedelics now and nothing else... the true medicines :sun:


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: the free thinker]
    #14546789 -

I don't get it. If you read about a drug, and it's known to have a very small instance of adverse effects & addiction potential, why put some weight on your conscience for wanting to have a bit of fun and try new things?

Thinking that you're starting to become a loser because the # of drugs you've tried is getting higher doesn't make sense to me.

I'm lucky though. I honestly think I'm genetically predisposed to despise cocaine, opiates, & alcohol, the drugs most people seem to have addiction problems with. It's honestly more of a problem for me to have a lb of mushrooms around than a lb of coke, I'd be more tempted to eat more and more mushrooms every day.


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Edited by CMACD (06/01/11 08:36 PM)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #14547136 -

I don't wan to inject anything into myself.  I feel like fucking with a needle is too much trouble and there's not a drug I want to try where IV injection is the best method.  So to cross the line with a needle would be crossing another line at the same time in that I would be doing a drug I don't care to try.

I stay away from the classic "hard drugs" due to their addiction potential COUPLED WITH the fact that I may like one of them too much and go too far with it.  I generally don't drink much and I don't smoke cigarettes at all.  Pretty much only Psychedelics(including MDMA/pot) with the rare Tramadol.  Actually I used to eat a lot of Tramadol back in the day but I've only done it maybe 2-3 times in the past year and a half.

Edited by abltsandwich (06/01/11 06:19 PM)

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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: abltsandwich]
    #14547233 -

abltsandwich said:
I don't wan to inject anything into myself.  I feel like fucking with a needle is too much trouble and there's not a drug I want to try where IV injection is the best method.  So to cross the line with a needle would be crossing another line at the same time in that I would be doing a drug I don't care to try.



IV injection is really the best method for every drug ever since there is no waiting for a come up... :evil2:

I'd never inject either though. Because I'm a pussy.


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Re: Where to draw the line---in the world of drugs? [Re: orizon]
    #14547318 -

I think you may be going down a bad road i have been doing similar things as far breaking my boundaries so what i decided to do was don't do anything that has a high potential to harm my body, mind, or life( my biggest no no's are alcohol, tobacco, amphetamines, PCP, coke, heroin, any stimulant i haven't already mentioned, and shrooms but only because i don't trust myself to get psychedelics and not poisonous ones I'm sure I'd be fine with the right ones though). i know most people would say all drugs can do that but imo as long as you control it iow you don't feel any pressure to take the drug then its fine


--------------------


peace

love

weed

Edited by rooster22 (06/01/11 06:54 PM)

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