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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921659 -

OneLessForeskin said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational conversation here and you're jumping to extremes, and also throwing ridiculous assumptions out.

No, but some rapists truly don't see what they are doing as "bad." So if two conscious human beings can have two completely different perceptions about the validity of a certain course of action, what makes either one right? Majority rules? Just something worth thinking about, and it's something that moral high-horse drug perceptions always gets me thinking about.


So basically, moral relativism? I agree with you here, although I still have my own ideas about my own morality, I recognize that nobody else's morality is innately better or worse than mine.


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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921667 -

whose right?


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: g00ru]
    #7921681 -

guruu said:
OneLessForeskin said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational conversation here and you're jumping to extremes, and also throwing ridiculous assumptions out.

No, but some rapists truly don't see what they are doing as "bad." So if two conscious human beings can have two completely different perceptions about the validity of a certain course of action, what makes either one right? Majority rules? Just something worth thinking about, and it's something that moral high-horse drug perceptions always gets me thinking about.


So basically, moral relativism? I agree with you here, although I still have my own ideas about my own morality, I recognize that nobody else's morality is innately better or worse than mine.


That's all I'm saying.

It's easy to watch the cocaine user and say, "Ha! My drugs are so much 'better' than his are."

Doesn't make you right though. That's a moral judgment you keep to yourself and move through the world with. But pushing it on people, running around saying "good drugs" and "bad drugs" - it's just counterproductive. There are safe and responsible ways to do every drug.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7921687 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
whose right?


Who's*

Great question. Many would say those with power and might are the ones who are right. But that's just a product of the situation.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7921763 -

lol whoops, caught me. yeah i'll agree it is subjective, but i'll at least classify people as good, bad, and neutral.

ps. i didn't say "good" drugs "bad" drugs. i said good/responsible users and abusers.

pps. i would classify people who spread negativity as "bad", love as "good" and both in equal amounts as neutral. i'd say that can be viewed objectively.


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Everybody's a ninja...

Edited by SleepyF0x (01/23/08 10:56 PM)

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7921832 -

I'd say nothing is inherently bad or good. It's all relative. For one thing to be good, you must compare it to something else that is bad, and it's entirely dependent on your point of view in determining if something is bad. To a rapist rape might not be bad, does that make it good? I'd say no more so than the majority of people saying rape is bad. Just because someone is in the majority it doesn't make it the 'right' opinion. It just makes it the opinion that the majority of people have. That is all.

I don't think rape is good, (I in fact think it's one of the most cruel things that you can do to someone), I'm just trying to prove a point.

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: krypto2000]
    #7921847 -

well, if their definition of bad is good, then yeah that'll make sense. since they are doing bad, they are bad. i don't believe if one thinks it's good to harm someone, that its good.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7921968 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
pps. i would classify people who spread negativity as "bad", love as "good" and both in equal amounts as neutral. i'd say that can be viewed objectively.


That can't be viewed objectively at all.

What you think of as "negativity" might not be what I think of as negativity. You might think posting scat porn in OTD is negative. I think it's mildly hilarious.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7922194 -

there are levels of negativity, negativity is anything that brings harm to someone, evil.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922204 -

KrishnaDreamer said:
there are levels of negativity, negativity is anything that brings harm to someone, evil.


Sorry but you still don't seem to understand. Harm is in the eye of the beholder, and there are many levels and types of harm.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7922216 -

im pretty sure the concept of harming is pretty universal.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922270 -

Action does not necessarily just produce harm. You can't, at all, hope to never harm anyone. I broke up with my girlfriend of four and a half years. Did I harm her? Absolutely. She is still hurt. I would almost go so far as to say shattered. But I did what I had to do, and I think less of how I harmed her and more of how I freed myself to move on with my life. So was breaking up with her evil because it harmed her? You're walking a tight rope when you say that harming people is evil.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922277 -

but someone might not consider a certain activity/drug harmful whereas you might.

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922282 -

Negativity may be something that brings harm to someone, but that doesn't make the negative action evil. You get paid at your job. That is negative to your employer. Is it evil for you to get paid? No. At least not from my moral perspective, maybe your employer thinks otherwise :wink:

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922362 -

ok maybe doing harm doesn't incur evil, but the point is still valid that harmful actions bring negativity.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922388 -

tsquad said:
Negativity may be something that brings harm to someone, but that doesn't make the negative action evil. You get paid at your job. That is negative to your employer. Is it evil for you to get paid? No. At least not from my moral perspective, maybe your employer thinks otherwise :wink:


actually its neutral. the amount paid is relative to the work.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922403 -

Well, that is the whole thing...you don't think that you getting paid is harmful. To the employer, it is. To you it is not negative, to them, it is. I think that's the point Foreskin's (haha) trying to make. It's not wrong for you to think what you think, or hold your views on harmful actions or negativity, but those views are subjective and may vary from person to person. There is no universal good or bad action.

edit: Good point. Perhaps a poor example on my part, but I think you get what I'm saying

Edited by tsquad (01/24/08 12:49 AM)

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922485 -

This alone, will change your entire outlook on people; or at least it did for me. I hate trying to explain it to someone that just cant understand it. But I always want to try because i know how it made me feel about the world.

Edited by fuckusernames (01/24/08 01:03 AM)

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: tsquad]
    #7922513 -

the universal good action - love
the universal bad action - hate

for foreskin - i can't really judge that particular action because i don't know the circumstances, but yes, i would say that there was some element of evil in that.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: there ARE good drugs [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #7922662 -

define love and then define hate.

you can't do it in terms that are objective because they don't really exist, at least not in the way you seem to
think they do.

Plus they are not really opposites.

I would say that connectedness and separation are the universal feelings that you are looking for. There is no
way to prove that however.


If you have ever tripped hard with someone else you probably know something about them, but it's hard to say they
are truly universal although I think they may be the only universal human experiences, but you just have to trust
that thats true since there is no way to really even define these experiences either. In English anyway.

Love is something else even though it is tied closely with connectedness it's an emotion and therefore subjective,
not an experience which is at the most basic of levels (connected vs. separated) objective human experience.

There are lots of gray areas in there, and the language we are using is not the best. I could throw out the word
qualia, in order to replace the word experience since it isn't a good word and it causes confusion.


I agree with most of what people are saying though, although I am obviously not in line with the whole existential bit.
I think that seeing as we are all humans there are universal experiences (qualia as defined as the actual experience and
not the experience of that experience, see why experience is a bad word) that we can have that are objective simply because
they are actually universal.

Some people experience connectedness as god, others and "oneness" others as jesus, it's all the same feeling though.
Obviously, again this is just a theory although I think it is correct you just have to trust that everyone is having the same
experience since there is no way to ever know for sure, but I think they are.

I would say the oneness (seeing as I am calling this other thing connectedness) thing is probably the best description although
if you have never felt it you don't get it. Basically it's a religious experience at the most primal level one that all reli-
gious experiences are built upon, but in your brain, your culture and personal history, beliefs and memories (past exper-
iences of qualia) all come together (along with your current set of input signals) to create the context of the experience.


It's more complicated than that, but the point is that there are
no good drugs and there are no bad drugs, or people, there are
only drugs and people and even that is debatable. :P

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