jonathan_206 said:

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"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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And what makes us stay there?
I suspect that those who do, have developed some sort of fetish which is about self pity and mental masturbation.
It's no more different than those children who accept to submit to their idiotic and manic parents, just because "they gave them life".
It's because of comments like the one you just made, that people start to hate religion.
Live ans let live. Those who feel the urge to kiss authority asses are free do so, as long as they keep it quiet and don't impose their "truth" on others.

jonathan_206 said:

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"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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And what makes us stay there?

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You're supposed to.

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I'm not "supposed" to do anything. Never had never will.
It feels damn good.

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Not a very mature comment, and a very wrong one at that. It's true that I look for mercy from God, but aside from that, I have no sexual fetish involving self pity, and I don't see any substatiation in that comment.Self pity by the way, is not necessarily wrong. What do you mean "mental masturbation"?

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The term "fetish" doesn't refer only to sexuality.
Let's take a look, shall we?

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fet·ish      /ˈfɛtɪʃ, ˈfitɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fet-ish, fee-tish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

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I hope this got you out of the dark.
Mental masturbation as in finding pleasure and comfort in thinking that you must obey.
This is a commonly spread disease in our society and it's been like that for a very long while.
It's when all your actions become excusable and free of responsibility because you're only doing what you "should". I used to do that a lot so I know very well what I'm talking about. Escapism results from fear towards taking your life in your own hands and become responsible. And we usually run away from that because we're living in a culture which is inclined towards punishing.
What we fail to see is that we can always refuse to get punished.

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People should obey their parents because God told them to. If it wasn't for God's authority and standard of morality we would have no reason to be obligated morally to obey our parents.

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What you said, with other words: we should obey our parents because we should. If we shouldn't then we wouldn't.
I hope you realize the flaws in your logic.

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But obeying your parents is a good thing.

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And how's that a good thing?
There are parents which tell their children to become doctors when they really want to become artists. Why should those children listen to their parents? How does it all make sense?
There are fathers which sexually abuse their daughters. Should they submit?
The fact that a child is a result of their parents having sex and their mother deciding not to to abort them does not mean that the child MUST do what their parents tell them.

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Doesn't it seem odd that you have so much hatred for authority, except your own of course.

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No it doesn't seem "odd".
What exactly do you mean by that statement?
I don't "hate" authority, I simply disagree with it and take the proper actions on defending myself against it.
Also I don't impose my "authority" upon others.
Please make this discussion less ambiguous.

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I don't have to keep quiet, and expressing my views and even trying to save others is not imposing my views on others.

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jonathan_206 said:

The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.

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It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.

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But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.

Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.

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This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it.

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A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. That it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

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How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret  the law, and judge others.

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Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

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Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter".

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    jonathan_206 said:
    The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.

fireworks:

Trying to justify that the Bible's objective meaning is easily interpreted and evident by asserting that it is just like any other book is misleading and not true.

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Fact is, the Bible is not just like any other book. The Bible's unique history belies the notion of it being like any other book, where one author sits down and writes an organized, thoughtful conveyance of intended meaning.

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jonathan_206:

    It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.

fireworks:

What is contained within The Bible is within a wide range of interpretation, not to mention numerous translations over thousands of years. If the doctrines within it are not ambigious, it, quite likely, has less to do with original expression, and moreso with how individuals have expressed what was once written.

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Of course, what is in question is the ideas accessible right now, as the question as to what was once intended, or whether or not the writings are "the word of g*d", are entirely unanswerable questions.

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e point to be made, clearly, is that, within the present form of the writings, there is still a wide range of potential interpretation - there is no clear, objective meaning that is being conveyed, especially when we are referring to an overall, concise, all-inclusive "doctrine".

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jonathan_206

    But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.



    Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.


fireworks:

This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it.

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That's remarkable to me, because I think for anyone who has studied scripture intently and learned about the story of the bible, it is that It is singular in God's purpose of salvation of humanity from sin and death, pointing forward to Jesus Christ. Everything in the bible is directly or indirectly related with God's plan of salvation for humanity.



   

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jonathan_206

    A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. Thats it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

fireworks:

This is another point that I am clearly critical of. There is no "real" Christian. The identity of being a Christian is one that each individual applies to themselves or others for their own reasons, associating with that identity their own meaning. It means something different to everyone, and there clearly cannot be an objective meaning. The idea of how one obeys Christ and a conception of a doctrine is different for everyone.

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There is only you, and the ideas that you choose to live in relation to, your path. There is no "real Christian"; there is no "Christian". These are merely abstract terms that could never define the totality and culmination of one's own existance, and applying them to our own nature serves no beneficial end.

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jonathan_206:

    How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret the law, and judge others.

fireworks:

People make decisions, whether or not they choose to cast a vote. Voting is no different than any other action one takes that affects the course of one's life. The fact that individuals make decisions cannot be denied. Everyone makes judgement - the simple fact that you personally make assertions regarding whether or not an individual is a "real Christian" demonstrates this very clearly.

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    jonathan_206Z:

    Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

fireworks:

Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter".

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I wouldn't trade them for anything.

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Not even this very rare 1918 Donnelly card?

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jonathan:

People should obey their parents because God told them to.

icelander:

Especially parents who rape beat and torture their children. Your thinking is so black and white it makes me chuckle.

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What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?

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