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Offlinenetrunner
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 6
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Alcohol Extraction Revisited
    #750952 - 07/16/02 01:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Previous posts regarding pure ethanol extraction of psilocybin seem rather doubtful of its effectiveness, so I'd like to report the results of my little experiment.

8 ounces of bone-dry P. cubensis were powdered briefly in a mini food processor in small batches and poured into a gallon glass apple juice jug.

1750 ml of 195 proof (95%) ethanol were added, forming roughly equal sized layers of ethanol and mushroom slurry upon settling. Probably overkill, but I wanted to be sure.

This was soaked for 3 days, with occassional shaking of the jug to stir things up. By day three, an abundance of unkown crystals were observed growing on the glass in the ethanol layer. This was noted as a Good Sign.

The slurry was then pre-filtered through stainless steel sieves, jelly bags and finally pollen-dust masks to produce an amber colored liquid similar to tequila, but with a very suspicious odor.

80 proof (40%) vodka was then added to the glass jug to dissolve the adhering crystals. They dissolved immediately and the vodka was added to the liquid.

Suspicious that more crystals were probably in the filtered sludge, it was briefly soaked for about 30 minutes in just enough vodka to make a slurry, filtered and added to the liquid. A final brief soaking of the sludge with distilled water was also filtered and added to the liquid.

Final yield was 2000 ml of amber-liquid with an estimated 85% ethanol concentration after adding vodka and distilled water. Despite its color, this liquid was dubbed "Blue Juice." The sludge was covered and saved in the fridge--just in case. Assuming complete extraction, 9 ml of liquid should equal 1 gram of dried mushrooms.

The day came for testing. 6 contestants lined up to receive their doses. 5 of the contestants settled on 45 ml (5 grams), while one aimed a little higher at 60 ml (6.7 g). The alcohol was mixed in the beverage of choice, ranging from carrot juice (which apparently masked the flavor well) to Arizona Green Tea, and quickly quaffed.

My God. I have never been so high on shrooms in my life. Absorption was immediate, despite having eaten beforehand, with strong effects being felt within 10 minutes. We peaked within 30-45 minutes, and for some, the effects lasted 7 hours. There were no body side effects, like some feel when eating the whole dried shrooms (upset stomach, etc). It was the smoothest, cleanest, strongest ride ever.

Subsequent testing prove that as little as 10 ml provides a nice kick in the ass, with 15-20 ml providing a "manageable" dose.

The sludge was later also tested for any residual actives. A tea was made with 10 heaping spoonfuls of the stuff, and the nasty stuff was gagged down in increments over a period of 2 hours. Slight tingly sensation was felt along with "gut-rot" upset stomach. Not recommended. Ugh.

Conclusions: Ethanol extraction does work, but 10-15% water probably aids in keeping the alkaloids in solution.

Questions: What is the minimum % ethanol to use to ensure adequate preservation and storage? Might the extraction be just as effective with tequila or vodka (40%)? Would shelf-life noticably improve with higher concentrations of ethanol? What is the expected shelf life in ethanol? And how might this work with fresh mushrooms?

It has been at least two weeks since extraction and the blue juice is just as effective as ever. I keep it stored in the freezer. Shelf-life might not be a question as fast as the stuff is going, though!

Why did I bother trying this in the first place? Several reasons: 1) My wrapped dessicant (CaCl) melted all over my shrooms while storing them in ziplocks. Apparently moisture was drawn through the bags. Dumb on my part. 2) Concealment--who would guess what's really in that tequila bottle? 3) Shelf life? Improved or not? Time will tell, but high enough concentrations of ethanol should halt all enzymatic activity and degradation, right??

Comments are welcome...



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OfflineDinoMyc
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Registered: 11/14/99
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Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: netrunner]
    #751103 - 07/16/02 03:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for posting your results.
Ethanol is not as good of a solvent as Methanol, however I STRONGLY advise against the use of Methanol, for what should be obvious reasons (death, blindness, generally toxic nature..). Psilocybin is water soluble, although I am unsure as to what the critical saturation point is.

I would advise against fresh mushrooms simply due to the vast volume necessary and possible problems with rupturing the cell walls: over 2 kilograms! Given your recipe; and although this is different from plant extraction, it is still extraction from a cell.
Not to mention that you lose very little in drying.

To those who did not notice I would like to point out the huge amount used, which may well be fine for many people, but is still an issue. 216 grams is a lot of raw material.

Yes, most regular zip lock bags do allow for some gas/water exchange, which is why you cannot store a cigar for a long period in such bags. It is unfortunate you learned the hard way. Don?t feel bad about it, I have done equally stupid with zip locks as recently as today. Apparently they cannot stand up open on their own (I have no idea what I was thinking).. spent marinade all over the counter..

Shelf life very well may increase, as a sealed bottle with such a high alcohol content should reduce the exposure to air.
I am unsure as to what the effect of freezing will have, it could cause some changes, although this is probably a piddling concern.

I do have a slight issue with the existence of the alcohol in the mixture, although a single shot is unlikely to make much of an impact. I personally feel that mixture of mushrooms and alcohol is ill advised, and many others feel the same way (check the report in ER from last year which discussed this very issue). I do like the reduced legal danger, although I have found that cops are generally ignorant to ?food items? effects. Also, I strongly advise fasting for an acceptable period beforehand, although not necessarily throughout the entire experience.

I will repeat your recipe in a slightly more condensed form for the ease of those who would like to replicate your experiment:

1 handle of grain alcohol (everclear, clear springs, or equivalent)
8 ounces of dried powdered mushrooms
1/3 fifth of vodka

Soak mushrooms in grain for 3 days, filter in standard manner.
Add vodka to soaking container and dissolve any remaining crystals, also so do with bulk material left over from filtering.
Filter vodka + ?sludge? mix and add to initial liquid.
Drink with caution.

I would like to offer a slightly modified version for anyone who would like to try, keep in mind this is wholly theoretical:
1 handle of grain alcohol (everclear, clear springs, or equivalent)
X grams of dried powdered mushrooms
1/2 gallon distilled or deionized water pre boiled and cooled in a closed container
Soak in 1/2 the handle of ethanol + 1 liter of water
filter, reserve liquid and return bulk matter to soaking container
Repeat initial soak with fresh liquid
Repeat filtration, discard bulk matter

I would like to see the effect of a low heat ?boil? to remove the alcohol, around 80degC, as the melting point of psilocybin and psilocin are well above this temp. Oxidation may be a concern.

It is likely that these extractions are extremely wasteful compared to standard proper ingestion, but the convenience down the line may well be worth it.

Thanks again for posting.



--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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InvisibleBuzzDoctor
Runs withscissors
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Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 948
Loc: Atlantis
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: DinoMyc]
    #751361 - 07/16/02 05:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would also suggest not just leaving the bottle lying around even tho it may look like an innocent 'tequila bottle'. Imagine someone coming in and mixing themselves a strong drink, say several shots of your blue juice? That would be extremely touchy for even veteran shroomers, let alone a newbie.

Buzz


--------------------
Is the glass half-full or half-empty? I say it is both.


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Invisiblemycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: netrunner]
    #752254 - 07/17/02 12:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder if the ethanolic juice can be used as starting material for 'humito', i.e. the mushroom smoking mixture of Carlos Castaneda.

Lemme explain.

In his book The Teachings of Don Juan (1968), Castaneda mentions about the posibility to trip of smoked Psilocybe mexicana. Since then, several experts (Weston La Barre, Jonathan Ott) said that Castaneda is a fake. And many bioassays have shown that it is not effective to smoke psilocybian mushrooms.

But as we all know (or should know), psilocin and psilocybin exist in the mushrooms in their natural form, as salt. Salts typically have a high boiling point. Psilocin and psilocybin salt burn/char/decompose before they evaporate. So direct smoking has no effect.

But in Castaneda's book the mushrooms are prepared with alkaline ashes, which converts the alkaloids into their free bases. And psilocin freebase has a mp roughly equal to that of water and a bp near to 200 centigrade (if my info is correct). That is just twenty centigrade above the bp of the most popular smokable cannabinacea plant based oils

Sooo I was thinking: suppose that you have an ethanolic psiloc(yb)in extract of one dose, then evaporate it down (without heat - use a petri dish or watch glass and a fan) and add a few drops of household ammonia just prior to the test.

Now the mushroom alkaloids become freebases. Unfortunately psilocin freebase is reported to be *very* unstable, this is the main reason that the ammonia should be added as late as possible.

Anyway, now you have a ml or so of alkaloid loaded ammoniacal mushroom liquor. Put it on a sheet of tinfoil (use an eye dropper). Take a soda bottle, cut off the bottom and put the bottle on top of the foil (with the alkaloid drop in the middle). Stick/tighten the foil with a rubber band to the bottle. Keep a flame right under the foil, boil the liquor, suck up the vapor and report to this forum.

Yachaj


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OfflineOrchidman
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Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Toronto
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: mycophreak]
    #752348 - 07/17/02 01:58 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mycophreak,
I do understand chemistry and I do believe you've got it. Imagine-----freebasing psilocybin. Perhaps you could simply put some onto a joint and have the strongest smoke in town. Maybe you could put the original extraction on a joint and the ashes from the Marijuana would melt into it and free base it as the joint burned. I like the pop bottle idea though. You would be instantly in Never Never Land. Just make sure you don't pass out and set the place on fire. Use a straw to suck the gasses as this will alow the pressure to equalize and not tear the foil.


--------------------
I've been having psilly dreams lately


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Offlineaural
Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/04/00
Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: mycophreak]
    #752518 - 07/17/02 06:36 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hate to break it to you,but the Carlos Castenada books are widely recognized as fiction these days.It's as pointless trying to duplicate something from his books as it is to try to copy a light sabre from Star Wars


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Offlinenetrunner
Stranger
Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 6
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: BuzzDoctor]
    #752684 - 07/17/02 08:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, my solution to avoid any accidental drinking of said blue juice was to add a nice fatty fat dried shroom to the bottle, which now floats ominously as a warning to all who dare, kinda like the gusano worm in mescal.

Besides that, the taste and smell is pretty strongly unlike any tequila or mescal I've ever had!

I've thought of getting a bunch of those little plastic liquor bottles like they serve on airlines and mix up some single doses, with a little baby shroom floating in each one.



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Anonymous

Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: DinoMyc]
    #753257 - 07/17/02 12:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Offlinetrainboy55
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Registered: 05/22/02
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Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: netrunner]
    #757886 - 07/19/02 12:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

A friend of mine tried a similar alcohol extraction of mycelium (not fruitbodies), and was met with less than positive results.

PF cakes were baked dry at 170 degrees and crumbled into a jar of methanol. soaked for three days and strained with vacuum pump. resulting liquid was filtered through again and final liquid product was evaporated to a brown, crystally sludge.

taste tests of the sludge pointed to an absence of psilocybin.

similar experiment conducted with newer mycelium on birdseed but was met with similar, unexciting results.


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Invisiblemycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: trainboy55]
    #757953 - 07/19/02 02:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Aural, I know that the story line of Castaneda is a fake. But the freebase story of psilocin isn't. An article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences by John F. Casale (no 30, 1985, p. 247-250) describes the acid/base extraction of psilocin from cubensis mushrooms with acetic acid, followed by basification and isolation of psilocin freebase with a (lot of) nonpolar solvent. The bulk of the article is quoted in a new book, titled Trout's Notes on Some Symple Tryptamines (which IMHO belongs in the Shroomery bookstore because it contains the most extensive literature and data list on botanical psychoactive tryptamines ever published - at least as extensive as PIHKAL, see www.troutsnotes.com or http://trout.yage.net/sc/fsx7.html - e-mail books@troutsnotes.com).

The water/alcohol extraction of mushrooms, followed by basification was already performed by Hofmann in the nineteen fifties. The alkaloids are less purified in this way but you do no need chloroform or ether as in Casales method.

A couple of months ago I have read a report of somebody who vaporised 4-acetoxy-N,N-di-isopropyltryptamin freebse (a close relative to psilocin) and got very colorful effects

Trainboy55, extracting cakes is not useful because in cubensis the alkaloids are only present after pinning. See the Forensic Sciences article at the fanaticus site (I believe there was a pdf copy of the article available at the Shroomery too but I can no find it).

BTW I think that the Journal of Forensic Sciences is FBI's best magazine FBI!

Yachaj


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Offlineaural
Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/04/00
Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: mycophreak]
    #758180 - 07/19/02 06:29 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good post.I also recently read those reports of the similarity between 4AcDIPT and nnDMT.Very interesting.

Thanks for the link to Trout's Notes-I'll check that out


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OfflineLights
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Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 47
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Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: aural]
    #758502 - 07/19/02 08:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

For a cleaner extraction first wash the dried shrooms with Chloroform. And acetone. Neither will dissolve the psilocin and will afford a much cleaner end product. It will rid all of the heavier oils. MethyleneChloride will also help. It is best to do all extraction work in the presence of an inert gas to avoid rapid oxidation of the active compounds. Notice how a heavily bruised shroom will lose much of it's potency. That's cause it all got oxiduised. For the final redidue it is probably best to store it dissolved in alcohol. After removing the final MeOH under vac in an inert atmosphere, calculate how many doses you should have and add 1ml Of ethanol for every 20 doses5 ml + 100 sweetbreath drops.
For an OTC synth of Chloroform Http://www.rhodium.ws


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: trainboy55]
    #759425 - 07/19/02 04:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"A friend of mine tried a similar alcohol extraction of mycelium (not fruitbodies), and was met with less than positive results.

PF cakes were baked dry at 170 degrees and crumbled into a jar of methanol. soaked for three days and strained with vacuum pump. resulting liquid was filtered through again and final liquid product was evaporated to a brown, crystally sludge.

taste tests of the sludge pointed to an absence of psilocybin.

similar experiment conducted with newer mycelium on birdseed but was met with similar, unexciting results. "
well between baking and useing cakes, its no wonder you had little to speak for at the end..
:P
---
Lights: all of the solvents you mentioned are extremely dangerous and should only be used by trained professionals or people who don't mind the rather serious side effects should they err.
There are many other drying methods which will not effect the potency, and even if you lose a small amount, its better than gaining a small amount of the solvent in the final product..
I really do not want to hear about someone who decided to try an essentially unnecessary extraction who ends up with serious problems because of chloroform or dichloromethane..
Yes, non-polar solvents are helpful for many extractions, but in the case of mushrooms I do not think it is as necessary as with other extractions where there is a real concern over rather unplesant chems along with the desired ones..


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Invisiblemycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: DinoMyc]
    #760677 - 07/20/02 01:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder why Lights even wants to clean up the alkaloids? The aim is to get an oral dose (water soluble psilly salt, simple water/alcohol extraction is sufficient) or to get a vaporisable dose (add a drop of ammonia just before all the water/alcohol mixture is evaporated). Why do you want pure crystals if you do no even have a mg scale?

For the same reason I do not understand why people want to use methanol. It is true that psilocybin dissolves much better in methanol and psilocin in ethanol. Useful knowledge if you want toget pure crystals (read American patent 3183172 if you want to do that - but be warned that you need a whole lot more equipment&solvents to get yer final product - Albert Hofmann once wrote that it is easier to synthsize psilocybin than to extract&purify it!). But psilocybin dissolves pretty well in water. So a mixture of water&ethanol, 140 proof or 70 percent, is excellent to extract both desired alkaloids. This mixture has often been used as eluent mixture in TLC analysis of psilocybian mushrooms by the researcher Tjakko Stijve. An overnight soaking period in 140 proof alcohol is sufficient

About the chloroform I agree with Dinomyc. You do no need it if you do not need to get pure crystals. One of the wonderful qualities of our most wanted mushroom alkaloids is that they do not dissolve in acetone. But almost anything else in the mushrooms, especially fats&oils and undesired alkaloids do. So an acetone soaking of the mushroom powder prior to the ethanol soaking is fine. But again the question is if you need to clean up the oils if all what you want is making Humito, i.e. convert the extracted mushroom alkaloid salts into their freebases?

Perhaps that it is really that simple: soak pulverized mushrooms in 140 proof alcohol, evaporate without heat, add a drop of ammonia when the liquid is almost evaporated and vaporize. If it works then the biggest mystery will be why there are no bioassays or report about this technique anywhere on the Net.

I do not see the use of baking a mushroom cake at all. Cubensis cakes do contain only a tiny amount of alkaloids. Baking helps to destroy even these traces. Extracting cakes in alcohol will produce a pretty dirty end product - rice is full of alcohol soluble undesired murky stuff. It is a big difference to extract only the biomass or also the substrate!!!

Yachaj


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OfflineLights
Mad scientistextrodionar~
Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Aside the rectum
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: mycophreak]
    #761183 - 07/20/02 08:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I tis just a goal of mine to isolate pure psilocin. Once fruits are had then the work can begin. And i do have a miligram scale.
Build your own scale
www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/equipment/scale.html


Edited by Lights (07/20/02 08:04 AM)


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: Lights]
    #761340 - 07/20/02 08:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It is not a bad goal for personal satisfaction, not at all.
But why not synth. it?
When you do attempt this extraction, please be exceptionally careful with those solvents.


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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OfflineLights
Mad scientistextrodionar~
Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Aside the rectum
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: DinoMyc]
    #762041 - 07/20/02 01:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The purcursors to synth it are not available at this point.


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Offlinesalviapsilo
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 26
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Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: Lights]
    #763114 - 07/20/02 09:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I dont want to say much but i will says this :LEARN HOW TO EXTRACT WITH BUTANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PM ME FOR TECHNIQUE.


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OfflineFood
---Beast---

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 390
Loc: Siberia
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: netrunner]
    #763608 - 07/21/02 01:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

N I C E O N E !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Thanks for that


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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Invisiblemycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
Re: Alcohol Extraction Revisited [Re: salviapsilo]
    #763677 - 07/21/02 02:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Psilocin nor psilocybin can be extracted with butane.

Yachaj


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