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Attacking People to Find Truth
    #7223263 -

When someone shares an idea I often see others attack their ideas and then attack the person presenting the idea. This is usually justified by the attacker as trying to get to the truth, or to expose a fraud, or to enlighten others. It seems to me that this is an inefficient means of understanding an idea. When one seeks truth a neutral or positive (not gullible) attitude would seem the best to adopt. An attitude of doubt automatically closes the mind to the idea being considered. It is also worth noting that when one attacks another person then that person becomes much less likely to consider the ideas that the attacker might like to share. However, in all fairness, most attackers do not wish to share ideas and care only about proving others wrong merely to self enforce the notion of their correctness. It is an indulgence that blinds one to change. If one approaches the discussion of ideas as a type of sharing or a collaboration of minds synergy is created and ideas can flower and flourish, but when one mind becomes obsessed with it's own rightness to the point where it becomes threatened and attacks the ideas of others then doors of opportunity close to that person and others pull away or agree just to avoid the hassle. All in all such interaction is a lose/lose proposition. I am guilty of having done this myself so I understand it completely, but lately I have been trying to have a more open mind and I am tending away from such practices. This does not negate critical discussion or the consideration of new ideas, but creates a creative environment where useful ideas refine themselves and grow. Of course, I could be wrong...this is just my take.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223314 -

Doesn't this belong it that "other" forum?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Icelander]
    #7223344 -

Once a year here we gather round the campfire under virtual stars, roast marshmallows, spark a joint while FWG gently strums his guitar and we all join in a chorus of 'Koombaya'. :heart:

Then the next day we go back to being vicious assholes to one another.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (07/25/07 08:20 PM)

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Icelander]
    #7223349 -

You really have a valid point there, but I do feel that this is about the critical discussion of ideas and how that business is conducted. Argument and attack may not always be the best tack, but it does have it's place. The other forum is about NOT expressing differences of opinion, while I am discussing the sharing of differences of opinion. Violence and force are not the only way. This is also not a mysticism or paranormal thread.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7223355 -

I would rather sing some Moody Blues songs instead...Koombaya has never been a favorite.

Quote:
And he thought of those he angered,
For he was not a violent man,
And he thought of those he hurt
For he was not a cruel man
And he thought of those he frightened
For he was not an evil man,
And he understood.
He understood himself.

Upon this he saw that when he was of anger or knew hurt or felt fear,
It was because he was not understanding,
And he learned, compassion.

And with his eye of compassion.
He saw his enemies like unto himself,
And he learned love.
Then, he was answered.

Just open your eyes,
And realize, the way its always been.
Just open your mind
And you will find
The way its always been.
Just open your heart
And thats a start.



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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223394 -

I still get chills when I hear that song. Must be the closet mystic-head in me...


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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223395 -

viscous assholes?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223396 -

I was teasing a little.:D

Now of course, you are correct, IMO. But you don't really expect any of us to actually be pursuing enlightenment here?:monkeydance: Still I suspect your method would be useful to us mundane folk also. In fact I have tried it out a few times myself. It worked so well that I immediately stopped it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Icelander]
    #7223455 -

I find the ideas that I have presented here to enormously threatening to me...this is why I think it has worth.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223468 -

oh well, buck it up and endeavor to preservere.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7223601 -

Me too.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Icelander]
    #7223617 -

Quote:
I sought don Juan's company avidly. I left everything pending in Los Angeles and made a trip to Sonora. I told him about the strange mood that I had entered into with my friends. Sobbing with remorse, I said to him that I had begun to judge them.

"Don't get so worked up over nothing," don Juan said calmly. "You already know that a whole era in your life is coming to an end, but an era doesn't really come to an end until the king dies."

"What do you mean by that, don Juan?"

"You are the king, and you are just like your friends. That is the truth that makes you shake in your boots. One thing you can do is to accept it at face value, which, of course, you can't do. The other thing you can do is to say, 'I am not like that, I am not like that,' and repeat to yourself that you are not like that. I promise you, however, that a moment will come when you will realize that you are like that."

--Carlos Castaneda


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7223706 -

Well if one is threatened in the course of a discussion of metaphysics/morals/spirituality, then they have something to lose, and I think the aim of spirituality should be to learn that you have nothing to lose.

Like you seem to hint at, if you find yourself becoming anxious during the course of a discussion because it differs from your views in an important way, then you have exposed in yourself some doubt and should continue the discussion as neutrally as possible to cultivate that doubt so that when it is finally large enough to grasp (to see lucidly what is networking to cause the doubt) you can tear it out.

What tends to go with that doubt, however, is something you've assumed or attached yourself to.

I try to never suppress anything. I think suppression is the fastest way to cheap imitation of realisation. Often, however, you can simply be confused and there might be nothing there amidst the tangle of words. It's learning to discern the useless self-defeating thoughts from the provokative and exposing thoughts and how well you do this that ultimately defines your spiritual and psychological health.


--------------------
"Misery only doth exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; naught save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it."

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: tools_n_corpses]
    #7223885 -

Quote:
Like you seem to hint at, if you find yourself becoming anxious during the course of a discussion because it differs from your views in an important way, then you have exposed in yourself some doubt and should continue the discussion as neutrally as possible to cultivate that doubt so that when it is finally large enough to grasp (to see lucidly what is networking to cause the doubt) you can tear it out.


I don't feel threatened...I just don't feel the need to defend spiritual ideas anymore. if you read my past threads you will see that I have participated in very aggressive attacks and defenses against attacks...it doesn't make me uncomfortable. I am very good at debate. I am starting to pursue a path of nonaggression, and I am looking at my day to day communications in this light. I no longer want to attack or defend. I am starting to feel that by aggressively defending my views that I am tying myself down to them in a way that negates change. Others are quite welcome to attack my views at will...don't expect that I will really care of course. All of the recommendations that I am making here are only for me.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/25/07 11:43 PM)

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7224276 -

Personally I have a hatred (I really don't like associating hate with anything/one) for intolerance. It just so happens that many religions, especially the major ones i.e. Christianity, Judaism, Muslims etc, fall into that category. I don't necessarily hate all religious people, just the ones that have no tolerance for people of other religions/beliefs. For example, I can't stand the fact that many of the laws in the US and other parts of the world are there because of the sole reason of organized religion. They're there because the major religion of that country believes the law ought to be. Which sucks for the minority that don't believe in the law. It's just aggravating that so many rights and choices are taken away because religion says it's "wrong".

I understand why you have such a strong dislike for Muslims because they ARE much more strict and violent in present day. I think you know in your heart that you don't hate Muslims simply because they're Muslim, but that you hate the Muslims that are intolerant of other people. I can't decide if it makes me a hypocrite to hate someone for hating others. :shrug:


--------------------
β€œLet’s put it this way – to lump psychedelic mushrooms into the same group as methamphetamine is like lumping the Bible into the same group as Mein Kampf.
I mean shit; they’re both books, right?”

Joe Rogan


R.I.P. - "Bones" - One of the greatest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know and become friends with.

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: cookeman]
    #7224288 -

I don't dislike Muslims. I try to love everybody.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7224448 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I still get chills when I hear that song. Must be the closet mystic-head in me...


afraid to come out of the closet are we?  :naughty:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7225895 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
I sought don Juan's company avidly. I left everything pending in Los Angeles and made a trip to Sonora. I told him about the strange mood that I had entered into with my friends. Sobbing with remorse, I said to him that I had begun to judge them.

"Don't get so worked up over nothing," don Juan said calmly. "You already know that a whole era in your life is coming to an end, but an era doesn't really come to an end until the king dies."

"What do you mean by that, don Juan?"

"You are the king, and you are just like your friends. That is the truth that makes you shake in your boots. One thing you can do is to accept it at face value, which, of course, you can't do. The other thing you can do is to say, 'I am not like that, I am not like that,' and repeat to yourself that you are not like that. I promise you, however, that a moment will come when you will realize that you are like that."

--Carlos Castaneda


so true


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: onlynow]
    #7226062 -

Quote:
afraid to come out of the closet are we?



My closet has some nice throw pillows, a decent stereo, a lava lamp and a mini-frig. Why should I leave?


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Re: Attacking People to Find Truth [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7227331 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
afraid to come out of the closet are we?

 

My closet has some nice throw pillows, a decent stereo, a lava lamp and a mini-frig. Why should I leave?


because outside your closet is my truck, and it has a bigger stereo, with big subwoofers that will vibrate your body into bliss.  :hehehe:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness

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