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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #7177230 -

Im not trying to discourage or change your opinion of it, just wondering if you even had enough knowledge of the subject to make an informed opinion.

If you are truly interested in finding out why Scientology hates Germany so much, dig up some of the crimes that the country and its citizens have committed against the church. Even the Un had to step in at one point to reprimand Germany. Churches have been burned down, and basically, all the highlights of textbook religious persecution have been done to the Scientologists in Germany.
Also, look to the economy and the companies that basically are Germany and you will find Merck at the top of it... then maybe do a little research as to what eugenics is and the role that psychiatry and psychiatrists played during, before and after the Hitler regime.

Im not here to defend the actions of Scientology, merely show a different perspective. Scientology fights fire with fire.... what I am getting at I guess is that people jump all over the church when they sue someone or dig up dirt on them, when the very people who are "victims" of this, did the exact same thing to the church.

Scientology doesnt have a huge lobbying organization, nor does it have such a theological grasp as the other bigger religions, it is barely, if even, represented politically and has to stay on the defensive in the face of such negative PR campaigns against it. Even the Pinellas county police department in Clearwater, Fl was found to be antagonistic against the church and tried to create evidence as well as withheld evidence in the trial of Lisa McPherson.

I also want to add that my mother is OT7, the second highest level in Scientology, and did this while raising me on her own, making about 35k a year.... so, through all the years, and all the people I have talked to, and dealt with, who were/are scientologists, I have yet to hear anyone who claimed they were financially taken advantage of.

All I ask is that in the future, when you see these reports, try looking at them with as little bias as possible. Can you honestly say that you would automatically give more credibility, or belief to a thread claiming the church had wronged someone in some way, over a thread claiming that scientology is good?

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #7177237 -

Yes, but scientology doesn't go out and "get" people. It is just a set of ideas, a group of people who agree to follow those ideas, and not an individual entity. Blaming a religion for the actions of the followers is a bit silly, IMO. While it makes sense to question beliefs, and examine the results of applying said beliefs, we are not victims of the beliefs systems we choose to follow.

Just as some Christians may take "an eye for an eye" literally and use it to justify their violent actions, and some Christians make take "love thy neighbor as thyself" literally and use it to inspire their open-hearted acceptance of others, the application of beliefs is dependent upon the believer.

Edit: (after reading the above post) My mother was also involved in Scientology. She was excommunicated for questioning some of the financial practices of the leaders in the particular church she attended. She was fairly high-level, and we never had any money to be stolen, so she clearly was not advanced based upon contributions. I've personally always thought that being religious was a huge waste of time and energy, and so I looked upon her involvement with disdain.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Ravus]
    #7177257 -

Quote:
It in no way resembles the Dharmic religions in its message, however, which tend to emphasize more than the individual's choices and their suffering in relation to their thoughts, an entirely valid way to understand mental reality.



actually, the biggest aspect of Scientology is focusing on the self. Body thetans, Xenu and whatnot has absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs.
It has about as much to do with the practices and tenets of the religion as the wall of jericho does to christianity.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #7177284 -

x2and2makes5 said:
horrified is the word i chose because, in my opinion, it's a cult that is sucking people in and theres nothing to be done about it. It's almost been made into a joke (not that i don't love the south park episode dealing with scientology :tongue:), when in reality it's brainwashing people and in some cases, completely alienating them from their loved ones (not to mention the money in their pockets..)



ah, they brainwash people? how so?
Scientology doesnt hold a gun to anyones head, nor do its members.

what I find scary in your post is the phrase "and nothing can be done about it".... it is this type of witch-hunt thinking that births religious persecution and intolerance.
What has Scientology ever done to you? or are you trying to protect the brainwashable, poor, unsuspecting masses... is it your duty as a superiorly intelligent person who can see through the bullshit of scientology, yet cannot see through the bullshit of news stories, other peoples opinions and cartoons, to wrest personal choice from all the people who could have possibly one day joined scientology?

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7177288 -

i fear this post may have come off as if i think all scientologists are evil, which i certainly dont, and apoligise if that was how it seemed. YA, the opinion i hold is one based off of what i personally have found in reading into scientology. im sure its barely scratching the surface, and i also think that there are lots of people who were genuinely helped through it without running into any of the , what i would consider, negative aspects.


--------------------
Try to realise it's all within yourself
no one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small
and life flows on within you and without you

MUST HAVE MUSIC
1  2

Shroomery Music Exchange

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: x2and2makes5]
    #7177311 -

If they're not evil, why are you horrified?


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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7177363 -

YawningAnus said:
Quote:
It in no way resembles the Dharmic religions in its message, however, which tend to emphasize more than the individual's choices and their suffering in relation to their thoughts, an entirely valid way to understand mental reality.



actually, the biggest aspect of Scientology is focusing on the self. Body thetans, Xenu and whatnot has absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs.
It has about as much to do with the practices and tenets of the religion as the wall of jericho does to christianity.


Even excluding all the sci-fi bullshit which has been reported to be in the higher stages of the teachings of Scientology, Scientology has no enlightenment in it. It's full of hypocritical claims, and the life of L. Ron Hubbard completely contradicts the "religion" he founded. Scientologists rail against psychiatric drugs, yet Hubbard liked to get fucked up on prescription drugs like barbituates and amphetamines and was on psychiatric drugs when he died.

Interviews with people who would know, such as L. Ron Hubbard's first child who left the Church and is now hounded by them, paint Scientology not as enlightening truth about the self, but simply as a cult of egotism and selfishness.

"Scientology is a power-and-money-and-intelligence-gathering game. To use common, everyday English, Scientology says that you and I and everybody else willed ourselves into being hundreds of trillions of years ago --just by deciding to be. We willed ourselves into being ourselves. Through wild space games, interaction, fights, and wars in the grand science-fiction tradition, we created this universe --all the matter, energy, space, and time of this universe. And so through these trillions of years, we have become the effect of our own cause and we now find ourselves trapped in bodies. So the idea of Scientology "auditing" or "counseling" or "processing" is to free yourself from your body and to return you to the original godlike state or, in Scientology jargon, an operating Thetan --O.T. We are all fallen gods, according to Scientology, and the goal is to be returned to that state."

"A whole range of people. People who wanted to raise their IQ, to feel better, to solve their problems. You also got people who wished to lord it over other people in the use of power. Remember, it's a power game, a matter of climbing a pyramidal hierarchy to the top, and it's who you can step on to get more power that counts. It appeals a great deal to neurotics. And to people who are greedy. It appeals a great deal to Americans, I think, because they tend to believe in instant everything, from instant coffee to instant nirvana. By just saying a few magic words or by doing a few assignments, one can become a god. People believe this. You see, Scientology doesn't really address the soul; it addresses the ego. What happens in Scientology is that a person's ego gets pumped up by this science-fiction fantasy helium into universe-sized proportions. And this is very appealing. It is especially appealing to the intelligentsia of this country, who are made to feel that they are the most highly intelligent people, when in actual fact, from an emotional standpoint, they are completely stupid. Fine professors, doctors, scientists, people involved in the arts and sciences, would fall into Scientology like you wouldn't believe. It appealed to their intellectual level and buttressed their emotional weaknesses. You show me a professor and I revert back to the fifties: I just kick him in the head, eat him for breakfast."
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm

Indeed, Judeo-Christianity isn't much better, but at least Christianity started off rather selfless and enlightened in the hands of Jesus before other people than its prophet turned it into shit. Scientology was simply unenlightened from the start.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Ravus]
    #7177381 -

Ravus said:
Even excluding all the sci-fi bullshit which has been reported to be in the higher stages of the teachings of Scientology, Scientology has no enlightenment in it.


One man's enlightenment is another man's belly laugh.
- a corruption of a Robert Heinlein quote


--------------------
fuck, Fuck, FUCK and DOUBLE FUCK!!!

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: hezzra]
    #7177382 -

YA,i assume no responsibility of "protecting" anyone. im far from an extremely intelligent person...and i certainly harbor no intolerance for anyone of any religion. it was silly of my to post my opinion before reading 5 books on the subject... i will gladly remain open minded to both sides. i like to think i remained civil throughout... therefore i see no need for you to be an asshole... i suppose im just a slave to the media monster. all things considered, it's been an intresting discussion.


--------------------
Try to realise it's all within yourself
no one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small
and life flows on within you and without you

MUST HAVE MUSIC
1  2

Shroomery Music Exchange

Edited by x2and2makes5 (07/15/07 12:54 AM)

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Ravus]
    #7177399 -

so all the people who claim that scientology has enlightened them, enriched their lives and wellbeing are liars?

if you want to say that "I think that scientology is incapable of enlightening people", fine, go ahead.

How is it possible that these people are sucked in, and have their ego's puffed with the "sci-fi nonsense" if you yourself just stated that it isnt taught until higher levels?
or are you claiming that it is promised: join scientology and you can read peoples minds!!!!

This entire article is someones (poor) interpretation of scientology. It isnt factual, and it is just another opinion. i really dont see the point in posting that.

so, you have your opinion. This guy had his opinion. L. Ron's son has an opinion. I have an opinion. veritas has an opinion.

we are all free to have our opinions, but please dont act like an opinion is fact, and that the opinions should be used to sway other peoples opinions.
I could go find thousands of quotes from people who are of the opinion that scientology is helpful and a great religion.

so... what is your point? are you claiming that scientology brainwashes people and forces them to practice it? or are you just against people making their own spiritual and religious choices?

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7177435 -

My point is stated quite clearly. People should have the freedom to join whatever religion or cult makes them happy, but Scientology is undoubtedly one of the most self-centered and egotistical belief systems out there. It takes after its founder in that way.

You say some in Scientology say that it enlightened them, but just because a belief system makes people happy it does not mean they are "enlightened". If the belief system is determined by the general differences it creates in the followers, then by the actions of the founders and leaders of Scientology, we see that it instills no compassion for enemies in people, contrary to what originally enlightened prophets such as Jesus or the Buddha tried to teach. That alone would make me think of Scientology as having completely missed the point of spirituality.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Veritas]
    #7179008 -

Veritas said:
People commit atrocities, not belief systems.

Some belief systems lend followers easier excuses for their unskillful behavior, but this is still dependent upon the followers.


This is exactly why this topic has to do with Spirituality. The concept of "spirit" has everything to do with people's inner motivation, and what makes a person enthusiastic about some ideals, and what are the ultimate causes of actions and moral decisions (in Aristotle's teleological sense aka his "final cause").

Since belief systems can influence people's behaviour rather strongly, I think it is dangerous to dismiss the ideological factor when atrocities are committed. But that discussion deserves a thread of its own, I think...

In my eyes, Scientology doesn't seem more or less dangerous than any other cult. The main problem I have with cults that claim to be sources of moral authority, is when they teach discrimination: be nice to cult members, be less nice to others. I don't know where Scientology stands formally regarding this issue, but the fact that the organization that founded Scientology didn't want their holy religious scriptures known (about DC-8 airplanes flying people across the galaxy 75 million years ago in order to dump people in volcanoes on Earth and then blow up all the volcanoes with hydrogen bombs) unless you paid them lots of money, makes me inclined to suspect that Scientology is a discriminatory cult at heart.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7179045 -

Belief systems have as much power as people choose to invest in them.  Scientology did not gain power over me merely because I was exposed to it, nor because I had a parent deeply involved in it.  Neither did Catholicism, which my entire extended family is immersed in.  Neither did Christianity, which is followed by the majority of people in the town where I grew up.

I did not choose to invest MY power into these belief systems, and therefore they did not have influence over my behavior.  This is why I say that followers commit atrocities, not belief systems.  Followers also may perform noble and beneficial actions, but their religion is not responsible for those acts, either.

My main objection to organized religion is the demand that followers give up their power, surrender their will, have faith and believe.  Stop questioning, stop wondering, stop thinking critically.  :tongue:  Yet many seem willing to make this deal in exchange for whatever guarantees they are offered.  (Heaven, enlightenment, security, community, what have you.)

Each to his/her own, I suppose.  Blaming the cults is missing the point, IMO.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Ravus]
    #7179463 -

Ravus said:
My point is stated quite clearly. People should have the freedom to join whatever religion or cult makes them happy, but Scientology is undoubtedly one of the most self-centered and egotistical belief systems out there. It takes after its founder in that way.

You say some in Scientology say that it enlightened them, but just because a belief system makes people happy it does not mean they are "enlightened". If the belief system is determined by the general differences it creates in the followers, then by the actions of the founders and leaders of Scientology, we see that it instills no compassion for enemies in people, contrary to what originally enlightened prophets such as Jesus or the Buddha tried to teach. That alone would make me think of Scientology as having completely missed the point of spirituality.


since we are making observations here, I just want to say that if you truly think the above, then you have completely missed the point of Scientology, and frankly, you dont know dick about its actual beliefs and practices.

would you mind elaborating as to some examples, or reasons why you think Scientology's belief system is self-centered (im guessing you meant this with negative connotation) and egotistical?

oh, also, are you the enlightenment police? are you such an enlightened and aware being that you can say without flinching that nobody in scientology is enlightened? and if so, what criteria did you use to dictate who is enlightened and who isnt? I wasnt aware that there was a universal, textbook group of characteristics and beliefs that one had to possess to be deemed "enlightened".

I could be wrong, but I dont think that Scientology promises enlightenment...

as for your personal distaste of L. Ron, it seems that almost all of your "study" done regarding him is from Jon Atack... a man who has launched a 10 year campaign against L. Ron Hubbard (post mortem) and ultimately the church of scientology, based almost exclusively from alleged interviews with people.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7179557 -

I have mixed feelings about that documentary; on one hand it is certainly biased, the reporters constant use of the word 'cult' is indeed meant to be provocative. The scientologist who states that it should be the followers choice as to whether what they follower is a religion or not is in my mind perfectly true. The BBC guy is a poor reporter who seems more suited to a tabloid than a supposed world class news organisation.

Having said that the main scientologist throughout the documentary is equally as unprofessional, in fact more so. If they wish for bigoted governments to recognise them as a religion then they are going the wrong way about it, their attack, attack, attack philosophy is the main reason people will yell 'cult'. They give themselves know credit.

From what i have read the founder does seem a hypocritical fraud, YawningAnus wrote "and ultimately the church of scientology, based almost exclusively from alleged interviews with people." On what merit are you questioning the authenticity of these interviews? Don't get me wrong, i am not attacking your point i am genuinely curious.

I don't feel that i can say if a religions beliefs are credible or not, nor can i say if they are more credible than other religions. So i won't. What i will say is that regardless of biased, crappy reporting (from several different documentaries), what i have seen of scientology isn't exactly encouraging mainly due to the overly offensive attitudes of those associated with it. I keep an open mind however and appreciate the right of those involved to defend themselves from vile media sources.


--------------------
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses. " ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7179742 -

Not to take sides here but Scientologists killed Lisa McPherson. This happened not far from me in Clearwater Florida so I'm familiar with the tragedy as a local event.

Although she was a willing participant, Scientologists represented themselves as better qualified than her doctors to treat her. With that authority, they convinced her to stop taking her prescription medications and sequestered her for treatment.

The bizarre treatment included withholding water for over a week. When she was finally taken to a hospital, she was covered in bruises and bedsores. Doctors estimated she had been unconscious for about 48 hours. Why her caregivers waited 48 hours after she lost consciousness before taking her to the hospital is inexplicable. She eventually died of a pulmonary embolism.

Following her death the Church of Scientology was indicted on two felony charges "abuse and/or neglect of a disabled adult and practicing medicine without a license".

Scientology also has a history of aggression against anyone who speaks derisively about it. They sue people frequently and send members to follow and intimidate anyone who doesn't agree with them. I agree that people are responsible for their actions and blaming an organization or ideology for someone's behavior makes no sense, but intimidation does appear to be systematic in Scientology.

Scientology is less than honest. They run several front groups under different names to recruit new members. These groups include Narconon which treats drug addiction for a fee. They lie about their success rate to get people to join. They use the pseudonym in order to avoid the negative connotation the word Scientology carries.

They also run the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights which is a thinly veiled attempt to funnel members to the church by again obscuring the organization actually running the show.

And they run Applied Scholastics which promotes something called "Study Technology", but again this is a front group to recruit members while obscuring who's really behind it. There are several more of these.

During the Fox News broadcast of the memorial service at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., following the World Trade Center tragedy, a crawling banner across the bottom of the screen displayed a toll-free number for "National Mental Health Assistance."

This was done in an effort to usurp the REAL and respected National Mental Health Association name. A boldfaced lie.

When a viewer recognized the number as belonging to a Scientology hotline and notified Fox, they immediately removed the banner. A later complaint from the real NMHA to the Church of Scientology was laughed off by the church.

Again, I agree that people are responsible for their own actions, but that assumes they're making informed decisions. When someone is lied to either directly or through a deliberate omission, they're no longer making informed decisions. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Now, I'm not qualified to judge, but none of the above seems very enlightened to me and some of it seems downright shitty.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7179792 -

I think its important to note that this entire situation with Lisa was a matter of psychiactic treatment, and not medical.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: daytripper23]
    #7179811 -

Psychiatry IS medicine


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7179830 -

Correct. It's allopathic mainstream medicine.:thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7179844 -

well i guess for those who do distinguish a difference.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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