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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Religions "demands" just as much as philosophy does. Following blindly comes from the follower, not the followed. Neither religion nor philosophy are actually making that choice, the individual does and they have NO other power than that given by those who choose to follow them.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8022698 - 02/14/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've never seen a crusade of righteous Nietzscheans...
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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We're not talking about crusades in the restricted sense, we're talking about followers. For that I'll give you a short example: the followers of Pythagoras.
Here's some info: http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/pyth1.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12587b.htm
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8024312 - 02/14/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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How do starving children have to do with attacking things? Is attacking Scientology like helping starving children in some way. Do these children need violence (attack is a violence) to be fed? I don't understand your point.
the connection was children starving in africa doesn't directly effect me. people being harassed or killed by scientology doesn't directly effect me. Ignoring starving kids in africa doesn't make them stop starving. ignoring scientology doesn't make it stop harassing people.
in fact if anything ignoring it and focusing on something else worsens the problem.
generally speaking the "attacks" on scientology you're suggesting are philosophically or spiritually pointless, are generally speaking the physical acts of spreading information about the negative aspects of scientology, often the very information they are physically working to conceal...
generally speaking i would say that ignoring information about potential threats isn't a good way to attain peace or health, a car doesn't actually become a threat up until a certain point. without consistent monitoring of the situation the moment at which the car becomes a threat cannot be accurately judged. hence the example of a car.
i don't really care one way or another about scientology as i've stated. i think they're out of body stuff is really cool, but also in this thread i've given the reasons why OTHER people feel scientology needs to be "attacked" (information spread about them). basically is they're not afraid to ruin lives if people try and give a full view of the scope of their activities.
also i disagree with your assertion that points of focus become obsessions or fears.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8025801 - 02/15/08 02:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please learn to direct your answers next time, it's a simple thing to do so we know who's talking to who. 
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in fact if anything ignoring it and focusing on something else worsens the problem.
Really? How?  If everyone would be ignoring anyone else's matters, then we would live in a "live and let live" mentality. Sounds perfect to me. 
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generally speaking the "attacks" on scientology you're suggesting are philosophically or spiritually pointless, are generally speaking the physical acts of spreading information about the negative aspects of scientology, often the very information they are physically working to conceal...
I think that what he was trying to say was that all the problems this world has are the result of intolerance. Attacking intolerance (or anything else) is still intolerance.  What constructive results can come out of this? 
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generally speaking i would say that ignoring information about potential threats isn't a good way to attain peace or health, a car doesn't actually become a threat up until a certain point. without consistent monitoring of the situation the moment at which the car becomes a threat cannot be accurately judged. hence the example of a car.
There's a HUGE difference between staying informed and taking action against a particular information. What he was trying to say was that since Scientology doesn't present any direct threat to him, it would be mindless of him to start attacking it. And if it would present a direct threat to him, then it wouldn't be called attack, but defense (if he decided to take action against that threat). Can you note the fine distinction? 
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also i disagree with your assertion that points of focus become obsessions or fears.
Attacks are the result of fear. This is simple stuff here.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8026544 - 02/15/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i'm still going to disagree and say attacks are not the right word, in fact its a very strange word choice. like i said, most of the protesters i've talked to were just trying to spread negative truths, there is no one going around physically harming scientology members or property.
i would disagree that aggressive behavior is always the result of fear. I guess the argument could be made that the root is always fear, but alot of people engage in aggressive behavior because dominance leads to personal benefit. Also i would say people "attack" other people just out of general anger and spite.
I understand that scientology isn't at present a direct threat against him. It is to some people though (in the eyes of those who says its an evil cult). If he feels no kinship or community with the people that scientology harms then it would make sense that worry about scientology would bring him no benifit. Proteting scientology is for most people (i know there are some ex-scientologists and scientology family members who protest) a public work, helping to protect everyone.
If seriously doubt there is any one thing that you can say all the problems of the world are the result of. i think intolerance has many benifits, both for the person and the community.
The good that can come out of protesting is perhaps you see someone that was thinking of joining scientology. you give him a pamphlet that tells the stories of people who have had negative experiences with scientology, and so the person decides not to join.
Also, in the theoretical realms. its not impossible to imagine that left unchecked, one day you could be learning dianetics in college instead of psychology or (fuck, pharmocapathy isn't a word, and i can not for the life of me remeber the real word for this).
edit: i remembered, it was pharmacology.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
Edited by truekimbo2 (02/15/08 10:24 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8026722 - 02/15/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
i'm still going to disagree and say attacks are not the right word, in fact its a very strange word choice. like i said, most of the protesters i've talked to were just trying to spread negative truths, there is no one going around physically harming scientology members or property.
Disinformation is a way of attack.
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i would disagree that aggressive behavior is always the result of fear. I guess the argument could be made that the root is always fear, but alot of people engage in aggressive behavior because dominance leads to personal benefit. Also i would say people "attack" other people just out of general anger and spite.
Yes, but like even you admitted, the root is still fear. Where are you trying to get with all that?
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I understand that scientology isn't at present a direct threat against him. It is to some people though (in the eyes of those who says its an evil cult). If he feels no kinship or community with the people that scientology harms then it would make sense that worry about scientology would bring him no benifit. Proteting scientology is for most people (i know there are some ex-scientologists and scientology family members who protest) a public work, helping to protect everyone.
Other people that are supposedly harmed have done this to themselves and will (or will not) learn their lessons. Why should I or anyone else want to "help" them? How do we know what we're indeed helping them? Can we know what's best for others? Can we assume this kind of responsibility? I choose not to and I believe that it is a huge error to think that you know what's best for others and act upon that.
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If seriously doubt there is any one thing that you can say all the problems of the world are the result of. i think intolerance has many benifits, both for the person and the community.
Such as?
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The good that can come out of protesting is perhaps you see someone that was thinking of joining scientology. you give him a pamphlet that tells the stories of people who have had negative experiences with scientology, and so the person decides not to join.
And how do you KNOW that you helped him this way?
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Also, in the theoretical realms. its not impossible to imagine that left unchecked, one day you could be learning dianetics in college instead of psychology or (fuck, pharmocapathy isn't a word, and i can not for the life of me remeber the real word for this).
edit: i remembered, it was pharmacology.
Confusing pharmacology with psychology?  You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, right? If you do, I promise to take it back, in the moment you'll start making some sense.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (02/15/08 11:12 AM)
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8026967 - 02/15/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Confusing pharmacology with psychology?  You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, right? If you do, I promise to take it back, in the moment you'll start making some sense.
i didn't confuse psychology with pharmacology. i just couldn't think of the word. scientology is against those two things, thats why i listed grouped them.
i guess since you weren't aware those that scientology campaigns against those two, you confused my reason for grouping them.
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And how do you KNOW that you helped him this way?
I don't think that i can 100% say beforehand or afterwards that i've definitely helped someone, the webs of cause and effect are greater than anyone can fully plot out i think. I do what i think is right within the scope of reason and hope for the best, i think when it comes to helping people thats pretty much all i can do.
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Other people that are supposedly harmed have done this to themselves and will (or will not) learn their lessons. Why should I or anyone else want to "help" them? How do we know what we're indeed helping them? Can we know what's best for others? Can we assume this kind of responsibility? I choose not to and I believe that it is a huge error to think that you know what's best for others and act upon that.
my response is the same as the one directly above. i would say that i am willing to take that responsibility though, since i have very little political or social power i'm not really worried about doing damage to society if i'm wrong.
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es, but like even you admitted, the root is still fear. Where are you trying to get with all that?
i said it could be argued the root is fear. what i was trying to get at is that although most of a person's actions come from a limited set of of subconscious rules, in practice the simple world of subconscious reasoning i often closed off from us, and we have to accept that to the conscious mind, there is an interaction between multiple layers of complex emotion and thought. i don't think that in dealing with the world its effective to only deal with the deepest of the subconscious impulses. so i would say that when interacting with other people, treating all attack as the a result of fear would not be correct.
also, i'm not sure how saying that all attack comes from fear links up with me stating that objects of focus don't as a rule become fears and obsessions?
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Disinformation is a way of attack.
i would agree, but i didn't say the protesters were spreading false information, i said they were spreading TRUE information of a negative nature.
not to say that the protesters aren't spreading dis-info, but their goal is to spread real info.
like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment. this policy killed someone.
is me telling you that an attack on scientology?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027429 - 02/15/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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scientology has nothing against psychology really.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027595 - 02/15/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
i didn't confuse psychology with pharmacology. i just couldn't think of the word. scientology is against those two things, thats why i listed grouped them.
i guess since you weren't aware those that scientology campaigns against those two, you confused my reason for grouping them.
From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against. I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two. 
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I don't think that i can 100% say beforehand or afterwards that i've definitely helped someone, the webs of cause and effect are greater than anyone can fully plot out i think. I do what i think is right within the scope of reason and hope for the best, i think when it comes to helping people thats pretty much all i can do.
So did Hitler. He thought he was doing right. Everybody who act their will upon others or try to change them think it's right. The problem is that the views on "right" differ from person to person, so how can you really tell which ons is the right from the rights?  Yours, right?  In a measure yes: that you keep it to yourself and let others live as they wish. Wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex not because you are more aware than the rest. 
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my response is the same as the one directly above. i would say that i am willing to take that responsibility though, since i have very little political or social power i'm not really worried about doing damage to society if i'm wrong.
Ahhh so you don't really care about the well being of anybody (just as I suspected and this confirms my suspicions).  And the only reason why you would have second thoughts about changing the world is if you knew you would officially be held responsible.  This is getting interesting...
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i said it could be argued the root is fear. what i was trying to get at is that although most of a person's actions come from a limited set of of subconscious rules, in practice the simple world of subconscious reasoning i often closed off from us, and we have to accept that to the conscious mind, there is an interaction between multiple layers of complex emotion and thought.
Yes, I know you said that. This is exactly what you said the last time too, only with other words. Yes our minds are complex, so is the universe and the solar system and blah blah blah. Let's cut to the chase because this is all useless poetry. Do they or do they not result from fear? How does fear improve our lives? From my own observations (supported by psychological observations), fear is an impediment for living life consciously, balanced and healthy.
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i don't think that in dealing with the world its effective to only deal with the deepest of the subconscious impulses. so i would say that when interacting with other people, treating all attack as the a result of fear would not be correct.
And why is that? Why do you think it's not good to deal with the deepest subconscious thoughts? How do you know that we even got to the bottom? Could it also be true that the subconscious has MANY layers as well? Analyzing the subconscious doesn't exclude analyzing the conscious, super conscious and so on. On the contrary, it is more indicated to analyze all of them if it is in our intention to know what the fuck is happening with us. 
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i would agree, but i didn't say the protesters were spreading false information, i said they were spreading TRUE information of a negative nature.
Is is STILL a form of attack, even if so. I am not defending Scientology but I am also not defending any other dogma.
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not to say that the protesters aren't spreading dis-info, but their goal is to spread real info.
What's the psychological difference between them and those who want to spread "info" because they think they are on a mission received from a higher power?
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like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment. this policy killed someone.
The policy killed someone because they didn't carefully read the wavier, not because they were forced to sign it against they conscious will. Can you realize the difference between those two?
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is me telling you that an attack on scientology?
It could be considered an attempt to attack Scientology if I considered joining it.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
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http://www.cchr.org/index/5276/5329/6478/
i notice they made a documentary called "psychiatry: an industry of death"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027628 - 02/15/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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truekimbo2 said: http://www.cchr.org/index/5276/5329/6478/
i notice they made a documentary called "psychiatry: an industry of death"
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MushroomTrip said: From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against. I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two. 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027664 - 02/15/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against. I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two.
no you don't need me to explain the difference. your understanding is incomplete scientology is against both. I think in fact that the American psychological association has condemned scientology.
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So did Hitler. He thought he was doing right. Everybody who act their will upon others or try to change them think it's right. The problem is that the views on "right" differ from person to person, so how can you really tell which ons is the right from the rights?  Yours, right?  In a measure yes: that you keep it to yourself and let others live as they wish. Wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex not because you are more aware than the rest. 
But what about all the people that have helped the world? ghandi, martin luther, blah blah blah. your assumption wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex is rediculous, and a good end to this conversation.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027684 - 02/15/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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no you don't need me to explain the difference. your understanding is incomplete scientology is against both. I think in fact that the American psychological association has condemned scientology.
Yes I do.  If they American psychological association is against them, it doesn't mean that they don't apply psychological techniques or that they are also at war with psychology. Psychology, the human mind, is no one and the same with this association.
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But what about all the people that have helped the world? ghandi, martin luther, blah blah blah.
What about them? 
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your assumption wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex is rediculous, and a good end to this conversation.
Of course it is ridiculous, it is ridiculous to ed a conversation because of that, and also a nice cop out for excusing your inability to set things straight.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8027715 - 02/15/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
it is ridiculous to end a conversation because of that
you're probably right, but honestly i don't think this conversation is fruitful.
i don't think my justification for protesting scientology really matters to you, and it seems like we're going to in too many directions at once. i feel we can't find common ground to synthesize an opinoin. it has nothing to do with an inability to set things straight
on the psychology thing, the below quote was taken from the website i linked to (an organization founded and supported by scientology) and is current.
"Understanding this fraudulent diagnostic premise, we can see why psychiatry and psychology, entrusted with billions of dollars to eradicate the problems of the mind, have created and perpetuated them."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027734 - 02/15/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
you're probably right, but honestly i don't think this conversation is fruitful.
i don't think my justification for protesting scientology really matters to you, and it seems like we're going to in too many directions at once. i feel we can't find common ground to synthesize an opinoin. it has nothing to do with an inability to set things straight
Of course it doesn't "matter" to me, it is a simple debate and my life is not depending on it or its result. 
Quote:
on the psychology thing, the below quote was taken from the website i linked to (an organization founded and supported by scientology) and is current.
"Understanding this fraudulent diagnostic premise, we can see why psychiatry and psychology, entrusted with billions of dollars to eradicate the problems of the mind, have created and perpetuated them."
Yes, that's exactly why I said that an institution is NOT in any way one and the same with the human psyche.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8027773 - 02/15/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment. this policy killed someone.
sorry, but that isnt true.
Im really trying not to get in this discussion.... but I am reading it intently.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8027785 - 02/15/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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oh okay. yeah in that sense they're actually very big on psychology...
i meant that they disagree with the modern theories of psychology... I don't see how they could disagree with the techniques of psychological study, but i think they prefer their own.
hmm... now that i think of it, they say that they're an alternative to psychology but i wonder if they do any scientific studies... i think it may all just be based on the original conjecture of L. Ron Hubbard but i could wrong about that.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
#8027828 - 02/15/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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sorry, but that isnt true.
i could be wrong about it being a normal part of auditing. under what conditions are you required to sign this waiver?
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta/scn/scans/Introspection-Release.html
yawning: don't hold this thread against me... honestly i wouldn't protest scientology if anon wasn't telling me to do it. i think that many of the ideas and techniques are fascinating and i can imagine that they might be effective in bringing people happiness. i think that except for their crazy team of lawyers, most of the complaints against scientology are probably identical to complaints that would be made against any intensive spiritual practice.
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SneezingPenis
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as for the psychology thing, scientology doesnt have nearly as big of a problem with it as they do psychiatry. now, they arent fans of the field of psychology, but CCHR was craeted to end human rights violations done in the name of mental health. Psychology, taken literally as the study of the mind, isnt directly harmful, but scientologists belive practicing psychiatry is. now recently psychologists have started lobbying (and might even be able to now) to prescribe drugs... so when that happens, then yes, psychologists will be up there next to psychiatry. but for now, they only disagree with it, and are maybe miffed that it gets federal funding to indoctrinate people with a fundamentally flawed theory parading as science.
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