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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Anonymous vs Scientology
    #8008987 - 02/11/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Scientologist:


Anonymous:


Which one of these groups is the creepiest?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8009080 - 02/11/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Tough question :tongue:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8009402 - 02/11/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well, one is talking about helping people, and the other is talking about destroying a group of people....

granted, cruise is an extreme egotist, but beyond that I dont get what was so "creepy" about it. maybe there was something at the end, because it wouldnt load up all the way.
also, why does everyone think that Tom Cruise = scientology.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8009411 - 02/11/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

His behavior in that video IS creepy... the dude has the Messianic complex :eek:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8009412 - 02/11/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

lol, there was a list of a couple thousand email passwords given out last night, so i was plastering that video (the second one) over people's myspace pages.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8009794 - 02/11/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh yeah, also many people have noticed that the scientology raid yesterday got no national media attention, even though it was worldwide and in most major US cities at the same time.

next one is march 15th if you guys want to go.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlinejizmaster

Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8011084 - 02/11/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

well, one is talking about helping people, and the other is talking about destroying a group of people....




Which one is which? I have a feeling you mean the scientologists are about helping people but the don't seem very helpful unless you pay for it and don't say anything bad about it.

There's a lot of stuff on the net about it, it's hard to know what's true though...

The censorship thing is pretty clear though, search google news for 'scientology lawsuit' gives 1200 hits, 104 in 2004-2005! Lawyers must love them.

Seemed fitting when their website was DDOS'd after them getting all those youtube vids and comments removed.

And lol at the people in the EFG masks! We need an EFG smilie!


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Offlinebodhiman777
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: jizmaster]
    #8011164 - 02/11/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

anonymous is small time and deserves no respect.
what harm has scientology done that is any worse than the Christian reign of terror, the crusades, the inquisitions, witch burning, etc...?
why not go after religions that unjustly persecute women and mutilate their genitalia?
or the grown bearded men who spend time kissing a brick wall rather than bettering their violent environment?
all religions encourage ignorance, but some have ruined more lives than others. pick your battles wisely, because they don't really mean anything anyway.



--------------------
... and so forth


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8011172 - 02/11/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

all religions should be destroyed


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8011177 - 02/11/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The fact that other religions have "done worse" doesn't mean that we can't talk about what Scientology does. You don't have to directly persecute in order to have bad intentions.
Besides, a religion invented nowadays won't have much chances to succeed if it was to use such tactics. The seats for that are already taken and slowly fading away, leaving room for a new kind of indoctrination. I am not saying that I an sure that Scientology does that, but it is a possibility. Hence it's open for discussion. :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Atheist]
    #8011179 - 02/11/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
all religions should be destroyed




You know... some religious folks think the same way about those who don't believe in god?
What's the difference between your mentality and theirs?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8011180 - 02/11/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

theirs is completely wrong.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Atheist]
    #8011183 - 02/11/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok then


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8011205 - 02/11/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
granted, cruise is an extreme egotist, but beyond that I dont get what was so "creepy" about it.




An actor rambling about his for-profit religion being the authority on the mind seems pretty creepy to me... but maybe it is just his face. :shrug:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8011210 - 02/11/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhiman777 said:
anonymous is small time and deserves no respect.
what harm has scientology done that is any worse than the Christian reign of terror, the crusades, the inquisitions, witch burning, etc...?
why not go after religions that unjustly persecute women and mutilate their genitalia?
  or the grown bearded men who spend time kissing a brick wall rather than bettering their violent environment?
  all religions encourage ignorance, but some have ruined more lives than others. pick your battles wisely, because they don't really mean anything anyway.






:thumbup:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8011918 - 02/12/08 02:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so who do you think is "winning" this battle?

a group of people that hide their identity and make threats at people for their religious beliefs?
scientology infiltrated the US govt better than anyone else... ever.

if there is one thing that sticks out from all the scientology headline news... wouldnt it be obvious that:
1) they are designed, and compelled to be a self preserving entity
2) they are really fucking good at it.

people always want to talk about how litigious scientology is... but how many lawsuits were aimed at them? how many of those lawsuits were merely in defense, or preemptive?

it just seems to me that this group has had to lower themselves to what they believe the scientologists level is: antagonizing, threatening, determined, secretive cult hellbent on destroying an evil for what they believe to be the greatest good for all mankind.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8012014 - 02/12/08 04:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Careful what you say, guys. You just might get sued.

Seriously, though, what we have here is an obvious cult turned corporation and given official religion status, which I would say is quite fucking scary. Just because they haven't had any crusades (yet) doesn't mean they should be ignored.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (02/12/08 04:35 AM)


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8012096 - 02/12/08 05:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

it just seems to me that this group has had to lower themselves to what they believe the scientologists level is: antagonizing, threatening, determined, secretive cult hellbent on destroying an evil for what they believe to be the greatest good for all mankind.




i believe that point was brought up in the video, in fact i think anon encourages that point of view.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=255_1202738942

(i can't believe i still can't i figure out how to embed videos on here...)


Edited by truekimbo2 (02/12/08 05:57 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8012121 - 02/12/08 06:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

YawningAnus, you have stated that you are not a member of the Cult of $cientology, (or Church of Scientology, if you prefer) so why do you spend so much time defending them? You seem fairly well educated on the workings of the cult, their history, and so forth... and yet you defend them? I don't understand why, unless you are a member? You seem to be on a crusade to show how good and righteous the cult is rather than simply correcting misinformation. If you are not a member, then why?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Seuss]
    #8013248 - 02/12/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so when someone knows a lot about a certain topic in here, they shouldnt chime in?

see, you are certain that anyone that defends, or at least doesnt shout about how much they hate them, is a member.
If I was a member, I wouldnt try to hide it. it isnt something to be ashamed of, IMO. I just dont agree with a lot of the doctrine.

but I spent a lot of time with scientologists... years. and the widely held attitude towards them is based off of mob mentality.

I dont see really where I am defending them... all I am doing is adding some logic into this argument.
"ohhh tom cruise talking.... scary!".
"they sue people!"
"burn the witches!"

that entire video is nothing more than Tom Cruise talking about a scientology course. it isnt a recruiting video... and chances are, it was shown probably once at some quarterly meeting.

I mean, you guys are sitting here ignoring half of the story to rationalize and justify your hatred of them.
Imagine that you are in school and about half the people in school makes a serious effort to fuck with you... and then one day you snap and just start beating the shit out of all these people... it is kind of like looking at that kid and saying "OMG, what a bully".

do you deny that there are lots of people out there who wish immense malicious intent upon scientology and its members? go look up the history and progression of scientology in society and see who threw the first rock.
if you would just let them go about life like any other religion, you wouldnt see such a backlash from it.


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Offlinebodhiman777
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8013437 - 02/12/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
so when someone knows a lot about a certain topic in here, they shouldnt chime in?

see, you are certain that anyone that defends, or at least doesnt shout about how much they hate them, is a member.
If I was a member, I wouldnt try to hide it. it isnt something to be ashamed of, IMO. I just dont agree with a lot of the doctrine.

but I spent a lot of time with scientologists... years. and the widely held attitude towards them is based off of mob mentality.

I dont see really where I am defending them... all I am doing is adding some logic into this argument.
"ohhh tom cruise talking.... scary!".
"they sue people!"
"burn the witches!"

that entire video is nothing more than Tom Cruise talking about a scientology course. it isnt a recruiting video... and chances are, it was shown probably once at some quarterly meeting.

I mean, you guys are sitting here ignoring half of the story to rationalize and justify your hatred of them.
Imagine that you are in school and about half the people in school makes a serious effort to fuck with you... and then one day you snap and just start beating the shit out of all these people... it is kind of like looking at that kid and saying "OMG, what a bully".

do you deny that there are lots of people out there who wish immense malicious intent upon scientology and its members? go look up the history and progression of scientology in society and see who threw the first rock.
if you would just let them go about life like any other religion, you wouldnt see such a backlash from it.




you guys? hey now, lay off the generalizing.


--------------------
... and so forth


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8014204 - 02/12/08 06:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> that entire video is nothing more than Tom Cruise talking about a scientology course.

I didn't bother watching it. I wasn't trying to argue a point, but was really curious why you hold the position you do towards the group. Most people that know as much as you do about the group are either members or part of the burn the witch crowd. Your position is something of an enigma to me that I am trying to understand.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblebmiles
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8014213 - 02/12/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhiman777 said:
anonymous is small time and deserves no respect.
what harm has scientology done that is any worse than the Christian reign of terror, the crusades, the inquisitions, witch burning, etc...?
why not go after religions that unjustly persecute women and mutilate their genitalia?
or the grown bearded men who spend time kissing a brick wall rather than bettering their violent environment?
all religions encourage ignorance, but some have ruined more lives than others. pick your battles wisely, because they don't really mean anything anyway.





there is a youtube video that i am too lazy too look up
that shows how scientologists kill people.
they take medicine away from people,
and one lady was even gnawed on by rats in a hotel room,
taken to a far off "scientologist approved hospital"
and she died in transit, when she could have been
helped at the hospital that they took her from.


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8014239 - 02/12/08 06:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yawning Anus,

I'm sure most scientologists are dumb, but I really doubt they are dumb enough to believe in that Xenu alien shit.

Can you tell me what they actually believe in? Their website is really vague and the same with all their videos too.

*For the sake of this argument. Scientology seems a lot less threatening than christianity in my opinion. Who am I to tell others what to believe?


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Invisiblebmiles
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8014280 - 02/12/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ignore the crappy editing/music:


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Seuss]
    #8014450 - 02/12/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> that entire video is nothing more than Tom Cruise talking about a scientology course.

I didn't bother watching it. I wasn't trying to argue a point, but was really curious why you hold the position you do towards the group. Most people that know as much as you do about the group are either members or part of the burn the witch crowd. Your position is something of an enigma to me that I am trying to understand.




well, thats simple. I have seen both sides... the good and the bad.
and it isnt as good as Tom Cruise will tell you, but it isnt as bad as Xenu.net will tell you.
it actually has some worthwhile philosophy in it,IMO. as you know, my mother is OT7, but she no longer practices, and my dad got to what is called the L's. My mother had a very nice experience, but my dad feels financially cheated, even though to this day he uses "techs" for business and personal life.
so I have seenit from the inside, the outside and almost every other perspective possible and the one thing I can emphatically say is that people are there to better their lives, and they are almost all happier, healthier and more positive.

I really could care less if someone hates scientology, but my thirst for debate compels me... and when misinformation is presented, I cant morally justify idly sitting by.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8014485 - 02/12/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

like this statement...

Quote:

there is a youtube video that i am too lazy too look up
that shows how scientologists kill people.
they take medicine away from people,
and one lady was even gnawed on by rats in a hotel room,
taken to a far off "scientologist approved hospital"
and she died in transit, when she could have been
helped at the hospital that they took her from.




I cant help but laugh at this stuff. notice the gradual incline of how misinformation can lead to something as serious as someone claiming that someone was gnawed on by rats.
most likely, they heard from someone that heard from someone (etc.) about how one of the many dubiously changed coroners reports mentioned cockroach bites found on the body.... and add some time and the game telephone, it turns into rats gnawing on people.
the funny thing is that there was no evidence of cockroach bites... the coroner that changed their report 3 times without any reexamination of the body (but after talking to certain people) decided to put that in there... which was later shown to be grounds for bias and incompetency.

and again, the presiding judge said that the evidence shows the contrary of the prosecutions stance that she was forced to go to another hospital farther away, or restrained against her will.

all it takes is one person to tell you about something you have never really heard about, and spin it in such a negative way that they too ultimately hate it.. for no other reason than second hand opinion.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8014506 - 02/12/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I kinda feel Tom and what he says to be honest. He's a creepy bastard but whatever... I like him as an actor.

I walked into a scientology church once. Started talking to lady about stuff. I gotta say I was most unimpressed. I would ask certain questions and she would tell me to buy one of the DIANETICS books. Pfft...


Edited by Ginseng1 (02/12/08 07:18 PM)


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Offlinebodhiman777
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8014640 - 02/12/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh, well if you have sources i stand corrected. i too believe every video i see on youtube.


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... and so forth


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Offlinejizmaster

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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8014689 - 02/12/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I thought Yawninganus had a point so i had a look at the other side of the story, not that i know much about the scientologists are bad side. Guess i hadn't bothered because it seemed impossible to believe either side.

Anyway i read about the story and philosophy of it on wikipedia, the dianetics page and some of the really long scientology page. Was interesting and seemed reasonable as a theory (though i don't know about the whole operating thetan thing!).

Basically the idea is to remove undesireable unconscious thought processes, allowing the conscious mind to work more efficiently. Surely if the goal was to raise people's level of consciousness in the hope of benefiting society the best way to go about it would be to try and prove it works.

If it can't be proven, it shouldn't be claimed as any more than a theory. Claiming it as a miracle cure with no evidence seriously limits it's usefulness, as most people won't believe it.

Yawninganus, why does your father feel financially cheated? It's true then that they charge a shitload of money? I really don't understand why, what are they doing with it? What do they really need to do besides present the theory?


Edited by jizmaster (02/12/08 07:57 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8014813 - 02/12/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
Yawning Anus,

I'm sure most scientologists are dumb, but I really doubt they are dumb enough to believe in that Xenu alien shit.

Can you tell me what they actually believe in? Their website is really vague and the same with all their videos too.

*For the sake of this argument. Scientology seems a lot less threatening than christianity in my opinion. Who am I to tell others what to believe?




that is kind of hard to explain in such general terms. we would both be better off if I answered individual questions regarding aspects of belief/doctrine.
Xenu is, I believe, mentioned once (or atleast the story is.. maybe his name more within taht story) in all of the writings. While your average member wont ever even hear about Xenu... I think those that are exposed to the story take it about as seriously as someone saying the world is a billion trillion years old.
It is akin to the story of Noah's Ark, in that it is a venture into explaining pre history.
now, scientologists do believe that this solar system, and primarily earth are like a prison, or the loony bin of the universe... and that we have been unjustly isolated because we are abstract thinkers and artists and such.
it is really hard to explain it without going into a hundred different aspects of the doctrine because it all builds upon each other.

but even all of this is merely the "Genesis" (compared to christians, not the literal meaning) of Scientology, and isnt, to my knowledge, even applicable or have any real bearing on the analytical part of scientology.

Scientolgoy basically means, "the study of knowledge"... so much like psychiatry, they have broken down, step by minute step, the most basic things that seem like common sense. A major part of Scientology is based around retention of knowledge and full comprehension.

I dont even know where to begin with the question, so many places to start.

you know what, I will make a thread where anyone is free to ask me any questions they want about scientology beliefs. Chances are it will get derailed, I will be accused of trying to spread the religion, people will keep asking ridiculous, off topic questions... but oh well. I figure that lately there has been a lot of focus from the boards on it, so might as well if people are truly interested.

I cant start it right now, but maybe later tonight. if in the meantime, this causes other questions to arise, ask them here and I might be able to get around to them tonight.


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Offlinejizmaster

Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: jizmaster]
    #8014826 - 02/12/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe L Ron did have good intentions, if i was interested, and i am a bit now, i would download some of his books for free. Screw giving money to the COS, i really don't understand why they charge money, do the poor not deserve their help? If it worked surely people would pass it on to their friends and family. Seems a far more effective way of helping people.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: jizmaster]
    #8014893 - 02/12/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Im not sure, since I really havent checked out the prices of books, but I believe the satellite books like "learning how to learn" and "the ups and downs of life" (i think those are what they are called) are priced the same as any other self help book.

With the more "advanced" stuff, it is a primer to a course you take, so you cant really seperate the cost of the materials from the course... it would kind of be like saying your History book in college cost you 5k.

oddly enough, there are many scientolgoy business courses... in fact, my dad used a mangament model from one of those courses that he still firmly believes in. he is an optometrist and used it in his vision therapy firm.

but there are also scholarships and charities and free auditing. I dont know how much they are given out, but I do know one person that received a free course and another person that was absolved of all debt after a month long stay at narconon.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8015055 - 02/12/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Has no one noticed that Tom says literally NOTHING AT ALL? "We just gotta do it" "you're either in there or you're out of the arena" "when you know, you know" etc. He doesn't once identify what problems Scientology claims to have insight into or exactly what "helping people" involves. That video is 10 minutes of aimless trap flapping.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8015136 - 02/12/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhiman777 said:
oh, well if you have sources i stand corrected. i too believe every video i see on youtube.



i didn't say i believed everything on there,
but do you really think everything on there was made up?


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OfflineCosIsAcult
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Anonymous protest March 15th 08 [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8016323 - 02/13/08 03:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Is everyone protesting on March 15th? I am concerned that the Scientology church in New Orleans isnt getting enough attention. Anonymous doesnt even have it listed as a picket location on Project Chanology. This is the churches info:

3524 Canal St
New Orleans, LA 70119
(504) 484-3454


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8016929 - 02/13/08 10:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bmiles said:
Quote:

bodhiman777 said:
oh, well if you have sources i stand corrected. i too believe every video i see on youtube.



i didn't say i believed everything on there,
but do you really think everything on there was made up?




the only thing i believe in is my ability to doubt, but that's besides the point.
your questions run in circles and i have not the energy to keep spinning with you.
anyone who decides to protest the church of Scientology is constructing an evil that is only there for them to battle against.
that's fine, keep up with your silly little protest. its a freedom you're given by a country that wages "unjust" wars all over the world.

while you were all being noble protesting scientology, humans beings (you know.. the thing you are) died attempting to impose their ideals on an accepting world. good luck with your fight.

http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8018137 - 02/13/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you still didn't answer my question,
and i only asked one.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8018148 - 02/13/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

bodhiman, aren't you that guy on youtube who reached nirvana?


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8018566 - 02/13/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Using your attention to either focus on identifying with Scientology or identifying with attacking Scientology is a waste of attention. It's another religion. Religion = identification and dogma. Both of these things rob one of freedom if it is given our attention. Attacking it and participating in it are the same thing.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8018874 - 02/13/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hue,

1. How is religion any different from philosophy?

2. Can philosophy rob of us freedom? (a simple yes or no)

3. Can religion offer us freedom? (a simple yes or no)


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8019254 - 02/13/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the only thing i believe in is my ability to doubt, but that's besides the point


that was your answer


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8019288 - 02/13/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

wow, you can get out of just about any argument with that!
:thumbdown:


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8019375 - 02/13/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i'm sorry, i don't believe the vid. i wasn't there, i didn't see it happen, and those references were were in tiny blurry type. plus i'm a workin man, and i don't have time to investigate all those references.

anything that a small collective of members did under the guise of their chosen cult that harmed or killed people should be investigated, i'm not denying that. but a full scale protest of the entire religion seems to me like a desperate grab for media attention, and will fail in its goals. if pedophilia didn't tear down the catholic church, and blowing yourself up didn't outlaw islam, this will merely EMBOLDEN the scientologists.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8019387 - 02/13/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhiman777 said:
but a full scale protest of the entire religion seems to me like a desperate grab for media attention, and will fail in its goals. if pedophilia didn't tear down the catholic church, and blowing yourself up didn't outlaw islam, this will merely EMBOLDEN the scientologists.




very good point :thumbup:


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: bmiles]
    #8020769 - 02/14/08 01:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well i mean scientologist do lots of other crazy shit.

like a big part of it i forget the name, but the thing they use the e-meter for... i think its called auditing.

during the process of auditing, you're supposed to tell them about all the negative stuff that happens in your life... one of the things they do is the write all that shit down and put it in a file, and if you ever leave and criticize them they'll take all that shit and tell your neighbors and your boss and stuff.

Also supposedly when you reach the upper levels you get superpowers, like thats the whole point of auditing, getting to a higher state of being so you can control time and matter and shit.

During natural disasters they try and recruit people, and they intefere with mental health workers...

there is alot more stuff, i guess you've heard about they're tendency to sue like crazy.

i know in the 80's hubbard's wife and couple of his higher up followers were convicted of breaking into and bugging government offices... Canada sued them or something for "infiltrating government offices" or something like that...

it goes on and on... as a religion, or a set of self help techniques they're not terrible. the reason they deserve to be picked on is because they are hyper aggressive against people who try and criticize them, specifically people who were once part of the organization and try and spread information about the negative sides of scientology.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8020780 - 02/14/08 01:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh yeah and as far as the protests go...

this is different. except for a few protestfags we're doing this more to give physical expression to am egoless, faceless power than for the specific purpose of trying to harm scientology through media exposure.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8021071 - 02/14/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Great questions there. I will give you my opinion.
Quote:

1. How is religion any different from philosophy?




Religion demands that we follow it blindly cutting us off from free will and abdicating our individuality to the religions hierarchy. A philosophy can influence us without demanding that we identify completely with it. However, if you approach it as religion then you are back in the same boat...it becomes your religion.

Quote:

2. Can philosophy rob of us freedom? (a simple yes or no)




YES. If it is approached like religion it does.

Quote:

3. Can religion offer us freedom? (a simple yes or no)




NO. Saying "I am a Christian, Scientologist, Muslim, etc..." precludes this.

Note: These are only my opinions and I don't truly wish to tell anyone else what to think. I am just sharing my opinion. I am mostly full of shit, and listening to it could be hazardous to your health and sanity, BUT it works well enough for me.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021109 - 02/14/08 05:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I also would like to note that I think that attacking anything that is not a threat to your well being and health is just wasting energy. One can "not agree" without attacking. The end result of an attack is that you keep the subject of the attack in the scope of your attention. It then becomes a source of obsession and even fear. It becomes your new religion. Why would you want to stay focused on things that you do not like? Why would you care that other people do not share your preferences? Is it not more productive to focus our attention on that which promotes our well being, therefore surrounding ourselves with such things? Just my measly 2 cents...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021132 - 02/14/08 06:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i'm not sure thats correct.

if you're crossing the street, ignoring cars and thinking of kittens doesn't make the cars any less dangerous

ignoring a cold or cancer doesn't make it get better (though ignoring it may make you feel better)

ignoring starving kids in africa doesn't make them less starving... and so on.

some things in life you have work with, through or around, even if its a small part, or takes a long time.

not that i think scientology is one of those things, i already listed my own reason for being excited about the protests.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8021207 - 02/14/08 07:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think you read my post well.
Quote:

attacking anything that is not a threat to your well being and health



Diseases and cars ARE threats to your well being. I would NOT ignore them, but I would NOT try to attack a car. This would be irrational and dangerous. A disease that was attacking me would have to be dealt with.

How do starving children have to do with attacking things? Is attacking Scientology like helping starving children in some way. Do these children need violence (attack is a violence) to be fed? I don't understand your point.

I never said that some things did not have to be worked around, but that does not mean to attack it.

I think it curious that you feel that Scientology is not worthy of tolerance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021701 - 02/14/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hue.

Not all religions demand that you follow them blindly. Religion is just an organized form of philosophy.

How is following the philosophy of Nietzsche any different from the Christians who follow the 10 commandments? There is no difference at all.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8021773 - 02/14/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
How is following the philosophy of Nietzsche any different from the Christians who follow the 10 commandments? There is no difference at all.




what


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8021801 - 02/14/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

aside from the discrepancies in the philosophies themselves.

you are still following/incorporating a belief into your life.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8021818 - 02/14/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Not all religions demand that you follow them blindly.




These religions are? I don't know of any. I know many people who give only lip service to the religion, but that is just being a hypocrite and it is not following a religion. Religions demand action of some sort. All of them do. I didn't expect agreement here. People as a whole do not like freedom. The very fact that there are people here attacking Scientologists for ideological reasons demonstrates that.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021839 - 02/14/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I also would like to note that I think that attacking anything that is not a threat to your well being and health is just wasting energy. One can "not agree" without attacking. The end result of an attack is that you keep the subject of the attack in the scope of your attention. It then becomes a source of obsession and even fear. It becomes your new religion. Why would you want to stay focused on things that you do not like? Why would you care that other people do not share your preferences? Is it not more productive to focus our attention on that which promotes our well being, therefore surrounding ourselves with such things? Just my measly 2 cents...




I'll take your 2 cents to anyone else's dollar any day.:thumbup: Great post.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Icelander]
    #8021850 - 02/14/08 10:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am an expert at attacking things irrationally. Coming to this conclusion was a no brainer for me...it just took time to see it.


--------------------
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021857 - 02/14/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nietzsche's philosophy instructs against blind following, so a blind follower of Nietzsche's philosophy would be a paradoxically inattentive reader of philosophy.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8021985 - 02/14/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Nietzsche's philosophy instructs against blind following, so a blind follower of Nietzsche's philosophy would be a paradoxically inattentive reader of philosophy.




So a non-blind follower of Nietzsche would be an attentive reader of philosophy?

I think the word religion scares people, it has some negative connontation to it. Give Schoepenhauer's philosophy an apartment where people meet up on Friday nights to discuss his works and you got yourself a religion pretty much. It's people congregating and discussing a philosophy which if seems beneficial to their lives, will apply the principles and ideologies of it.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: appleorange]
    #8022152 - 02/14/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My only point is most religions (Christianity in particular) demand blind following. Most philosophers (Nietzsche in particular) do not.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8022189 - 02/14/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Religions "demands" just as much as philosophy does.
Following blindly comes from the follower, not the followed.
Neither religion nor philosophy are actually making that choice, the individual does and they have NO other power than that given by those who choose to follow them. :wink:


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8022698 - 02/14/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've never seen a crusade of righteous Nietzscheans...


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8022715 - 02/14/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We're not talking about crusades in the restricted sense, we're talking about followers.
For that I'll give you a short example: the followers of Pythagoras.

Here's some info:
http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/pyth1.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12587b.htm


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8024312 - 02/14/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How do starving children have to do with attacking things? Is attacking Scientology like helping starving children in some way. Do these children need violence (attack is a violence) to be fed? I don't understand your point.





the connection was children starving in africa doesn't directly effect me. people being harassed or killed by scientology doesn't directly effect me.
Ignoring starving kids in africa doesn't make them stop starving.
ignoring scientology doesn't make it stop harassing people.

in fact if anything ignoring it and focusing on something else worsens the problem.

generally speaking the "attacks" on scientology you're suggesting are philosophically or spiritually pointless, are generally speaking the physical acts of spreading information about the negative aspects of scientology, often the very information they are physically working to conceal...

generally speaking i would say that ignoring information about potential threats isn't a good way to attain peace or health, a car doesn't actually become a threat up until a certain point. without consistent monitoring of the situation the moment at which the car becomes a threat cannot be accurately judged. hence the example of a car.

i don't really care one way or another about scientology as i've stated. i think they're out of body stuff is really cool, but also in this thread i've given the reasons why OTHER people feel scientology needs to be "attacked" (information spread about them). basically is they're not afraid to ruin lives if people try and give a full view of the scope of their activities.

also i disagree with your assertion that points of focus become obsessions or fears.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8025801 - 02/15/08 02:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Please learn to direct your answers next time, it's a simple thing to do so we know who's talking to who. :grin:

Quote:

in fact if anything ignoring it and focusing on something else worsens the problem.




Really? How? :strokebeard:
If everyone would be ignoring anyone else's matters, then we would live in a "live and let live" mentality. Sounds perfect to me. :thumbup:

Quote:

generally speaking the "attacks" on scientology you're suggesting are philosophically or spiritually pointless, are generally speaking the physical acts of spreading information about the negative aspects of scientology, often the very information they are physically working to conceal...




I think that what he was trying to say was that all the problems this world has are the result of intolerance. Attacking intolerance (or anything else) is still intolerance. :wink:
What constructive results can come out of this? :confused:

Quote:

generally speaking i would say that ignoring information about potential threats isn't a good way to attain peace or health, a car doesn't actually become a threat up until a certain point. without consistent monitoring of the situation the moment at which the car becomes a threat cannot be accurately judged. hence the example of a car.




There's a HUGE difference between staying informed and taking action against a particular information.
What he was trying to say was that since Scientology doesn't present any direct threat to him, it would be mindless of him to start attacking it.
And if it would present a direct threat to him, then it wouldn't be called attack, but defense (if he decided to take action against that threat). Can you note the fine distinction? :tongue:

Quote:

also i disagree with your assertion that points of focus become obsessions or fears.




Attacks are the result of fear.
This is simple stuff here. :shrug:


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8026544 - 02/15/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i'm still going to disagree and say attacks are not the right word, in fact its a very strange word choice. like i said, most of the protesters i've talked to were just trying to spread negative truths, there is no one going around physically harming scientology members or property.

i would disagree that aggressive behavior is always the result of fear. I guess the argument could be made that the root is always fear, but alot of people engage in aggressive behavior because dominance leads to personal benefit. Also i would say people "attack" other people just out of general anger and spite.

I understand that scientology isn't at present a direct threat against him. It is to some people though (in the eyes of those who says its an evil cult). If he feels no kinship or community with the people that scientology harms then it would make sense that worry about scientology would bring him no benifit.
Proteting scientology is for most people (i know there are some ex-scientologists and scientology family members who protest) a public work, helping to protect everyone.

If seriously doubt there is any one thing that you can say all the problems of the world are the result of.
i think intolerance has many benifits, both for the person and the community.

The good that can come out of protesting is perhaps you see someone that was thinking of joining scientology. you give him a pamphlet that tells the stories of people who have had negative experiences with scientology, and so the person decides not to join.


Also, in the theoretical realms. its not impossible to imagine that left unchecked, one day you could be learning dianetics in college instead of psychology or (fuck, pharmocapathy isn't a word, and i can not for the life of me remeber the real word for this).

edit: i remembered, it was pharmacology.


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Edited by truekimbo2 (02/15/08 10:24 AM)


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8026722 - 02/15/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i'm still going to disagree and say attacks are not the right word, in fact its a very strange word choice. like i said, most of the protesters i've talked to were just trying to spread negative truths, there is no one going around physically harming scientology members or property.




Disinformation is a way of attack.

Quote:

i would disagree that aggressive behavior is always the result of fear. I guess the argument could be made that the root is always fear, but alot of people engage in aggressive behavior because dominance leads to personal benefit. Also i would say people "attack" other people just out of general anger and spite.




Yes, but like even you admitted, the root is still fear.
Where are you trying to get with all that?

Quote:

I understand that scientology isn't at present a direct threat against him. It is to some people though (in the eyes of those who says its an evil cult). If he feels no kinship or community with the people that scientology harms then it would make sense that worry about scientology would bring him no benifit.
Proteting scientology is for most people (i know there are some ex-scientologists and scientology family members who protest) a public work, helping to protect everyone.




Other people that are supposedly harmed have done this to themselves and will (or will not) learn their lessons. Why should I or anyone else want to "help" them? How do we know what we're indeed helping them? Can we know what's best for others? Can we assume this kind of responsibility? I choose not to and I believe that it is a huge error to think that you know what's best for others and act upon that.

Quote:

If seriously doubt there is any one thing that you can say all the problems of the world are the result of.
i think intolerance has many benifits, both for the person and the community.




Such as?

Quote:

The good that can come out of protesting is perhaps you see someone that was thinking of joining scientology. you give him a pamphlet that tells the stories of people who have had negative experiences with scientology, and so the person decides not to join.




And how do you KNOW that you helped him this way? :rolleyes: 

Quote:

Also, in the theoretical realms. its not impossible to imagine that left unchecked, one day you could be learning dianetics in college instead of psychology or (fuck, pharmocapathy isn't a word, and i can not for the life of me remeber the real word for this).

edit: i remembered, it was pharmacology.




Confusing pharmacology with psychology? :what: :lol: :smirk:
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, right?
If you do, I promise to take it back, in the moment you'll start making some sense. :yesnod:


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Edited by MushroomTrip (02/15/08 11:12 AM)


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8026967 - 02/15/08 11:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Confusing pharmacology with psychology? :what: :lol: :smirk:
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, right?
If you do, I promise to take it back, in the moment you'll start making some sense. :yesnod:




i didn't confuse psychology with pharmacology.  i just couldn't think of the word.
scientology is against those two things, thats why i listed grouped them.

i guess since you weren't aware those that scientology campaigns against those two, you confused my reason for grouping them.

Quote:

And how do you KNOW that you helped him this way?




I don't think that i can 100% say beforehand or afterwards that i've definitely helped someone, the webs of cause and effect are greater than anyone can fully plot out i think.  I do what i think is right within the scope of reason and hope for the best, i think when it comes to helping people thats pretty much all i can do.

Quote:


Other people that are supposedly harmed have done this to themselves and will (or will not) learn their lessons. Why should I or anyone else want to "help" them? How do we know what we're indeed helping them? Can we know what's best for others? Can we assume this kind of responsibility? I choose not to and I believe that it is a huge error to think that you know what's best for others and act upon that.




my response is the same as the one directly above.  i would say that i am willing to take that responsibility though, since i have very little political or social power i'm not really worried about doing damage to society if i'm wrong.

Quote:

es, but like even you admitted, the root is still fear.
Where are you trying to get with all that?




i said it could be argued the root is fear.  what i was trying to get at is that although most of a person's actions come from a limited set of of subconscious rules, in practice the simple world of subconscious  reasoning i often closed off from us, and we have to accept that to the conscious mind, there is an interaction between multiple layers of complex emotion and thought. 
  i don't think that in dealing with the world its effective to only deal with the deepest of the subconscious impulses.  so i would say that when interacting with other people, treating all attack as the a result of fear would not be correct. 
 

also, i'm not sure how saying that all attack comes from fear links up with me stating that objects of focus don't as a rule become fears and obsessions?

Quote:

Disinformation is a way of attack.




i would agree, but i didn't say the protesters were spreading false information, i said they were spreading TRUE information of a negative nature. 

not to say that the protesters aren't spreading dis-info, but their goal is to spread real info.

like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment.  this policy killed someone.

is me telling you that an attack on scientology?


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027429 - 02/15/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

scientology has nothing against psychology really.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027595 - 02/15/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i didn't confuse psychology with pharmacology. i just couldn't think of the word.
scientology is against those two things, thats why i listed grouped them.

i guess since you weren't aware those that scientology campaigns against those two, you confused my reason for grouping them.




From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against.
I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two. :lol:

Quote:

I don't think that i can 100% say beforehand or afterwards that i've definitely helped someone, the webs of cause and effect are greater than anyone can fully plot out i think. I do what i think is right within the scope of reason and hope for the best, i think when it comes to helping people thats pretty much all i can do.




So did Hitler.
He thought he was doing right. Everybody who act their will upon others or try to change them think it's right.
The problem is that the views on "right" differ from person to person, so how can you really tell which ons is the right from the rights? :nut:
Yours, right? :smirk:
In a measure yes: that you keep it to yourself and let others live as they wish.
Wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex not because you are more aware than the rest. :crazy2:

Quote:

my response is the same as the one directly above. i would say that i am willing to take that responsibility though, since i have very little political or social power i'm not really worried about doing damage to society if i'm wrong.




Ahhh so you don't really care about the well being of anybody (just as I suspected and this confirms my suspicions). :lol:
And the only reason why you would have second thoughts about changing the world is if you knew you would officially be held responsible. :smirk:
This is getting interesting...

Quote:

i said it could be argued the root is fear. what i was trying to get at is that although most of a person's actions come from a limited set of of subconscious rules, in practice the simple world of subconscious reasoning i often closed off from us, and we have to accept that to the conscious mind, there is an interaction between multiple layers of complex emotion and thought.




Yes, I know you said that.
This is exactly what you said the last time too, only with other words.
Yes our minds are complex, so is the universe and the solar system and blah blah blah.
Let's cut to the chase because this is all useless poetry.
Do they or do they not result from fear?
How does fear improve our lives?
From my own observations (supported by psychological observations), fear is an impediment for living life consciously, balanced and healthy.

Quote:

i don't think that in dealing with the world its effective to only deal with the deepest of the subconscious impulses. so i would say that when interacting with other people, treating all attack as the a result of fear would not be correct.




And why is that?
Why do you think it's not good to deal with the deepest subconscious thoughts?
How do you know that we even got to the bottom? Could it also be true that the subconscious has MANY layers as well?
Analyzing the subconscious doesn't exclude analyzing the conscious, super conscious and so on. On the contrary, it is more indicated to analyze all of them if it is in our intention to know what the fuck is happening with us. :grin:

Quote:

i would agree, but i didn't say the protesters were spreading false information, i said they were spreading TRUE information of a negative nature.




Is is STILL a form of attack, even if so.
I am not defending Scientology but I am also not defending any other dogma.

Quote:

not to say that the protesters aren't spreading dis-info, but their goal is to spread real info.




What's the psychological difference between them and those who want to spread "info" because they think they are on a mission received from a higher power?

Quote:

like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment. this policy killed someone.




The policy killed someone because they didn't carefully read the wavier, not because they were forced to sign it against they conscious will.
Can you realize the difference between those two?

Quote:

is me telling you that an attack on scientology?




It could be considered an attempt to attack Scientology if I considered joining it.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8027610 - 02/15/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.cchr.org/index/5276/5329/6478/

i notice they made a documentary called "psychiatry: an industry of death"


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027628 - 02/15/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
http://www.cchr.org/index/5276/5329/6478/

i notice they made a documentary called "psychiatry: an industry of death"




Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against.
I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two. :lol:





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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027664 - 02/15/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

From what I understood Scientology even uses some psychological techniques, and it is psychiatry that that have something against.
I hope there's no need for for me to explain the difference between those two.




no you don't need me to explain the difference. your understanding is incomplete scientology is against both.    I think in fact that the American psychological association has condemned scientology.

Quote:

So did Hitler.
He thought he was doing right. Everybody who act their will upon others or try to change them think it's right.
The problem is that the views on "right" differ from person to person, so how can you really tell which ons is the right from the rights? :nut:
Yours, right? :smirk:
In a measure yes: that you keep it to yourself and let others live as they wish.
Wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex not because you are more aware than the rest. :crazy2:




But what about all the people that have helped the world?  ghandi, martin luther, blah blah blah.
your assumption wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex is rediculous, and a good end to this conversation.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027684 - 02/15/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

no you don't need me to explain the difference. your understanding is incomplete scientology is against both. I think in fact that the American psychological association has condemned scientology.




Yes I do. :grin:
If they American psychological association is against them, it doesn't mean that they don't apply psychological techniques or that they are also at war with psychology.
Psychology, the human mind, is no one and the same with this association.

Quote:

But what about all the people that have helped the world? ghandi, martin luther, blah blah blah.




What about them? :smirk:

Quote:

your assumption wanting to help people comes from a messianic complex is rediculous, and a good end to this conversation.




Of course it is ridiculous, it is ridiculous to ed a conversation because of that, and also a nice cop out for excusing your inability to set things straight. :wink:


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8027715 - 02/15/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

it is ridiculous to end a conversation because of that




you're probably right, but honestly i don't think this conversation is fruitful.

i don't think my justification for protesting scientology really matters to you, and it seems like we're going to in too many directions at once. i feel we can't find common ground to synthesize an opinoin. it has nothing to do with an inability to set things straight


on the psychology thing, the below quote was taken from the website i linked to (an organization founded and supported by scientology) and is current.

"Understanding this fraudulent diagnostic premise, we can see why psychiatry and psychology, entrusted with billions of dollars to eradicate the problems of the mind, have created and perpetuated them."


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027734 - 02/15/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

you're probably right, but honestly i don't think this conversation is fruitful.

i don't think my justification for protesting scientology really matters to you, and it seems like we're going to in too many directions at once. i feel we can't find common ground to synthesize an opinoin. it has nothing to do with an inability to set things straight




Of course it doesn't "matter" to me, it is a simple debate and my life is not depending on it or its result. :smirk:

Quote:

on the psychology thing, the below quote was taken from the website i linked to (an organization founded and supported by scientology) and is current.

"Understanding this fraudulent diagnostic premise, we can see why psychiatry and psychology, entrusted with billions of dollars to eradicate the problems of the mind, have created and perpetuated them."




Yes, that's exactly why I said that an institution is NOT in any way one and the same with the human psyche. :wink:


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8027773 - 02/15/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

like alot of people don't know you have to sign a waiver at some point in your auditing, that says they can hold you against your will for an indefinite period of time and refuse to give you medical treatment. this policy killed someone.





sorry, but that isnt true.

Im really trying not to get in this discussion.... but I am reading it intently.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8027785 - 02/15/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh okay. yeah in that sense they're actually very big on psychology...

i meant that they disagree with the modern theories of psychology... I don't see how they could disagree with the techniques of psychological study, but i think they prefer their own.

hmm... now that i think of it, they say that they're an alternative to psychology but i wonder if they do any scientific studies... i think it may all just be based on the original conjecture of L. Ron Hubbard but i could wrong about that.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027828 - 02/15/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sorry, but that isnt true.




i could be wrong about it being a normal part of auditing. under what conditions are you required to sign this waiver?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta/scn/scans/Introspection-Release.html

yawning: don't hold this thread against me... honestly i wouldn't protest scientology if anon wasn't telling me to do it. i think that many of the ideas and techniques are fascinating and i can imagine that they might be effective in bringing people happiness.
i think that except for their crazy team of lawyers, most of the complaints against scientology are probably identical to complaints that would be made against any intensive spiritual practice.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8027846 - 02/15/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

as for the psychology thing, scientology doesnt have nearly as big of a problem with it as they do psychiatry.
now, they arent fans of the field of psychology, but CCHR was craeted to end human rights violations done in the name of mental health.
Psychology, taken literally as the study of the mind, isnt directly harmful, but scientologists belive practicing psychiatry is.
now recently psychologists have started lobbying (and might even be able to now) to prescribe drugs... so when that happens, then yes, psychologists will be up there next to psychiatry.
but for now, they only disagree with it, and are maybe miffed that it gets federal funding to indoctrinate people with a fundamentally flawed theory parading as science.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027947 - 02/15/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
Quote:

sorry, but that isnt true.




i could be wrong about it being a normal part of auditing. under what conditions are you required to sign this waiver?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta/scn/scans/Introspection-Release.html



it isnt something that everyone has to sign... only if you have what most people would call a psychotic break. You are isolated and supervised constantly.
It is really no different than going into a psychiatric hospital and doing the same thing.
in fact, Im willing to bet that the waivers and release forms on voluntary admission are quite similar.

introspection rundown is actually very rare, and like anything in scientology, it isnt mandatory, but you might be given a goldenrod from an ethics officer and not allowed to be part of the church anymore.
notice that it is 2001 at the bottom of the page, which makes sense that after the lisa mcpherson ordeal, they needed a more serious binding contract to legally protect themselves.
it is also a measure so taht government officials and psychiatrists cannot intrude upon what scientology believes to be a very delicate procedure.

Quote:

yawning: don't hold this thread against me... honestly i wouldn't protest scientology if anon wasn't telling me to do it. i think that many of the ideas and techniques are fascinating and i can imagine that they might be effective in bringing people happiness.
i think that except for their crazy team of lawyers, most of the complaints against scientology are probably identical to complaints that would be made against any intensive spiritual practice.




i dont hold anything against anyone for shit like this. Im not here to change anyones minds about scientology. its your choice to be disgusted with them or not.
I find certain things they do to be ridiculous, but i personally do not see anything dangerous about them.


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Re: Anonymous vs Scientology [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8028629 - 02/15/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah... sorry. there was a news clip from the same website that mentions that the waiver is voluntary for those who think they may need it (a scientologist P.R. person gave that info)


i was reading your other post... i agree that the game of telephone is not always the best way to learn about thing.

i have heard elsewhere that everyone who joins is required to sign that contract, next time i see that mentioned i'll correct it.


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