Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: Diploid]
    #7095958 -

figgus: oh, I have only listened to ann coulter, never actually seen her. And I never would have gotten Khan.

Diploid: only in Thailand.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: daytripper23]
    #7095968 -

daytripper23 said:
The best way to get along is to make believe were all exactly the same.


Yeah. I would be the last person in the world to argue that just because something, if true, has terrible implications, it must not be true. But I still think it's wise to keep the implications in mind.

So, I guess we're going to have to admit someday that Francis Galton may have known what he was bullshitting about, huh?

Otherwise we can all join the old T.D. Lysenko camp and pretend genetics is a myth, simply because it's a nasty notion.

I don't know, I suspect that we will learn the genes have an effect, but an effect nowhere near the scope of that we will attribute to them. I think there is too much evidence for the supremacy of environmental factors. Genetics is a great "head start", but it's not the end of the game. Mushroom cultivation teaches us that lesson very well.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7095974 -

Quote:
oh, I have only listened to ann coulter, never actually seen her.


Ahh, then you still have your libido. You are one of the lucky ones.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7095997 -

didnt we go over this topic in such detail over diploids thread regarding intelligence across ethnic groups and cultures?

Wouldnt intelligence need to be defined before jumping to the conclusion that A=B?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: Diploid]
    #7095999 -

Diploid said:
your post which indirectly accuses me of pedophilia and shower peeing

You mean you don't? :confused:


I actually use the fact that I am clever enough to pee in the shower as an indication of my superior intelligence.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096009 -

This just in! Scientists report that peeing in the shower is possibly linked to genetic factors!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7096029 -

psilocyberin said:
didnt we go over this topic in such detail over diploids thread regarding intelligence across ethnic groups and cultures?

Wouldnt intelligence need to be defined before jumping to the conclusion that A=B?


Only generally. You can't really define anything so abstract as intelligence in absolute terms, but if you skip the moralistic and relativistic arguments, you can come up with some decent experimental indicators. For instance, I don't think you can take an effective social relativism stance against the use of say, blocks to reconstruct something seen in an image, or fundamental logic questions. These are still not a measurement of innate intelligence, though, only a function of both innate potential and acquired intelligence.

We can test the intelligence of rats. We can test the intelligence of people. Nothing is perfect, but there are some guidelines. I think they should just be on the lookout for correlation between this gene and, say, the average European-background genome. That, to me, would be a big red flag saying, "This may be based on subjective concepts of intelligence," and perhaps even, "This may involve an active agenda."


I think the best way to approach a study like this is to make absolutely no assumption about the things it says are linked to said genes. For instance, if it says, "People with Gene A can reproduce lego castles with 200% the efficiency and accuracy of people without Gene A," then we have an interesting fact. It doesn't necessarily mean these people with Gene A are going to be the best philosophers or social scientists, but it might mean they have a knack for engineering. This would keep us from drawing unreasonable conclusions from the information.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096046 -

well, the term intelligence is merely a label we put on "smart" actions or thoughts. If we labelled the act of masturbating and shitting in your hand and throwing it at others "intelligent" then monkeys would be the smartest species on earth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7096061 -

Right. But you're making something that's not incredibly subjective into something that is. There is definitely some subjectivity involved, but you're overblowing it. See above: if the study can show that people with this gene are more capable of X, then we can draw our own conclusions as to whether X is an indication of intelligence. If X is a certain thing that most people agree to indicate intelligence, then we have something, even if you choose to refuse to believe that X (say, the ability to construct something, or infer one fact from another) is a sign of intelligence.

Yes, all words are fluid, but yes, even fluid words have commonly-accepted meanings.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096066 -

With a study like this, though, keep in mind that correlation is NOT causation. It may simply be that people who tend to have that gene belong to some ethnic group that statistically tends to have other characteristics beneficial to the promotion of "intelligence" (e.g. money for education).


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096089 -

but it is completely subjective. If we currently agree that constructing fortresses out of lego blocks is an intelligent thing, that doesnt it make it some universal fact or constant... all it does is reinforce that agreement when that person makes an architectual firm.

but lets take lego block building again... how does one objectively measure which construction is the "most intelligent" design? do we ignore the aesthetic building, the one where all the colors match up and are uniform? or would we go for the one that resists wind the most? or the one that regulates its internal temperature the best? the tallest? the one that can withstand a big earthquake?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7096147 -

First of all, I did not say "the one who builds the best building," because that adds another level of subjectivity. I said the one who best recreates an existing design. Accuracy of reproduction is an objective goal. Please think these things through, that's very simple.

We clearly agree that definitions of intelligence vary. However, a plain comparison can be made between one human (or animal) and the next. While some comparisons will have ambiguous results, others will not. I think the key to intelligence has something to do with the ability to adapt successfully to new situations. I'm not talking about social or environmental situations, but rather the tasks that they present. Construction using blocks is one form of task that requires adaptation and fluid thought to complete. Another is the use of words, which are another sort of tool. Another is the use of abstract ideas, which are yet another sort of tool. Another is the use of... well, who knows? That's what makes intelligence a general concept. It can refer to many, many things, but in the end, it's all about a generalization. You may not like generalizations, but they are useful and, when used well, "generally" accurate. That is their purpose. Sorry.

Now, let's use a plain litmus test, shall we?

Who is the most intelligent of these two fictional characters?:

A) Corky, kid with Down's Syndrome from 80s dramedy Life Goes On
or
B) Hugh Laurie's character in House

Now, you can come up with some bullshit relativistic notion of A being brighter because, say, he might wipe himself more efficiently on the john, or perhaps that he is more emotionally intelligent because he doesn't wantonly berate others, but by a WIDELY-ACCEPTABLE definition, A will be less intelligent than B. The same can be applied to real-life individuals, but fiction is useful because we can see characters more candidly on television than in real life, and we both (perhaps) know the characters involved.

Words, because they are a tool used to communicate with others have common, basic meanings, which while they may occasionally differ, also carry some common ground.

Your argument, while I understand and respect its basis, is for all intents and purposes bullshit. Yes, we get it, everything is subjective. Whoop-dee-shit, so fucking deep. Get over it, people. Sorry to be blunt, but it gets old. We both know there is a common ground of objective basis when it comes to intelligence, even though there is also a subjective element as well.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096186 -

I completely agree with you, but when you want to claim something in the name of science, it needs to be objective and pin down the subjective things so assholes like me dont come in withthe relativist argument.
Im not saying that intelligence doesnt exist. Everyone can mention some person that they would consider extremely intelligent and we would find that almost all of those people have the same characteristics.

I guess my entire bitch would be that to label it as scientific means that it is objective... but if you want to say that Feynman is smarter than Archie bunker, then yeah, Im not going to say "well, that is subjective."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7096210 -

Well, the point of science is that it doesn't say "We have pinned down a genetic basis for intelligence!" It says, "We have determined that people with Gene A do X, Y, Z more effectively."

Then, people who make forum posts say: "They have pinned down a genetic basis for intelligence!" Except in this case they also fuck it up by basically saying that "most people are stupider than most people", but we have already gone over that.

But yeah, so the fault always lies with those who interpret the science. Fun, huh? :smile:


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Edited by figgusfiddus (06/26/07 08:52 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7096278 -

Quote:
Then, people who make forum posts say: "They have pinned down a genetic basis for intelligence!" Except in this case they also fuck it up by basically saying that "most people are stupider than most people", but we have already gone over that.



Can't we go over it again? Oh, please, please, please!


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: trendal]
    #7096567 -

I sense a resurgence in eugenics approaching.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: Silversoul]
    #7096679 -

Eugenics in its original incarnation--read up on Galton--was a pseudoscientific but mostly harmless trend, based on what was called "positive eugenics", that is, encouraging people with "good" genes to mate with one another, rather than "negative eugenics", which was based on preventing the mating of people with "bad" genes.

"Negative eugenics" is most commonly identified with the Holocaust, even though Hitler had no scientific (or even really pseudoscientific) reasoning behind the notion that Jews were genetically inferior. Of course, those who were "obviously" genetically inferior--the infirm, the retarded--were often castrated, which is a classic example of negative eugenics.

Either way, it's based on the premise that the human race somehow has to improve itself through state-sponsored artificial selection. Improvement is based on abstract, subjective principles, and is of course morally reprehensible if it occurs by force.

I recall there was a series of Heinlein books which involved a secret society whose purpose, through "positive" eugenics, was to increase the human life-span through the cultivation of long-lived individuals. Interesting stuff. Naturally, it worked--in fiction. Forcing people to breed is a violation of their rights, but encouraging them to breed in certain ways through financial incentives, as was the case in the Heinlein novels, would be perfectly morally safe, at least by most interpretations of our societal standards. Any distaste that would appear toward that notion is something I do believe to derive from the history of the Holocaust and other cases of genocide, which would not technically have anything in common with the original premise behind eugenics. Scientifically-implemented eugenics would have nothing to do with modern conceptions of race, except wherever genes deemed desirable would appear with more or less frequency by ethnicity.

Eugenics technically only means "good genes", and is connotated to mean "the reinforcement of good genes" through some system or another. I think it's an interesting idea, since an intelligently-designed artificial selection system for humans has never been undertaken, but it is certainly fraught with moral complications, most of them deriving from its obvious incompatability with egalitarianism.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: trendal]
    #7096891 -

I'm guessing that at least 80% of people will believe that they belong to this elite 10%.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans [Re: trendal]
    #7096993 -

Huh? That article did not mention intellegence.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A genetic basis to get everyone's panties in a bunch. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7097169 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Huh? That article did not mention intelligence.


You are right....!    :lol:
It mentions that they may have found  "genetic changes in humans that may have influenced brain evolution"....

SSsssooooo, what is a "brain evolution" exactly....?
How often it time does one of these "brain evolutions" take place....?
:flowstone:  :igor:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* assessing intelligence Phencyclidine 1,414 16 05/25/04 03:00 AM
by Phencyclidine
* Spiritual Debate: Which is more necessary for humanity.... tekramrepus 1,816 18 06/17/03 05:22 PM
by ViBrAnT
* genetic engineering and raising kids. truekimbo2 2,403 18 06/09/04 01:11 PM
by Anonymous
* Humanity Evolving, need help? johnnyfive 1,237 9 01/09/03 04:39 AM
by johnnyfive
* Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans
( 1 2 all )		 Traveller 3,967 33 12/10/05 01:58 PM
by kotik
* The Seven Steps of Human Evolution
( 1 2 3 all )		 ShroomismM 6,778 42 05/23/09 01:39 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* The Seven Steps of Human Evolution
( 1 2 all )		 Anonymous 5,357 20 01/22/03 10:54 AM
by Shroomism
* DNA and Inferior Humans
( 1 2 all )		 EvilGir 3,025 24 12/20/03 01:13 AM
by chemkid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,892 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 19 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.