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Total freedom.
    #6317849 -

Is freedom total awareness? According to Don Juan it is. This goal of the "new seers" is very different from the sorcerers of the past tradition. A warrior is preparing himself for awareness and total freedom.

"Only a bell and a bird break the stillness...
It seems that the two talk with the setting sun.
Golden colored silence, the afternoon is made of crystals.
A roving purity sways the cool trees, and beyond all that,
a transparent river dreams that trampling over pearls
it breaks loose
and flows into infinity."
______________________________________

Don Juan and Don Genaro came to my side and looked at me with an expression of surprise.
..."What are we really doing Don Juan?" I asked. "Is it possible that warriors are only preparing themselves for death?"
"No way," he said, gently patting my shoulder. " Warriors prepare themselves to be aware, and full awareness comes to them only when there is no more self-importance left in them. Only when they are nothing do they become everything."

The warriors work centers around decreasing his or her massive self obsession. We are all (as far as I can see) in the same boat here. Those who say they have little or none of it are the worse cases. To be self obsessed is to obscure all things that make up eternity and encase oneself in a cozy (and boring) little reflective single view, as if looking in a mirror and describing that as everything there is to see. Eternity is too much for most of us. The human form is a cozy cocoon that we strive to remain encased in. To face eternity alone is the ultimate goal of the "new seers". Humanity will carry on without them. They are no longer concerned with the ups and downs of the human cultural program.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318317 -

Sounds like an ideal.

Live life and fuck it, then you will be free. Know that the only boundries that exist are the ones you choose to stay entraped by. Don't stress man, there is no cosmic battle going on with eternity at stake. Don't allow egotistical maniacs who believe they are special manipulate you into being a drone. You see one time I went on a trip with cloning,(this was when I was all religious sort of) and I thought about god, and how he is always trying to mold us, how our goal in life is to be like god, a god clone. You see once god is dead, gone what have you, he is selfish, he still whishes to exist, but how? If he can get us to be his drone clones. Our parents do it to us ( "Oh My God Im Becomeing My Mother!"), our friends do it to us, and egotistical maniacs are the most sadistic.

Be alive, partake, party, Do not hold back, fear nothing, know that you are beutifull, everything is going as planed, live life and fuck it!

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318322 -

This sounds like Extreme Being to me.  :wink:

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318323 -

"when shall I be free?
when I shall cease to be..."
-Shpongle

no "total freedom" until death - of the ego, at least, if not of the bodily prison itself


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Lion]
    #6318330 -

It seems unrealistic to believe that we can function without an ego. Why not cultivate a flexible, helpful ego structure? The hostile intention of killing the ego is likely to create an intimate enemy.

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Veritas]
    #6318346 -

Veritas said:
It seems unrealistic to believe that we can function without an ego. Why not cultivate a flexible, helpful ego structure? The hostile intention of killing the ego is likely to create an intimate enemy.

when the ego ceases to exist in the present moment... when one can relate to no sense of self that is separate from Self, total freedom is achieved (in my experience). i'm not talking about waging war on the ego - surely a benign ego structure is beneficial in this life. but with such a structure one may never be absolutely free, because ego implies separateness, and separateness implies boundaries and limitations


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Lion]
    #6318355 -

But does the ego actually cease to exist whilst we are embodied, or does it just take a coffee break?  :wink:

I think that we notice the limitations of our established ego structure when we temporarily suspend its' function, and this can provide us with motivation to cultivate a more flexible, cooperative everyday relationship with this structure.

I have serious doubts as to the possibility (or desireability) of eliminating the ego, however.

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Veritas]
    #6318387 -

Veritas said:
But does the ego actually cease to exist whilst we are embodied, or does it just take a coffee break?  :wink:

I think that we notice the limitations of our established ego structure when we temporarily suspend its' function, and this can provide us with motivation to cultivate a more flexible, cooperative everyday relationship with this structure.

I have serious doubts as to the possibility (or desireability) of eliminating the ego, however.

"cease to exist" was a bad turn of phrase, I agree.  I've had the ego - well, "I've", that's a bit ridiculous isn't it? - take a long drive to a 24-hour Starbucks in upper Mongolia, though...

total freedom, to me, is the ability to do anything and be everything - what else could that 'total' mean?  and one cannot be everything while one is busy being someone.  as for freedom after this life... pure conjecture is all I've got to offer...  :tongue:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318392 -

We cant live without limitations and we can't live with them. We are part of the whole and separated from it. We were born into duality but we may leave them behind by finding the truth beyond that.
Once achieved, pure existence with a grain of intent makes the way, imho. But we always and never are free, while our spirit resists (edit: damned, wrong word, I meant 'resides') in our body.

A good picture is oneself floating in superspace with freedom in all dimensions and directions. One is absolute free, but one has nothing to grasp, nothing to move.
Once we get ground under our feet, we gain one way of moving around, left, right, forward and back, so we get more freedom through relations for our movement, but in the same time, we loose one dimension of our freedom (up and down) and are 'limited' to the bottom :smile:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (11/29/06 10:50 AM)

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6318417 -

These are goals of seers and some warriors, the average man rarely if ever thinks about this and isn't willing to do anything even if.

Most all of us fall into this catagory and even those who would try (like myself) usually will never have the personal power to accomplish this goal if it were possible. I personally still see value in the warriors way.

As far as ego goes that is always there as is everything else. If one were to activate all their emanations at once (the seers bid for freedom)the ego would be of no more importance than anything else and so would not be an issue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Veritas]
    #6318418 -

The only way our mental existence carries on in this universe is through a physical connection to this universe. A complete disconnect from this reality may only be achieved through destruction of the gateway. A killed brain, if you will.

Absolute freedom in this universe may only be characterized in terms of this universe, none of us may escape it. While even a strand exists to connect us to this universe it is impossible to know how close we are from disconnecting entirely.

There is certainly freedom in the disconnect, in death. It is freedom from life. What lies within that 'freedom' however, cannot be brought back into this universe in any factual way. Only suppositionally.



I think the freedom described here by Juan is more appropriately viewed as a maximal alignment. Rather than being free of the universe, I believe he is speaking of taking infinite responsibility.

Complete awareness is to remove all blame from responsibility and maximize your potential to influence the future. Through an entirely selfless vessel you will be minimally inhibited in recognizing and accommodating the forces which flow through you and influence the universe.

As you become more aware you will become more able to be comfortable with and understanding of these forces. I do not believe you will ever be free from them, I believe living in this universe is to have choice thrust upon you, regardless of situation.

But to become maximally aware, is to become selfless, is to align what IS best with what YOU want, and so you will never need a selfish act for personal gratification.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6318433 -

I think the freedom described here by Juan is more appropriately is more appropriately viewed as a maximal alignment. Rather than being free of the universe, I believe he is speaking of taking infinite responsibility.

Complete awareness is to remove all blame from responsibility and maximize your potential to influence the future. Through an entirely selfless vessel you will be minimally inhibited in recognizing and accommodating the forces which flow through you and influence the universe.

As you become more aware you will become more able to be comfortable with and understanding of these forces. I do not believe you will ever be free from them, I believe living in this universe is to have choice thrust upon you, regardless of situation.

But to become maximally aware, is to become selfless, is to align what IS best with what YOU want, and so you will never need a selfish act for personal gratification.


While I like and agree with some of what you are saying here this seems to bear little resemblence to what DJ is talking about. Read again "The Fire from Within" and you will see what I am refering to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Veritas]
    #6318528 -

Quote:
The hostile intention of killing the ego is likely to create an intimate enemy.


The idea, as far as I can tell, is to not annihilate your ego, rather to see it for what it truly is: not intrinsically existent and transient. Once you see the ego for what it truly is, then I don't really think it's much of a problem anymore. I think that is what is meant by transcending the ego.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Lion]
    #6318546 -

bug said:
"when shall I be free?
when I shall cease to be..."
-Shpongle

no "total freedom" until death - of the ego, at least, if not of the bodily prison itself


Fucking amazing song!

But, I disagree with you on two points. First, that there is no total freedom until the ego dies. I don't see freedom as some far off event. I see it as the reality of this very moment! But we, as humans, are confused about reality. We don't understand what's going on. We may understand it to some degree intellectually, but I don't think we really feel it, really know it down to our very bones. I don't think the ego must be destroyed to achieve freedom, rather we must understand it for what it is, and not allow ourselves to become ensnared by its tricks and delusions.

Secondly, what would the body be a prison to?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: dblaney]
    #6318563 -

Dude I love my ego bro, I want to cultivate it, I want to propagate it, I want it to be the best it can be, cuz its me.

After my body dies, I will never have another chance to be Todd William Fulton agian, NEVER.

So I am not going to wast my time trying to figure out what happens after death, cuz it will happen, or trying to remain in a state of ego loss, which is like a vegatative state when viewed from outside your body, sure you could be flying with angels, but fuck man, I want some bitches to fuck, some exctacy to take, and an ego to ENJOY.

And I totally agree with ExplosiveMango, ITS FUCKING GREAT WHEN YOU CAN JUST START LAUGHING, just because you know you can, ITS FUCKING GREAT WHEN YOU CAN JUST START DANCING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MALL, just because you know you can.

Bro the only moment in this life that will EVER matter, is the moment your lying on your death bed. I want to be able to SMILE as Im dieing, just because I know I can.

LIVE LIFE AND FUCK IT.

Edited by Mr_Spliff (11/29/06 11:49 AM)

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Mr_Spliff]
    #6318685 -

Quote:
LIVE LIFE AND FUCK IT.


Interesting path. But what happens if the pursuit of your passions causes suffering in others?

What would happen if everyone on the planet adopted that maxim? What if everyone said just live life and fuck it? I imagine that very quickly there would be wars and fighting and eventually a state of chaos. If everyone did what they wanted, then people would clearly be interfering with others' pursuit of their passions and desires. How well would that work out?

Quote:
Dude I love my ego bro


Loving your ego is just fine, in fact that's wonderful. Just so long as you realize what it really is.

Quote:
I want to cultivate it, I want to propagate it, I want it to be the best it can be, cuz its me.


This indicates to me that maybe you don't understand what the ego really is. It sounds like think of it as actually being real. It sounds like you think you really exist. This is what is referred to as confusion or even sometimes ignorance.

What is the ego made of?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: dblaney]
    #6318756 -

Maybe I don't fully comprehend what an ego is but this is what Ive grown to think of it...

My ego is this little guy I see when I ( I being the key word) look at myself. The recreation I create of myself. The little man inside my head.

And how the hell do I NOT exist? I may be a dream, but its real.

What is the ego made of?

According to me... Its made up of your ideas, thoughts, and preconceptions you have of yourself, like people with anorexia, they see a fat person in the mirror, they look down and see fat. No the ego is not real, to me its what you think of yourself, and what you think of yourself sends off "vibs" (mystical or no) to others and they respond to those vibs, I want my ego to be the best it can be to maximize my fun here as what I know to be ME.

Of coarse I've always been kind to people, I know I should be more specific in my maxim, but you should of seen the look on those peoples faces when I just started dancing, maybe it should go like this...

LIVE LIFE, HAVE FUN, AND DON"T WORRY.

And if you find it fun to harm others then your a sick mother fucker.

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Mr_Spliff]
    #6318782 -

I think you have the correct conception of ego here. It's ego inflation and massive self-importance that are problems in living IMO. This thread isn't really about having or not having an ego. It's about what stands in ones way of getting the most life offers. For the average human, who IMO is sleeping, the answer will be different than for the would be seer. Maybe personal power decided which camp one falls into.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318803 -

Quote:
Maybe personal power decided which camp one falls into.


I don't attribute much significance to personal power. Seeking personal power can directly or indirectly reinforce some people's self-importance. As far as I can tell, personal power arises naturally with meditation.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Total freedom. [Re: Icelander]
    #6318806 -

How does this have anything to do with me?

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