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How do religions start?
    #5698796 -

I posted this in the question for buddhists thread but thought it might like some further discussion in relation to religions in general.
----------------------------------------------------
Question:
Wasn't buddha just a man, like anyone else, that created a philsophy, is his definition of this so called karma so important that we also have to worry about shit thats beyond us. I thought buddha's only concerned themselves with things they only actually knew.


Icelander said:
I don't think Buddha concerned himself with these kinds of questions. He left that for the religion they created around his teachings.

Here an interesting insight into this. I got involved with and finally taught a specialized form of Martial Art that was very direct and never showy, but deadly effective. It had few principles and physical moves compared to other Martial Arts. We had trouble keeping students because of this. Most wanted fantasy and moves they could show their friends; they wanted belts so they could talk about their rank, and some forms they could show to their friends. Finally the head instructor had to add some of these things, just to keep enough students to pay the bills. Think about this in relation to how religions form.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 08:50 AM)

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5698827 -

I think and I know I am going to probly get torn apart for this but plz understand this is just my belief and not attcking anyone, with that being said. Man has a need to feel that there is something beyond to help with the most part of thier own mortality. I beleive budda, jeasus and all of the other great people who taught peace were good people, but other people use thier teachings to control the masses. I beleive that there is a God but thats about it. I beleive as long as you try to live your life with the princpal of being kind and helping others you are good to go, not saying I am always kind and help others but I do try and I am getting better at it. The part about wanting to show something to thier friends, yes man sometimes need ways to show others so that others will beleive what they say is true. I know this sounds kind of messed up and I am not very good at expressing myself with typed words. But all of this is IMO


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IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.




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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5698892 -

I don't think buddah invented Karma

I think he became aware of it, and alerted others to it's existence.

He didn't create the concept of Karma

He discovered it. Or I should say, he is one of the people who discovered it. And he is widely known for teaching about it

But I think Karma has been around for quite some time. Hundreds of thousands of years, probably.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5698907 -

Buddha was Hindu, of the Brahman caste. He left his wealthy royal family to seek liberation after the manner of ascetic yogis - a long established path. Along the way, he discovered the wisdom of The Middle Way, as when he accepted some simple food from a female. For this act the yogis rejected him, but young Siddartha of the Sakya clan felt energized and was able to better focus on his meditation. If the Sakyamuni [sage of the Sakyas] 'discovered anything,' it was the value of The Middle Way in all things.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5698912 -

love the middle way

hate the middleman

:smile:

always tryin to keep to the middle way

always tryin to cut out the middle man

:lol:

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5698942 -

Finally the head instructor had to add some of these things, just to keep enough students to pay the bills.

Religions seem like clubs to me. Once you add frills to "pay the bills" the origional teaching becomes somewhat diluted. As time goes on and desire for sucess takes on more meaning more frills are added and more dilution. Finally it is difficult for the student to discern the core teachings from the fluff, his development faulters and we are left waiting for the next "style" to come along and once again show us the core teaching in a form that can inspire greatness. Some well established styles are almost completely devoid of their core ideas and are the living dead and attract the weakest and most numerous amounts of practioners.

Repeat cycle.

Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 09:58 AM)

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5698944 -

they pretty much are social clubs

what's God have to do with Church?

not much, that I know of.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5698962 -

doesn't "god" have to do with everything?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
    #5698965 -

well yeah

but if God were to incarnate himself physically here on earth,

I seriously doubt he would go to Church.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5698980 -

DoctorJ said:
I don't think buddah invented Karma

I think he became aware of it, and alerted others to it's existence.

He didn't create the concept of Karma

He discovered it. Or I should say, he is one of the people who discovered it. And he is widely known for teaching about it

But I think Karma has been around for quite some time. Hundreds of thousands of years, probably.


not really
the term karma was hindu
and the mysticism about it remains hindu.
the buddha tried to get people to understand
pratyekka samabhava (the law of dependent origination)
but they kept reinterpretting it as karma hindu style
also he wanted to teach about death and rebirth as an ongoing issue
in consciousness and personality within the lifetime of a single body, and people kept on with the hindu interpretation of re-incarnation.
ultimately buddhism is hinduism or shintoism with some sutras from the buddha, and a few less gods.
the core of buddhism is close to the core of taoism.
the core of christianity might be the same but it has been heavily edited by powerbrokers and profiteers.

so to answer the first question
powerbrokers and profiteers take a product with potential and use that to their advantage. sometimes the result is a new religion.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5698985 -

i disagree, that would probably be the best place to start.  you work from the bottom up.  :grin:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5699043 -

Wasn't buddha just a man, like anyone else, that created a philsophy, is his definition of this so called karma so important that we also have to worry about shit thats beyond us.

Yes, the Shakyamuni Buddha was just a man. People (read: marketers) have a nasty habit of immortalizing people for extra effect and profit.

As for Karma, it doesn't truly exist, it's of the nature of emptyness. Buddha taught this. Nagarjuna added this:

"Mental afflictions, actions, and bodies,
As well as actors and results,
Are like cities of gandharvas,
Like mirages, and like dreams."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
    #5699065 -

Does this make sence. reliogon is man made, spirituality is god(or what ever entity you beleive in) made. I have a hard time with groups who try to force thier ideas and opions on others and can not except the possiable fect that thiers might be wrong. I can not beleive that if God is all loving and forgiving that just because of someones belief or life style that they would be condemed. just my 2 cents


--------------------
IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.




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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5699124 -

Icelander said:
Religions seem like clubs to me. Once you add frills to "pay the bills" the origional teaching becomes somewhat diluted. As time goes on and desire for sucess takes on more meaning more frills are added and more dilution. Finally it is difficult for the student to discern the core teachings from the fluff, his development faulters and we are left waiting for the next "style" to come along and once again show us the core teaching in a form that can inspire greatness. Some well established styles are almost completely devoid of their core ideas and are the living dead and attract the weakest and most numerous amounts of  practioners.

Repeat cycle.



:congrats:

redgreenvines said:
so to answer the first question
powerbrokers and profiteers take a product with potential and use that to their advantage. sometimes the result is a new religion.


:congrats:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: niteowl]
    #5699178 -

I think religion was spurred on by peoples imagination, just look at Greek mythology, that was total imagination, same with Hindu, and look at how many followers it had, shoot I've made fantasy worlds, I used to play this game called dudgeon's and dragons, but we made these worlds up by scratch, it was fun to create our own worlds, where we created obstacles and conquer these worlds. Shoot as the game went on we revolutionized the way we could beat it. I remember one were I got to conquer the whole world and beat the game and still be evil, even though it was intended to be beaten with good standing.

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5699517 -

My theory about how religions start:

1. Someone has a mystical experience.
2. They try to communicate this transcendent experience to others, but are restricted by the limitations of their language.
3. People interpret the mystic's words in different ways.
4. People argue over which interpretation is correct.
5. People argue against other mystics and their followers.
6. People kill each other.


--------------------

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5699535 -

:rofl:

2000 years later:

"I say our prophet stood for Peace and Love"

"I say our prophet stood for Compassion and Understanding!"

*Commence global thermonuclear war*

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5699550 -

Yeah I agree. There are many factors here but I think we have our finger on some of the main ones.

And this all says to me that I need to go and find my own thing and have a direct experience. I can check in with all the others but in the end I need to walk it alone. Then when I come back, if I do, I should keep shut for the most part.

I once saw a quote somewhere that went something like. " All the greatest saints and avatars and enlightened beings have come and gone unknown, all the others were second rate, those unknowns never communicatied their discovery to the masses. They just melted down in love."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5699576 -

Wisdom is spread through out the earth like rain, and when they collect to create bodies of wisdom, a religious and spiritual tradition is born.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Basilides]
    #5699596 -

I haven't seen that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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