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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
    #5704712 - 06/02/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Good question. In the mean time its better to have a life affirming and joyful program then an unhealthy, unskillful, painful one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
    #5704716 - 06/02/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
basically they hack into the fear center of your brain and plant a button in it that can be pushed at any time against your will.

if you could view, symbollically as if tripping, the process of fear indoctrination it would probably look something like that.

maybe a vampire digging into your brain, scaring the hell out of you, then attaching part of his essence to your brain to stalk you from afar.

Fear is authorities ultimate weapon. Planes only hit the WTC twice. We witnessed the act hundreds of times on television. Fear was what allowed the invasion of Iraq. Fear is what allows the war on drugs, which is just as inexcusable as slavery or any other foolish American endeavour.... just as ridiculous, harmful, and EVIL, just as vindicative and senseless... but fear of our children's safety allows it to happen. (incidentally are children are unsafe only becasue of the drug war's existence).

Fear is what got him back in office. Fear is what kept people voting for the "lesser of two evils" instead of electing the third party officials they truely believed in.

How many times did you see "WMD attack in America?" as a credible news headline on cable news leading up to the Iraq war? That was the IMMEDIATE topic of sepculation after 9/11....

Fear is the great motivator. It's sick and sad......... how free we would be if liberated from such things. Hell is something the preachers only throw out when they want you back in their power....... bird flu, scapegoats such as Sadama bin Hussein..... etc....

just thrown out now and then to keep us in our place... to keep us following a doctrine.

It wouldn't be surprising if the church in the middle ages completely and totally invented hell... many Christians who have studied the Bible in Greek context state that there is no eternal hell, that it is mistranslation and misunderstanding and abused by authority.




before the 2004 election, did you see the bush ad "wolves" (try a google search) i simply could not believe that a campaign would use fear to aquire votes that blatantly. it was like "vote for us or else".


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
    #5704725 - 06/02/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Most Americans IMO(often because of our sexually repressive and religious programs) live most of their lives in fear (stress). It's easy then to use fear to drive the masses in any direction desired.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5704743 - 06/02/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i am extremely sexually repressed to the point of it inducing extreme mental unbalance.
the thing is i don't know what to think about sex.

it's a direct block on my spiritual path.... an undying obsession to the point of hungry-ghost levels. i want it. i don't have it. i can't have it. i want it more. i seek it out in my dreams and waste countless hours for dream exploration just trying to have sex.

then when a real opportunity to have dream sex comes along i think it comes from the devil and fight it away as hard as i can.

sex is fine if used properly but i dunno.... sexual repression has us by the balls at the hands of America........ such a simple way to sell products while never satisfying... never getting to see the full thing.... no wonder kids are sex crazy!!!

no i haven't seen the "wolves" ad... sounds interesting.

what i can say is i find it appauling how sexually loose and evil television is. now if they showed people in love having sex as part of a plot that would be cool... but you use sex to sell fucking PEPSI!!! and ipods... and everything.

it's prostitution. it makes me very uncomfortable. I do not desire real women sexually. I look at them as people. But 20 minutes in front of the TV and ALL THE WOMEN I SEE ARE JUST OBJECTS and I want them.

I used to view all women as objects.... lusting after them... til I went through my TV abandonment and drug experiences... now I just see the whores on TV as objects and even if a real woman dresses up with too much blatant skin exposure and gaudy makeup I still see her as a person.... and generally she looks really sad and empty on the inside.

that's a terrible life to condition girls into.. before they hit puberty they dress like hookers ...... idolizing the sluts on the radio.

I don't hate them, not even Paris Hilton... but I think I'm right in throwing the term "slut" around hopeflly, to help encourage thought and understanding of how I view things.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/02/06 04:41 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
    #5704763 - 06/02/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was brought up to believe that sex was evil. My parents wouldn't allow any mention of it and pretended it did not exist. You can see what that would do to a child going through puberty and the awkward feelings of raging hormones. I would be sent straight to hell if I touched myself down there. They had quit sleeping together by the time I was 6.

Lerry 11 , you have put your finger right on it in many ways. Sexual confusion is the norm. Just check the boards.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
    #5704789 - 06/02/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I don't think its necessarily true that fear always persists once the threat is realized to be non existent. ever felt that feeling of relief when you realize something you feared for very long was in reality perfectly benign?




The subconscious does not work in the same manner as the conscious mind does. As a child, I was terrified of the possibillity of being abducted by aliens, or of even meeting one. The concept of an advanced alien and the power that it would possess in comparison to my own was hauntingly overwhelming. How do you hide from an alien, how do you run from an alien, how can you even plan agansit an alien's will when it can perceive your thoughts? Simply terrifying prospect.

How do you think such would effect a young child, in a time in one's life where one's subconscious is being actively programmed? The rational mind does not have much dominion over the subconscious, the nature of the distinction between conscious and subconscious should underscore this.

And what of now? The fear of aliens isn't exactly something that can be resolved by realizing that it is nonexistant, because it is not something that can be proven to be nonexistant. God and aliens are thus similar. It is a fear that one can only come to terms with in a very conscious, calm manner. I realized that, considering the nature of the idea of an alien and the potential threats to myself and my life situation that an alien could hold, the fact is that I would be effectively powerless.

I had to accept the fact that, if such a situation were to present itself, there would be nothing I could do to prevent any negative occurence that I could imagine from happening. If the situation presented itself, I would simply have to accept it as it is, and, in the meantime, not concern myself with it, as no amount of preperation or concern for it would help me prevent it in any manner.

How do you think that affected my subconscious mind? The thought of aliens doesn't cross my mind. Interestingly enough, the other night I had a more lucid than average dream in which there was a lot of alien activity, and it didn't actually provoke any fear within me. I even woke up, thought to myself on how cool it was that I didn't freak out, and even gazed out the window a bit. I fell back asleep, and the fact that I dwelled upon it seemed to provoke more alien activity, and I began to freak out more and more. :lol:

Honestly, I think it is rather evident that the subconscious doesn't let go unless you actively pursue transforming it with the conscious mind, and that, even then... it might regress. At the very least, it takes conscious effort, intensity of awareness and focus, and discipline in order to resolve subconscious issues, and quite possibly, a guide, although the person who can more directly perceive reality and will allow honest observations no matter how much emotional resistance is being inflicted upon oneself should be able to manage quite well on resolution, especially (and most effectively) with the assistance of certain psychadelics... :mushroom2:

Quote:


well duh, i have tons of unresolved mental problems.




How effortless is it to resolve them, and, if it *could be* effortless if one applied oneself, then why are you not offering transcendence for yourself?

Working on one's mind and how it conducts one's experience of reality, managing greater degrees of awareness, is the single most effective, beneficial, fufilling activity that one could ever engage in, and I even ask myself why I would not make that the upmost priority in my life, as it is the first step in the order of operations, even more notable than sustaining one's existance.

Quote:

I left the substance because I realized how much it was harming me, not out of fear. I weathered some incredibly awful trips with it without succombing to fear.




The substance was not harming you, in any way. You associate the experience that you conducted while in the influence of marijuana as being entirely resultant of marijuana itself. The nature of marijuana is that it brings more awareness into the mind, more focus upon the direct experience. The effect that such will have for you is directly evident of the manner in which your mind operates and conducts itself in response to that experience, which thereby creates your experience.

I think you made a great choice by stopping your usage of marijuana if your mind was creating such a negative experience for you while on it, but to not realize what was responsible for the experience (your mind, not the substance itself) will obscure any oppurtunity for you to actually resolve and correct the errors within your mind that are actually responsible.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
    #5704832 - 06/02/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
I think ultimately a free mind, a repgraommed mind...

is a mind empty. A mind in meditation. That's how truth surfaces, how God surfaces, how false prophets and devils fall out of your psyche.




Exactly. One focuses on one's experience, as it is directly perceived. This is living in the here and now. The more one's awareness is within the present moment, the less one's preconceived notions effect one's present experience.

Which is the way it should be, as the past cannot define the present. Time is a relative, abstract concept as it stands anyways, which can be evidenced by the realization that everyything occurs within the present, that it is always this moment.

The people who more directly perceive reality as it is presented are the people who more directly know reality. They are the ones who transcend their limitations and most effectively embrace change, the ones who become capable of navigating reality (in actuality, becoming conscious of the fact that they are reality in motion) and most positively advancing the state that reality exists within and as.

The mind itself isn't exactly "empty", but it becomes more and more conducive to direct perception and experience as one removes obstructions that "keep reality out", the more one bathes in reality, the more the unnecessary aspects of the mind which prevent realization dissolve, the result of the Clear Light Of Unmitigated Reality (god I love that phrase and my limited understanding of it :grin:).

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5705238 - 06/02/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


The substance was not harming you, in any way.




please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.

Quote:

You associate the experience that you conducted while in the influence of marijuana as being entirely resultant of marijuana itself.




once again, another baseless statement. you think ive never heard of set and setting? you think im not keenly aware of the way in which your mind influences the experience you have on psychedelics?

Quote:

The nature of marijuana is that it brings more awareness into the mind, more focus upon the direct experience.




prove that this is the nature of marijuana and that it has no other affects and no physiological affects.

Quote:

The effect that such will have for you is directly evident of the manner in which your mind operates and conducts itself in response to that experience, which thereby creates your experience. I think you made a great choice by stopping your usage of marijuana if your mind was creating such a negative experience for you while on it, but to not realize what was responsible for the experience (your mind, not the substance itself) will obscure any oppurtunity for you to actually resolve and correct the errors within your mind that are actually responsible.




what about my brain? has it no role in creating my experience? once again, i will remind you that i am keenly aware of my mind and how it creates my experience. i was a master at using marijuana combined with mental effort to reach escastic states of consciousness. however, after a long periodic of heavy use, marijuana began to affect me differently. it became impossible to achieve this state regardless of how i operated my mind. there is no reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference as a result of tolerance. to deny there is any physiological component, to deny that the brain reacts in any way to long term administration of cannabis, is baseless. there is no proof that your position is correct. please do not state it as fact. the fact of the matter is that marijuana works by affecting the brain. to assume the brain can tolerate an infinite amount of cannabis with no lasting affects is naive. the following studies all found evidence of physiological changes due to marijuana use:


http://www.cannabis.net/dopamine/index.html

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/content/health-pubs-drug-cannab2-ch75.htm

(the last paragraphs of this report conclude that many of the brain changes caused by chronic marijuana usu are subtle and will not be detected by standard tests, that doesn't mean we conclude they don't exist)

cannabis appears to have long term affects on bloodflow:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050211084701.htm

cannabis and the brain:

http://www.cannabis.net/canbrain.html

"The toxicity of marijuana has been underestimated for a long time, since recent findings revealed delta9-THC-induced cell death with shrinkage of neurons and DNA fragmentation in the hippocampus."

another study which i cant find right now found impaired ability to descriminate between sounds in long term marijuana users. i do not wish to debate the merits of these studies because the only conclusioin we can come to is that there is inconclusive evidence to prove whether or not marijuana has long term physiological consequences. however, there is certainly more than enough evidence to call into question your claim that it doesn't.


Edited by Deviate (06/02/06 09:28 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
    #5706865 - 06/03/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:


please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.




It was a reference to the problems that you expressed. Obviously, burnt plant material is going to have an adverse effect on the lungs. The substance itself was not harming you mentally in any way.

Quote:

you think ive never heard of set and setting? you think im not keenly aware of the way in which your mind influences the experience you have on psychedelics?




Perhaps consciously, but it distinctly seems as though your subconscious fucked shit up for you. :lol:

Quote:


prove that this is the nature of marijuana and that it has no other affects and no physiological affects.




Prove that it does, as I am not making the claim that there are other physiological effects.

Quote:

i was a master at using marijuana combined with mental effort to reach escastic states of consciousness. however, after a long periodic of heavy use, marijuana began to affect me differently. it became impossible to achieve this state regardless of how i operated my mind. there is no reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference as a result of tolerance.




It sounds like other aspects of your life's situation changed, and you couldn't deal with higher degrees of awareness mentally. There is plenty of reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference, one of them being that other individuals have absolutely no problems with frequent, continued use. I see no reason to believe that your mind was not at fault.

Quote:


to deny there is any physiological component, to deny that the brain reacts in any way to long term administration of cannabis, is baseless.




There might very well be some effects, but not nearly as exaggerated as you would make it seem. You are simply looking to avoid responsibility for your mind's actions, and the fact that your problems relating to masturbation that you have expressed in this forum is further evident of your mental problems which are to blame.

Unless you are proposing that there are long-term, physiological effects of masturbation as well? :lol:

Quote:

 
(the last paragraphs of this report conclude that many of the brain changes caused by chronic marijuana usu are subtle and will not be detected by standard tests, that doesn't mean we conclude they don't exist)




It doesn't mean that we conclude that they are substansial. The effects you describe (the ones resulting from your mind) seem to be serious and pronounced, not subtle and difficult to detect. I simply don't buy that, after so many years, after so many joints, THC suddenly makes you full of anxiety and have panic attacks, etc. etc. Sounds like results from misuse to me...

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: How do religions start? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5707148 - 06/03/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If by "brings more awareness into the mind" you mean it makes you talk like Cheech and/or Chong, then I agree wholeheartedly.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5707404 - 06/03/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If by "brings more awareness into the mind" you mean it makes you talk like Cheech and/or Chong, then I agree wholeheartedly.




:lol:

:rolleyes:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: How do religions start? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5707705 - 06/03/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:


please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.




It was a reference to the problems that you expressed. Obviously, burnt plant material is going to have an adverse effect on the lungs. The substance itself was not harming you mentally in any way.




first of all i did not express any problems in this thread, i simply said i stopped using it because it was harming me, not because i was afraid. damage to the lungs was  the most major way in which it was harming me.  secondly, the statement that it was not harming me in any way mentally is baseless. you are entitled to that opinion but you simply cannot state it as fact.

Quote:


Perhaps consciously, but it distinctly seems as though your subconscious fucked shit up for you. :lol:




you are free to speculate as much as  you wish, however this isn't even relevant to what im saying, nor can you claim it as fact.
Quote:




Prove that it does, as I am not making the claim that there are other physiological effects.




do you mean you're not making the claim that there are no other physiological affects? increased heart rate is a a short term physiological affect of marijuana.


Quote:


It sounds like other aspects of your life's situation changed, and you couldn't deal with higher degrees of awareness mentally.




my life situation did not change at all, nor did i have a problem dealing with "higher degrees of awareness". i was still able to use mushrooms without problems at this time.


Quote:

There is plenty of reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference, one of them being that other individuals have absolutely no problems with frequent, continued use. I see no reason to believe that your mind was not at fault.






i'm not claiming that every negative experience i had was out of my control. im claiming that the way marijuana affected me changed even when i responded to it in the same manner. even if i remained perfectly calm throughout the entire experience, it was still no longer pleasant. there is good reason to assume this was due to my body building a tolerance. its proven that chronic adminstration of thc can lead to tolerance. to deny there is any physiological component to this tolerance is silly. in addition, many other people have experienced this same type of reaction, where initually marijuana is experienced as very mind expanding and enjoyable and then with long term heavy use they build a tolerance to these affects and are no longer able to enjoy it in the same manner. but none of this is relevant to what im saying because, once again, im not claiming that anxiety, or panick attacks ar entirely physiological in nature. im merely disputing your statement that  smoking marijuana was not harming me mentally in any way. the truth is, you don't know this and to claim it as fact is baseless. you constantly point it out when other users make baseless or unproveable statements as premises and then you go and do the same thing.


Quote:

There might very well be some effects, but not nearly as exaggerated as you would make it seem.




i didn't  mention ANY affects in this thread, let alone which ones i believed may have been due to physiological factors. it is therefore impossible that i could have made them seem exaggerated. the fact that you now admit there might be some affects proves your initial statement is not a known fact and that's all i'm trying to prove here.

Quote:

You are simply looking to avoid responsibility for your mind's actions, and the fact that your problems relating to masturbation that you have expressed in this forum is further evident of your mental problems which are to blame.




you are really reaching now. there is no relation here. in other words,  you cannot logically  claim that because someone had one psychological issue, that all expereinces they have must be due to other psychological issues.

Quote:

Unless you are proposing that there are long-term, physiological effects of masturbation as well? :lol:




 

there may be:

"On July 16, 2003, an Australian research team led by Graham Giles of The Cancer Council published a medical study [4] which concluded that frequent masturbation by males may help prevent the development of prostate cancer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbating#Health_and_psychological_effects
Quote:

It doesn't mean that we conclude that they are substansial. The effects you describe (the ones resulting from your mind) seem to be serious and pronounced, not subtle and difficult to detect. I simply don't buy that, after so many years, after so many joints, THC suddenly makes you full of anxiety and have panic attacks, etc. etc. Sounds like results from misuse to me...




wow, how can you say the affects i describe seem serious and not subtle WHEN I DID NOT DESRCIBE ANY AFFECTS? you seem to be assuming that i blame every negative experience i ever had with cannabis on purely physiological factors when nothing could be further from the truth. your entire argument is a straw man. the effects i believe may have a physiological nature are quite subtle and difficult to describe to someone who hasnt experienced them. remember, the statement i was responding to was your baseless statement that [using cannabis] was not harming me in any way. in order for this to be false, all that had to happen was for cannabis to harm me in most the subtle way possible. even if the only thing it ever did was make my memory .00001% worse, your statement would still be wrong.  you are free to believe whatever you wish but you cannot make such statements as fact. the scientific data is clearly in dissagreement with you and i am afraid i am going to have to side with science on this one.


Edited by Deviate (06/03/06 03:24 PM)


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
    #5711285 - 06/04/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

events start religion.


--------------------
Asshole


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5712740 - 06/04/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
More important to me than how a religion starts: how does a religion end?




Communism.

The aspect I like about this is that communism is also inevitable, according to Marx, so all religions will end if humanity lives long enough to see it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Ravus]
    #5713173 - 06/04/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Political ideologies and religions seem to have an equal share of dishonest dogmatism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5714171 - 06/05/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

At least. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Posts: 1,511
Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
    #5716039 - 06/05/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, I just want to say that I believe you are right. Sorry I brought it up. Peace.


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