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Icelander
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How do religions start?
#5698796 - 06/01/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I posted this in the question for buddhists thread but thought it might like some further discussion in relation to religions in general. ---------------------------------------------------- Question: Wasn't buddha just a man, like anyone else, that created a philsophy, is his definition of this so called karma so important that we also have to worry about shit thats beyond us. I thought buddha's only concerned themselves with things they only actually knew.
Icelander said: I don't think Buddha concerned himself with these kinds of questions. He left that for the religion they created around his teachings.
Here an interesting insight into this. I got involved with and finally taught a specialized form of Martial Art that was very direct and never showy, but deadly effective. It had few principles and physical moves compared to other Martial Arts. We had trouble keeping students because of this. Most wanted fantasy and moves they could show their friends; they wanted belts so they could talk about their rank, and some forms they could show to their friends. Finally the head instructor had to add some of these things, just to keep enough students to pay the bills. Think about this in relation to how religions form.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 08:50 AM)
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kilroy
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5698827 - 06/01/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think and I know I am going to probly get torn apart for this but plz understand this is just my belief and not attcking anyone, with that being said. Man has a need to feel that there is something beyond to help with the most part of thier own mortality. I beleive budda, jeasus and all of the other great people who taught peace were good people, but other people use thier teachings to control the masses. I beleive that there is a God but thats about it. I beleive as long as you try to live your life with the princpal of being kind and helping others you are good to go, not saying I am always kind and help others but I do try and I am getting better at it. The part about wanting to show something to thier friends, yes man sometimes need ways to show others so that others will beleive what they say is true. I know this sounds kind of messed up and I am not very good at expressing myself with typed words. But all of this is IMO
-------------------- IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.
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DoctorJ


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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5698892 - 06/01/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think buddah invented Karma
I think he became aware of it, and alerted others to it's existence.
He didn't create the concept of Karma
He discovered it. Or I should say, he is one of the people who discovered it. And he is widely known for teaching about it
But I think Karma has been around for quite some time. Hundreds of thousands of years, probably.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5698907 - 06/01/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Buddha was Hindu, of the Brahman caste. He left his wealthy royal family to seek liberation after the manner of ascetic yogis - a long established path. Along the way, he discovered the wisdom of The Middle Way, as when he accepted some simple food from a female. For this act the yogis rejected him, but young Siddartha of the Sakya clan felt energized and was able to better focus on his meditation. If the Sakyamuni [sage of the Sakyas] 'discovered anything,' it was the value of The Middle Way in all things.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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DoctorJ


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love the middle way
hate the middleman

always tryin to keep to the middle way
always tryin to cut out the middle man
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5698942 - 06/01/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Finally the head instructor had to add some of these things, just to keep enough students to pay the bills.
Religions seem like clubs to me. Once you add frills to "pay the bills" the origional teaching becomes somewhat diluted. As time goes on and desire for sucess takes on more meaning more frills are added and more dilution. Finally it is difficult for the student to discern the core teachings from the fluff, his development faulters and we are left waiting for the next "style" to come along and once again show us the core teaching in a form that can inspire greatness. Some well established styles are almost completely devoid of their core ideas and are the living dead and attract the weakest and most numerous amounts of practioners.
Repeat cycle.
Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 09:58 AM)
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DoctorJ


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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5698944 - 06/01/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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they pretty much are social clubs
what's God have to do with Church?
not much, that I know of.
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kotik
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5698962 - 06/01/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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doesn't "god" have to do with everything?
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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DoctorJ


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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
#5698965 - 06/01/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well yeah
but if God were to incarnate himself physically here on earth,
I seriously doubt he would go to Church.
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redgreenvines
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5698980 - 06/01/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: I don't think buddah invented Karma
I think he became aware of it, and alerted others to it's existence.
He didn't create the concept of Karma
He discovered it. Or I should say, he is one of the people who discovered it. And he is widely known for teaching about it
But I think Karma has been around for quite some time. Hundreds of thousands of years, probably.
not really the term karma was hindu and the mysticism about it remains hindu. the buddha tried to get people to understand pratyekka samabhava (the law of dependent origination) but they kept reinterpretting it as karma hindu style also he wanted to teach about death and rebirth as an ongoing issue in consciousness and personality within the lifetime of a single body, and people kept on with the hindu interpretation of re-incarnation. ultimately buddhism is hinduism or shintoism with some sutras from the buddha, and a few less gods. the core of buddhism is close to the core of taoism. the core of christianity might be the same but it has been heavily edited by powerbrokers and profiteers.
so to answer the first question powerbrokers and profiteers take a product with potential and use that to their advantage. sometimes the result is a new religion.
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_ 🧠 _
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kotik
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5698985 - 06/01/06 10:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i disagree, that would probably be the best place to start. you work from the bottom up.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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dblaney
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699043 - 06/01/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wasn't buddha just a man, like anyone else, that created a philsophy, is his definition of this so called karma so important that we also have to worry about shit thats beyond us.
Yes, the Shakyamuni Buddha was just a man. People (read: marketers) have a nasty habit of immortalizing people for extra effect and profit.
As for Karma, it doesn't truly exist, it's of the nature of emptyness. Buddha taught this. Nagarjuna added this:
"Mental afflictions, actions, and bodies, As well as actors and results, Are like cities of gandharvas, Like mirages, and like dreams."
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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kilroy
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
#5699065 - 06/01/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Does this make sence. reliogon is man made, spirituality is god(or what ever entity you beleive in) made. I have a hard time with groups who try to force thier ideas and opions on others and can not except the possiable fect that thiers might be wrong. I can not beleive that if God is all loving and forgiving that just because of someones belief or life style that they would be condemed. just my 2 cents
-------------------- IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.
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niteowl
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699124 - 06/01/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Religions seem like clubs to me. Once you add frills to "pay the bills" the origional teaching becomes somewhat diluted. As time goes on and desire for sucess takes on more meaning more frills are added and more dilution. Finally it is difficult for the student to discern the core teachings from the fluff, his development faulters and we are left waiting for the next "style" to come along and once again show us the core teaching in a form that can inspire greatness. Some well established styles are almost completely devoid of their core ideas and are the living dead and attract the weakest and most numerous amounts of practioners.
Repeat cycle.

Quote:
redgreenvines said: so to answer the first question powerbrokers and profiteers take a product with potential and use that to their advantage. sometimes the result is a new religion.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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capliberty
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: niteowl]
#5699178 - 06/01/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think religion was spurred on by peoples imagination, just look at Greek mythology, that was total imagination, same with Hindu, and look at how many followers it had, shoot I've made fantasy worlds, I used to play this game called dudgeon's and dragons, but we made these worlds up by scratch, it was fun to create our own worlds, where we created obstacles and conquer these worlds. Shoot as the game went on we revolutionized the way we could beat it. I remember one were I got to conquer the whole world and beat the game and still be evil, even though it was intended to be beaten with good standing.
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Silversoul
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699517 - 06/01/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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My theory about how religions start:
1. Someone has a mystical experience. 2. They try to communicate this transcendent experience to others, but are restricted by the limitations of their language. 3. People interpret the mystic's words in different ways. 4. People argue over which interpretation is correct. 5. People argue against other mystics and their followers. 6. People kill each other.
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DoctorJ


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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Silversoul]
#5699535 - 06/01/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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2000 years later:
"I say our prophet stood for Peace and Love"
"I say our prophet stood for Compassion and Understanding!"
*Commence global thermonuclear war*
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Silversoul]
#5699550 - 06/01/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah I agree. There are many factors here but I think we have our finger on some of the main ones.
And this all says to me that I need to go and find my own thing and have a direct experience. I can check in with all the others but in the end I need to walk it alone. Then when I come back, if I do, I should keep shut for the most part.
I once saw a quote somewhere that went something like. " All the greatest saints and avatars and enlightened beings have come and gone unknown, all the others were second rate, those unknowns never communicatied their discovery to the masses. They just melted down in love."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Basilides
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699576 - 06/01/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wisdom is spread through out the earth like rain, and when they collect to create bodies of wisdom, a religious and spiritual tradition is born.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Basilides]
#5699596 - 06/01/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I haven't seen that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699743 - 06/01/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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---Wisdom is spread through out the earth like rain, and when they collect to create bodies of wisdom, a religious and spiritual tradition is born.----
This applies more to certain sects. then the actually religion itself. Such as the Protestant sects of Christianity, or the sects. of Buddhism
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: capliberty]
#5699746 - 06/01/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699760 - 06/01/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is my theory about collected wisdom, look at the Mormons they just pick and choose what they want to believe in the Christian doctrines and then kind of derive there own religion with there own point of views there own prophets and lifestyle.
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: capliberty]
#5699777 - 06/01/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see what you're saying now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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leery11
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5699813 - 06/01/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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the fact that we need religions to connect to God seems to be evidence of God's absence from huamnity's presence.
now how is this interpreted? That it is against our "natural" nature to be spiritual beings? Or is it against the nature of SOCIETY to be spiritual?
If you look at all the smallest tribes, they have their own rituals and religions or spiritual codes... and they have shaman that directly access and bring archetypes back for the people to follow....
yet the more condensed and profit driven humans get, the more they unite together to do pointless things...... the less GOD is actually present in their daily lives.
Religion seems to be simply be a pacifier against the fear of death. Beneath the surface is God waiting to find those who truely seek..... but in the most part it is as if the fact that so many people are religious, but so few people are spiritual denotes that there is something fundamentally wrong with both religion and society.
Society creates religion so perhaps it is society to blame, and perhaps it goes back to something so simple as this: Religions start out as pure spirituality but spirituality is comrpomised for flash and pizazz, such as the matrial art illlustration.
So instead of having every follower of a path being enlightened, such as the case of a tribe that is very close to one another....... you have as many followers as humanly possible, yet only very few of them will be able to attain that enlightened because the religion is watered down so heavily.
It's hard to say.
There is something, if there weren't, we would not have consciousness. If there weren't we truely in all fervent honesty would be better off as animals....... but most of us are stil living as animals and neglecting the higher spiritual prospects of our inner nature that have been buried beneath huge piles of filth, greed, and apathy.
If you pray to God... and God doesn't answer..... you'd better LEARN TO PRAY so that he does, right? Because if you do a hail mary 30 times and you are still the same person...... that should be saying something to you, shouldn't it? Don't stop seeking till you find.... weren't those Jesus's own words? But we don't want to seek we just want to say one prayer and be saved for eternity so we can get right back to watching American Idol.
This is also why I like Buddhism..... even if Buddhism isn't right if you spend enough time in meditation you'll figure that out for yourself anyway, and in the meantime you have an excellent and simple set of rules for eliminating suffering from your daily life. It's very meditation oriented so as to cut out the middle men, the dogmas, and to just experience.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 02:13 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5699830 - 06/01/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nice post. I agree with a lot of it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5700035 - 06/01/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: And this all says to me that I need to go and find my own thing and have a direct experience. I can check in with all the others but in the end I need to walk it alone. Then when I come back, if I do, I should keep shut for the most part.

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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porcupine
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5700092 - 06/01/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you seem to have totally misunderstood my thread. im not worried about anything, im not even a buddhist. i was just curious about what buddhists had to say on this question. i found most of the posts in the thread completely off topic and i wasn't gonna say anything because people are free to respond however they want but sometimes i think it would be better if you could simply let things alone and go with the flow.
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: porcupine]
#5700436 - 06/01/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did I say you were worried? I took the part of the discussion that interested me and moved it into this new thread. 
Also your initial questions were answered in that thread and my "off topic" reply was way down the line.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 04:57 PM)
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leery11
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5701026 - 06/01/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Nice post. I agree with a lot of it.
it felt strange for me to write.
I went from being anti-religion, to freaking out on drugs and trying to be a Christian, to being anti-religion again.
I mean God is fine I just don't know what in the world "he" is, how to get to him other than meditate or maybe get stoned or do LSA.... and frankly I mean.... I went thorugh the motions of reconnecting to Christianity a lot, they bore some fruit but not really.
I just mainly appreciate Jesus's teachings and consider him to be a wonderful role model.
And am still open.
But yet... if Jesus saves... why are the saved watching American idol and driving cattle off to their deaths in their rusty old trucks? Or supporting the war in Iraq?
The saved don't go around with a bumper sticker saying "I'm saved." because they're far out of those head games, aren't they?
I mean not that Jesus doesn't save. I think he does probably... but it probably takes a lot of hard work on your end too I bet.
I'm not sure at all. If there's a God reading this know that I'm still trying, I just don't know what to do to go about it other than meditate or drugs.
Quote:
porcupine said: you seem to have totally misunderstood my thread. im not worried about anything, im not even a buddhist. i was just curious about what buddhists had to say on this question. i found most of the posts in the thread completely off topic and i wasn't gonna say anything because people are free to respond however they want but sometimes i think it would be better if you could simply let things alone and go with the flow.
ah i think you made this post in the wrong thread?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5701066 - 06/01/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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At one time in my life I went through many of the mind gyrations that you are.
My problem was that I had fear of God and damnation deeply programmed into my psyche. It was a hell of a problem and took a lot of shamanic journeys and time to root it out.
With out fear I was free to choose my path. God doesn't concern me now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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niteowl
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5701777 - 06/01/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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With out fear I was free to choose my path
You can't find god if you live in fear.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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kotik
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: niteowl]
#5702088 - 06/01/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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what about the fear of god?
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Telepylus
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
#5702178 - 06/01/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Religions start when somebody witnesses a miracle. Religions start whenever someone actualizes Proof of God. True religions are trying to supply Proof & Miracles. Mostly, they fail. But not always.
--------------------
Law of Love
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niteowl
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: kotik]
#5702216 - 06/02/06 12:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said: what about the fear of god?
Why would you fear god?
How can you be close to something you're afraid of?
I have no fear of god.
The fear of god comes from organized religion. Trying to scare you into doing what they want you to do, rather than what god wants you to do.
God doesn't want you to fear him
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Telepylus
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: niteowl]
#5702361 - 06/02/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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God wants you to obey him. And he wants you to fear the consequences of disobedience.
God will tell you "FEAR NOT" when he doesn't want you to fear him.
It is tricky to define words sometimes, like fear. A better word might be RE:spect, to reinspect.
God is Love, and when you have Love(God) in your heart, then you are essentially fearless.
Terms like this often get misconstrued when taken out of context.
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Law of Love
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niteowl
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Telepylus]
#5702426 - 06/02/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fear and respect are not the same thing.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Telepylus
Babyman


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Re: How do religions start? [Re: niteowl]
#5702507 - 06/02/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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didn't say respect. RE:spect means "to not turn away" sorry for your confusion
the fear of God doesn't come from organized religion it comes from disorganized religion
i'm sure there are a few organized religions you've never even heard of. and they don't endorse fear based consciousness.
likewise, absence of religion often propogates fear based consciousness as well.
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mr_kite
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5702783 - 06/02/06 02:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was always under the impression that most religions existed primarily to persecute the Jews...
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5702870 - 06/02/06 03:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: At one time in my life I went through many of the mind gyrations that you are.
My problem was that I had fear of God and damnation deeply programmed into my psyche. It was a hell of a problem and took a lot of shamanic journeys and time to root it out.
With out fear I was free to choose my path. God doesn't concern me now.
Why would you fear God when Jesus taught that God was a god of love? if God is just and merciful, what reason could there be to fear him? Did you fear the truth?
Edited by Deviate (06/02/06 03:44 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5702963 - 06/02/06 05:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: At one time in my life I went through many of the mind gyrations that you are.
My problem was that I had fear of God and damnation deeply programmed into my psyche. It was a hell of a problem and took a lot of shamanic journeys and time to root it out.
With out fear I was free to choose my path. God doesn't concern me now.
Why would you fear God when Jesus taught that God was a god of love? if God is just and merciful, what reason could there be to fear him? Did you fear the truth?
What a stupid question, considering that I said it was programmed into me. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist Hell and brimstone family. Do you understand now. 
Did I fear the truth? No.Do you fear reading and understanding before you post?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704446 - 06/02/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems reasonable to be afraid of the child-God of the Old Testament.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704487 - 06/02/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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More important to me than how a religion starts: how does a religion end?
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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a religion ends in finding the other shore.
?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704543 - 06/02/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: At one time in my life I went through many of the mind gyrations that you are.
My problem was that I had fear of God and damnation deeply programmed into my psyche. It was a hell of a problem and took a lot of shamanic journeys and time to root it out.
With out fear I was free to choose my path. God doesn't concern me now.
Why would you fear God when Jesus taught that God was a god of love? if God is just and merciful, what reason could there be to fear him? Did you fear the truth?
What a stupid question, considering that I said it was programmed into me. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist Hell and brimstone family. Do you understand now. 
Did I fear the truth? No.Do you fear reading and understanding before you post?
You are responsible for your own mind. No one can program it other than you.
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Deviate
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: It seems reasonable to be afraid of the child-God of the Old Testament.
Old Testament yes, it's unfortunate God doesn't smite people that often anymore.
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704557 - 06/02/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's true when you are an adult. I was a child then and I was unable to rationally think about what was going into my mind. Then I had to do the difficult work of reprogramming myself as an adult. It took many years, but I did it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704608 - 06/02/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: That's true when you are an adult. I was a child then and I was unable to rationally think about what was going into my mind. Then I had to do the difficult work of reprogramming myself as an adult. It took many years, but I did it.
Why did it take so long? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what there would be to fear from a god that is supposed to be just.
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704623 - 06/02/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You lack understanding of basic human programming. If programs are instilled at the right time in childhood with the correct intensity (I lived in fear constantly in an abusive household) it goes deep my friend.
Let me ask you. Why are you not enlightened? Why are you not living each and every dream you have to the absolute fullest? You are in charge of yourself. If it's so easy to reprogram yourself you must be perfection by now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704641 - 06/02/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Because it's easy to change beliefs at the intellectual level but very difficult to change your underlying mental tendencies. I considered fear of god as mainly springing from the intelect (the idea that there is a god, and he is dangerous) rather than being a mental tendency. To me all it would take to change this would be to reason, if god is just I have no reason to fear him.
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leery11
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704659 - 06/02/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: At one time in my life I went through many of the mind gyrations that you are.
My problem was that I had fear of God and damnation deeply programmed into my psyche. It was a hell of a problem and took a lot of shamanic journeys and time to root it out.
With out fear I was free to choose my path. God doesn't concern me now.
Why would you fear God when Jesus taught that God was a god of love? if God is just and merciful, what reason could there be to fear him? Did you fear the truth?
What a stupid question, considering that I said it was programmed into me. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist Hell and brimstone family. Do you understand now. 
Did I fear the truth? No.Do you fear reading and understanding before you post?
You are responsible for your own mind. No one can program it other than you.
Why do kids believe in Santa Claus or waging Jihads?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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dorkus
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704661 - 06/02/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"I considered fear of god as mainly springing from the intel[l]ect...."
Very, very wrong. The subconscious knows no time. No common sense. The fear are rooted in the subconsious and stored in the body.
I bet you have alot of unresolved material there yourself, good sir. 
Most of us do. Why do you think your mary jane trips turned sour? Didn't you leave the substance out of fear?
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704670 - 06/02/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then you don't understand child psychology. Childen take threats seriously, (as in you are going to hell to burn alone for eternity)especially when coupled with constant emotional abuse.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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leery11
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: dorkus]
#5704674 - 06/02/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Because it's easy to change beliefs at the intellectual level but very difficult to change your underlying mental tendencies. I considered fear of god as mainly springing from the intelect (the idea that there is a god, and he is dangerous) rather than being a mental tendency. To me all it would take to change this would be to reason, if god is just I have no reason to fear him.
for me fear of god is an intense and irrational phobia with the caveat of it being impossible to overcome, because God will kill you forever and ever....
it's basically this: you take the intrinsic fear of death in humans and thrust it upon them... you forge this with an ideology so that every time fear of death is elicited the ULTIMATE fear of GOD is elicited... and the two are inseparable... and while they are terrified of death you convince them that this fear will never ever end and be accompanied with intense eternal agony.
instead of being afraid of your mortality you are afraid of unending torment... just like a dog drools when a bell rings. God is woven intricately into the most intense fear imaginable and he stays there, because that's where the fire and brimstone sermons PLANT him.
He is not wedged into the intellect. Hell is not discussed intellectually.... it is a graphic process of brainwashing and overt conditioning..... it is therefore very hard to uproot.
undergoing a sermon at the right age with the right mind is a bit about like being marched into the showers at a death camp only instead of being gassed at the end they give you hugs and tell you that they love you.
except there is no physical threat of death... but the psychological threat is primed and completely active, it overides all sanity and all rational thinking... the physiological process of fear of death is initiated psychologically.... and you have people SWEARING on authority of GOD who you are tuaght to believe intellectually... that this is how it is... because you believe intellectually in God from normal upbringing suddenly you have a man so serious in agony and fear that he is telling you SAVE YOUSRELF, SAVE YOURSELF IT IS SO TERRIBLE.
I mean there's no difference between him telling you you're going to hell to be damned than there is a news reporter saying a comet is going to hit your town in 5 minutes.
But then he offers you a way out, and you pray... and your emotions flip flop into religious ecstacy as finally you are given the way out of this GOD DRIVEN FEAR.
the only thing it isn't God driven fear... it's cult driven fear... it's brainwashing....
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/02/06 04:18 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: dorkus]
#5704676 - 06/02/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_mandelbrot said: "I considered fear of god as mainly springing from the intel[l]ect...."
Very, very wrong. The subconscious knows no time. No common sense. The fear are rooted in the subconsious and stored in the body.
I don't think its necessarily true that fear always persists once the threat is realized to be non existent. ever felt that feeling of relief when you realize something you feared for very long was in reality perfectly benign?
Quote:
I bet you have alot of unresolved material there yourself, good sir. 
well duh, i have tons of unresolved mental problems.
Quote:
Most of us do. Why do you think your mary jane trips turned sour? Didn't you leave the substance out of fear?
I left the substance because I realized how much it was harming me, not out of fear. I weathered some incredibly awful trips with it without succombing to fear.
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704684 - 06/02/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Because it's easy to change beliefs at the intellectual level but very difficult to change your underlying mental tendencies. I considered fear of god as mainly springing from the intelect (the idea that there is a god, and he is dangerous) rather than being a mental tendency. To me all it would take to change this would be to reason, if god is just I have no reason to fear him.
for me fear of god is an intense and irrational phobia with the caveat of it being impossible to overcome, because God will kill you forever and ever....
it's basically this: you take the intrinsic fear of death in humans and thrust it upon them... you forge this with an ideology so that every time fear of death is elicited the ULTIMATE fear of GOD is elicited... and the two are inseparable... and while they are terrified of death you convince them that this fear will never ever end and be accompanied with intense eternal agony.
instead of being afraid of your mortality you are afraid of unending torment... just like a dog drools when a bell rings. God is woven intricately into the most intense fear imaginable and he stays there, because that's where the fire and brimstone sermons PLANT him.
He is not wedged into the intellect. Hell is not discussed intellectually.... it is a graphic process of brainwashing and overt conditioning..... it is therefore very hard to uproot.
Thanks for explaining this, so much better than I have.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704685 - 06/02/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Then you don't understand child psychology. Childen take threats seriously, (as in you are going to hell to burn alone for eternity)especially when coupled with constant emotional abuse.
I wasn't aware you were emotionally abused and I understand now. I'm sorry you had to go through something like that.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704693 - 06/02/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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basically they hack into the fear center of your brain and plant a button in it that can be pushed at any time against your will.
if you could view, symbollically as if tripping, the process of fear indoctrination it would probably look something like that.
maybe a vampire digging into your brain, scaring the hell out of you, then attaching part of his essence to your brain to stalk you from afar.
Fear is authorities ultimate weapon. Planes only hit the WTC twice. We witnessed the act hundreds of times on television. Fear was what allowed the invasion of Iraq. Fear is what allows the war on drugs, which is just as inexcusable as slavery or any other foolish American endeavour.... just as ridiculous, harmful, and EVIL, just as vindicative and senseless... but fear of our children's safety allows it to happen. (incidentally are children are unsafe only becasue of the drug war's existence).
Fear is what got him back in office. Fear is what kept people voting for the "lesser of two evils" instead of electing the third party officials they truely believed in.
How many times did you see "WMD attack in America?" as a credible news headline on cable news leading up to the Iraq war? That was the IMMEDIATE topic of sepculation after 9/11....
Fear is the great motivator. It's sick and sad......... how free we would be if liberated from such things. Hell is something the preachers only throw out when they want you back in their power....... bird flu, scapegoats such as Sadama bin Hussein..... etc....
just thrown out now and then to keep us in our place... to keep us following a doctrine.
It wouldn't be surprising if the church in the middle ages completely and totally invented hell... many Christians who have studied the Bible in Greek context state that there is no eternal hell, that it is mistranslation and misunderstanding and abused by authority.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704695 - 06/02/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Me too. Yet I did and in spite of it I have managed to reprogram that part of my beliefs. It did take a fuck of a lot of years. Many times when I thought it was gone, it would resurface in times of heavy stress. It's a major accomplishment in my life.
This is the very reason you will see me strongly dispute anyone here who tries to claim God is going to punish people for not believing in him. It's my personal commitment to speak against this kind of bullying, just in case there are others (and I know there are) who are still striving courageously to remove this debilitating fear from their lives.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704704 - 06/02/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think ultimately a free mind, a repgraommed mind...
is a mind empty. A mind in meditation. That's how truth surfaces, how God surfaces, how false prophets and devils fall out of your psyche.
anything else is just replacing some form of dogma with another form of dogma isn't it?
I'm not sure. free will is such a strange concept... I am not sure if it exists.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704712 - 06/02/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good question. In the mean time its better to have a life affirming and joyful program then an unhealthy, unskillful, painful one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704716 - 06/02/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said: basically they hack into the fear center of your brain and plant a button in it that can be pushed at any time against your will.
if you could view, symbollically as if tripping, the process of fear indoctrination it would probably look something like that.
maybe a vampire digging into your brain, scaring the hell out of you, then attaching part of his essence to your brain to stalk you from afar.
Fear is authorities ultimate weapon. Planes only hit the WTC twice. We witnessed the act hundreds of times on television. Fear was what allowed the invasion of Iraq. Fear is what allows the war on drugs, which is just as inexcusable as slavery or any other foolish American endeavour.... just as ridiculous, harmful, and EVIL, just as vindicative and senseless... but fear of our children's safety allows it to happen. (incidentally are children are unsafe only becasue of the drug war's existence).
Fear is what got him back in office. Fear is what kept people voting for the "lesser of two evils" instead of electing the third party officials they truely believed in.
How many times did you see "WMD attack in America?" as a credible news headline on cable news leading up to the Iraq war? That was the IMMEDIATE topic of sepculation after 9/11....
Fear is the great motivator. It's sick and sad......... how free we would be if liberated from such things. Hell is something the preachers only throw out when they want you back in their power....... bird flu, scapegoats such as Sadama bin Hussein..... etc....
just thrown out now and then to keep us in our place... to keep us following a doctrine.
It wouldn't be surprising if the church in the middle ages completely and totally invented hell... many Christians who have studied the Bible in Greek context state that there is no eternal hell, that it is mistranslation and misunderstanding and abused by authority.
before the 2004 election, did you see the bush ad "wolves" (try a google search) i simply could not believe that a campaign would use fear to aquire votes that blatantly. it was like "vote for us or else".
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5704725 - 06/02/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most Americans IMO(often because of our sexually repressive and religious programs) live most of their lives in fear (stress). It's easy then to use fear to drive the masses in any direction desired.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5704743 - 06/02/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i am extremely sexually repressed to the point of it inducing extreme mental unbalance. the thing is i don't know what to think about sex.
it's a direct block on my spiritual path.... an undying obsession to the point of hungry-ghost levels. i want it. i don't have it. i can't have it. i want it more. i seek it out in my dreams and waste countless hours for dream exploration just trying to have sex.
then when a real opportunity to have dream sex comes along i think it comes from the devil and fight it away as hard as i can.
sex is fine if used properly but i dunno.... sexual repression has us by the balls at the hands of America........ such a simple way to sell products while never satisfying... never getting to see the full thing.... no wonder kids are sex crazy!!!
no i haven't seen the "wolves" ad... sounds interesting.
what i can say is i find it appauling how sexually loose and evil television is. now if they showed people in love having sex as part of a plot that would be cool... but you use sex to sell fucking PEPSI!!! and ipods... and everything.
it's prostitution. it makes me very uncomfortable. I do not desire real women sexually. I look at them as people. But 20 minutes in front of the TV and ALL THE WOMEN I SEE ARE JUST OBJECTS and I want them.
I used to view all women as objects.... lusting after them... til I went through my TV abandonment and drug experiences... now I just see the whores on TV as objects and even if a real woman dresses up with too much blatant skin exposure and gaudy makeup I still see her as a person.... and generally she looks really sad and empty on the inside.
that's a terrible life to condition girls into.. before they hit puberty they dress like hookers ...... idolizing the sluts on the radio.
I don't hate them, not even Paris Hilton... but I think I'm right in throwing the term "slut" around hopeflly, to help encourage thought and understanding of how I view things.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/02/06 04:41 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704763 - 06/02/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was brought up to believe that sex was evil. My parents wouldn't allow any mention of it and pretended it did not exist. You can see what that would do to a child going through puberty and the awkward feelings of raging hormones. I would be sent straight to hell if I touched myself down there. They had quit sleeping together by the time I was 6.
Lerry 11 , you have put your finger right on it in many ways. Sexual confusion is the norm. Just check the boards.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704789 - 06/02/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I don't think its necessarily true that fear always persists once the threat is realized to be non existent. ever felt that feeling of relief when you realize something you feared for very long was in reality perfectly benign?
The subconscious does not work in the same manner as the conscious mind does. As a child, I was terrified of the possibillity of being abducted by aliens, or of even meeting one. The concept of an advanced alien and the power that it would possess in comparison to my own was hauntingly overwhelming. How do you hide from an alien, how do you run from an alien, how can you even plan agansit an alien's will when it can perceive your thoughts? Simply terrifying prospect.
How do you think such would effect a young child, in a time in one's life where one's subconscious is being actively programmed? The rational mind does not have much dominion over the subconscious, the nature of the distinction between conscious and subconscious should underscore this.
And what of now? The fear of aliens isn't exactly something that can be resolved by realizing that it is nonexistant, because it is not something that can be proven to be nonexistant. God and aliens are thus similar. It is a fear that one can only come to terms with in a very conscious, calm manner. I realized that, considering the nature of the idea of an alien and the potential threats to myself and my life situation that an alien could hold, the fact is that I would be effectively powerless.
I had to accept the fact that, if such a situation were to present itself, there would be nothing I could do to prevent any negative occurence that I could imagine from happening. If the situation presented itself, I would simply have to accept it as it is, and, in the meantime, not concern myself with it, as no amount of preperation or concern for it would help me prevent it in any manner.
How do you think that affected my subconscious mind? The thought of aliens doesn't cross my mind. Interestingly enough, the other night I had a more lucid than average dream in which there was a lot of alien activity, and it didn't actually provoke any fear within me. I even woke up, thought to myself on how cool it was that I didn't freak out, and even gazed out the window a bit. I fell back asleep, and the fact that I dwelled upon it seemed to provoke more alien activity, and I began to freak out more and more. 
Honestly, I think it is rather evident that the subconscious doesn't let go unless you actively pursue transforming it with the conscious mind, and that, even then... it might regress. At the very least, it takes conscious effort, intensity of awareness and focus, and discipline in order to resolve subconscious issues, and quite possibly, a guide, although the person who can more directly perceive reality and will allow honest observations no matter how much emotional resistance is being inflicted upon oneself should be able to manage quite well on resolution, especially (and most effectively) with the assistance of certain psychadelics... 
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well duh, i have tons of unresolved mental problems.
How effortless is it to resolve them, and, if it *could be* effortless if one applied oneself, then why are you not offering transcendence for yourself?
Working on one's mind and how it conducts one's experience of reality, managing greater degrees of awareness, is the single most effective, beneficial, fufilling activity that one could ever engage in, and I even ask myself why I would not make that the upmost priority in my life, as it is the first step in the order of operations, even more notable than sustaining one's existance.
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I left the substance because I realized how much it was harming me, not out of fear. I weathered some incredibly awful trips with it without succombing to fear.
The substance was not harming you, in any way. You associate the experience that you conducted while in the influence of marijuana as being entirely resultant of marijuana itself. The nature of marijuana is that it brings more awareness into the mind, more focus upon the direct experience. The effect that such will have for you is directly evident of the manner in which your mind operates and conducts itself in response to that experience, which thereby creates your experience.
I think you made a great choice by stopping your usage of marijuana if your mind was creating such a negative experience for you while on it, but to not realize what was responsible for the experience (your mind, not the substance itself) will obscure any oppurtunity for you to actually resolve and correct the errors within your mind that are actually responsible.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: leery11]
#5704832 - 06/02/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said: I think ultimately a free mind, a repgraommed mind...
is a mind empty. A mind in meditation. That's how truth surfaces, how God surfaces, how false prophets and devils fall out of your psyche.
Exactly. One focuses on one's experience, as it is directly perceived. This is living in the here and now. The more one's awareness is within the present moment, the less one's preconceived notions effect one's present experience.
Which is the way it should be, as the past cannot define the present. Time is a relative, abstract concept as it stands anyways, which can be evidenced by the realization that everyything occurs within the present, that it is always this moment.
The people who more directly perceive reality as it is presented are the people who more directly know reality. They are the ones who transcend their limitations and most effectively embrace change, the ones who become capable of navigating reality (in actuality, becoming conscious of the fact that they are reality in motion) and most positively advancing the state that reality exists within and as.
The mind itself isn't exactly "empty", but it becomes more and more conducive to direct perception and experience as one removes obstructions that "keep reality out", the more one bathes in reality, the more the unnecessary aspects of the mind which prevent realization dissolve, the result of the Clear Light Of Unmitigated Reality (god I love that phrase and my limited understanding of it ).
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
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Quote:
The substance was not harming you, in any way.
please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.
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You associate the experience that you conducted while in the influence of marijuana as being entirely resultant of marijuana itself.
once again, another baseless statement. you think ive never heard of set and setting? you think im not keenly aware of the way in which your mind influences the experience you have on psychedelics?
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The nature of marijuana is that it brings more awareness into the mind, more focus upon the direct experience.
prove that this is the nature of marijuana and that it has no other affects and no physiological affects.
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The effect that such will have for you is directly evident of the manner in which your mind operates and conducts itself in response to that experience, which thereby creates your experience. I think you made a great choice by stopping your usage of marijuana if your mind was creating such a negative experience for you while on it, but to not realize what was responsible for the experience (your mind, not the substance itself) will obscure any oppurtunity for you to actually resolve and correct the errors within your mind that are actually responsible.
what about my brain? has it no role in creating my experience? once again, i will remind you that i am keenly aware of my mind and how it creates my experience. i was a master at using marijuana combined with mental effort to reach escastic states of consciousness. however, after a long periodic of heavy use, marijuana began to affect me differently. it became impossible to achieve this state regardless of how i operated my mind. there is no reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference as a result of tolerance. to deny there is any physiological component, to deny that the brain reacts in any way to long term administration of cannabis, is baseless. there is no proof that your position is correct. please do not state it as fact. the fact of the matter is that marijuana works by affecting the brain. to assume the brain can tolerate an infinite amount of cannabis with no lasting affects is naive. the following studies all found evidence of physiological changes due to marijuana use:
http://www.cannabis.net/dopamine/index.html
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/content/health-pubs-drug-cannab2-ch75.htm
(the last paragraphs of this report conclude that many of the brain changes caused by chronic marijuana usu are subtle and will not be detected by standard tests, that doesn't mean we conclude they don't exist)
cannabis appears to have long term affects on bloodflow: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050211084701.htm
cannabis and the brain:
http://www.cannabis.net/canbrain.html
"The toxicity of marijuana has been underestimated for a long time, since recent findings revealed delta9-THC-induced cell death with shrinkage of neurons and DNA fragmentation in the hippocampus."
another study which i cant find right now found impaired ability to descriminate between sounds in long term marijuana users. i do not wish to debate the merits of these studies because the only conclusioin we can come to is that there is inconclusive evidence to prove whether or not marijuana has long term physiological consequences. however, there is certainly more than enough evidence to call into question your claim that it doesn't.
Edited by Deviate (06/02/06 09:28 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5706865 - 06/03/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
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please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.
It was a reference to the problems that you expressed. Obviously, burnt plant material is going to have an adverse effect on the lungs. The substance itself was not harming you mentally in any way.
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you think ive never heard of set and setting? you think im not keenly aware of the way in which your mind influences the experience you have on psychedelics?
Perhaps consciously, but it distinctly seems as though your subconscious fucked shit up for you. 
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prove that this is the nature of marijuana and that it has no other affects and no physiological affects.
Prove that it does, as I am not making the claim that there are other physiological effects.
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i was a master at using marijuana combined with mental effort to reach escastic states of consciousness. however, after a long periodic of heavy use, marijuana began to affect me differently. it became impossible to achieve this state regardless of how i operated my mind. there is no reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference as a result of tolerance.
It sounds like other aspects of your life's situation changed, and you couldn't deal with higher degrees of awareness mentally. There is plenty of reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference, one of them being that other individuals have absolutely no problems with frequent, continued use. I see no reason to believe that your mind was not at fault.
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to deny there is any physiological component, to deny that the brain reacts in any way to long term administration of cannabis, is baseless.
There might very well be some effects, but not nearly as exaggerated as you would make it seem. You are simply looking to avoid responsibility for your mind's actions, and the fact that your problems relating to masturbation that you have expressed in this forum is further evident of your mental problems which are to blame.
Unless you are proposing that there are long-term, physiological effects of masturbation as well? 
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(the last paragraphs of this report conclude that many of the brain changes caused by chronic marijuana usu are subtle and will not be detected by standard tests, that doesn't mean we conclude they don't exist)
It doesn't mean that we conclude that they are substansial. The effects you describe (the ones resulting from your mind) seem to be serious and pronounced, not subtle and difficult to detect. I simply don't buy that, after so many years, after so many joints, THC suddenly makes you full of anxiety and have panic attacks, etc. etc. Sounds like results from misuse to me...
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushmanTheManic
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If by "brings more awareness into the mind" you mean it makes you talk like Cheech and/or Chong, then I agree wholeheartedly.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: If by "brings more awareness into the mind" you mean it makes you talk like Cheech and/or Chong, then I agree wholeheartedly.


 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
please. this is a baseless statement and 100% false. to even insinuate that inhaling large amounts of burnt plant matter on a daily bases doesn't hurt you in "any way" is absurd.
It was a reference to the problems that you expressed. Obviously, burnt plant material is going to have an adverse effect on the lungs. The substance itself was not harming you mentally in any way.
first of all i did not express any problems in this thread, i simply said i stopped using it because it was harming me, not because i was afraid. damage to the lungs was the most major way in which it was harming me. secondly, the statement that it was not harming me in any way mentally is baseless. you are entitled to that opinion but you simply cannot state it as fact.
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Perhaps consciously, but it distinctly seems as though your subconscious fucked shit up for you. 
you are free to speculate as much as you wish, however this isn't even relevant to what im saying, nor can you claim it as fact. Quote:
Prove that it does, as I am not making the claim that there are other physiological effects.
do you mean you're not making the claim that there are no other physiological affects? increased heart rate is a a short term physiological affect of marijuana.
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It sounds like other aspects of your life's situation changed, and you couldn't deal with higher degrees of awareness mentally.
my life situation did not change at all, nor did i have a problem dealing with "higher degrees of awareness". i was still able to use mushrooms without problems at this time.
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There is plenty of reason to assume it wasn't a physiological difference, one of them being that other individuals have absolutely no problems with frequent, continued use. I see no reason to believe that your mind was not at fault.
i'm not claiming that every negative experience i had was out of my control. im claiming that the way marijuana affected me changed even when i responded to it in the same manner. even if i remained perfectly calm throughout the entire experience, it was still no longer pleasant. there is good reason to assume this was due to my body building a tolerance. its proven that chronic adminstration of thc can lead to tolerance. to deny there is any physiological component to this tolerance is silly. in addition, many other people have experienced this same type of reaction, where initually marijuana is experienced as very mind expanding and enjoyable and then with long term heavy use they build a tolerance to these affects and are no longer able to enjoy it in the same manner. but none of this is relevant to what im saying because, once again, im not claiming that anxiety, or panick attacks ar entirely physiological in nature. im merely disputing your statement that smoking marijuana was not harming me mentally in any way. the truth is, you don't know this and to claim it as fact is baseless. you constantly point it out when other users make baseless or unproveable statements as premises and then you go and do the same thing.
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There might very well be some effects, but not nearly as exaggerated as you would make it seem.
i didn't mention ANY affects in this thread, let alone which ones i believed may have been due to physiological factors. it is therefore impossible that i could have made them seem exaggerated. the fact that you now admit there might be some affects proves your initial statement is not a known fact and that's all i'm trying to prove here.
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You are simply looking to avoid responsibility for your mind's actions, and the fact that your problems relating to masturbation that you have expressed in this forum is further evident of your mental problems which are to blame.
you are really reaching now. there is no relation here. in other words, you cannot logically claim that because someone had one psychological issue, that all expereinces they have must be due to other psychological issues.
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Unless you are proposing that there are long-term, physiological effects of masturbation as well? 
there may be:
"On July 16, 2003, an Australian research team led by Graham Giles of The Cancer Council published a medical study [4] which concluded that frequent masturbation by males may help prevent the development of prostate cancer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbating#Health_and_psychological_effects
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It doesn't mean that we conclude that they are substansial. The effects you describe (the ones resulting from your mind) seem to be serious and pronounced, not subtle and difficult to detect. I simply don't buy that, after so many years, after so many joints, THC suddenly makes you full of anxiety and have panic attacks, etc. etc. Sounds like results from misuse to me...
wow, how can you say the affects i describe seem serious and not subtle WHEN I DID NOT DESRCIBE ANY AFFECTS? you seem to be assuming that i blame every negative experience i ever had with cannabis on purely physiological factors when nothing could be further from the truth. your entire argument is a straw man. the effects i believe may have a physiological nature are quite subtle and difficult to describe to someone who hasnt experienced them. remember, the statement i was responding to was your baseless statement that [using cannabis] was not harming me in any way. in order for this to be false, all that had to happen was for cannabis to harm me in most the subtle way possible. even if the only thing it ever did was make my memory .00001% worse, your statement would still be wrong. you are free to believe whatever you wish but you cannot make such statements as fact. the scientific data is clearly in dissagreement with you and i am afraid i am going to have to side with science on this one.
Edited by Deviate (06/03/06 03:24 PM)
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nakors_junk_bag
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Icelander]
#5711285 - 06/04/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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events start religion.
-------------------- Asshole
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Ravus
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: More important to me than how a religion starts: how does a religion end?
Communism.
The aspect I like about this is that communism is also inevitable, according to Marx, so all religions will end if humanity lives long enough to see it.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Ravus]
#5713173 - 06/04/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Political ideologies and religions seem to have an equal share of dishonest dogmatism.
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Icelander
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At least.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dorkus
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Re: How do religions start? [Re: Deviate]
#5716039 - 06/05/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey, I just want to say that I believe you are right. Sorry I brought it up. Peace.
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