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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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DMT, what a molecule!
    #568621 - 03/03/02 02:56 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

So I smoked DMT for the first time last night (actually 5-MEO-DMT but from what I gather they take you to approximately the same place), and needless to say it was probably the most profound experience of my life. I still cannot get over the fact that the place I went to was actually accessible to my mind just by smoking some of this chemical. You read reports and you think you understand what it is all about, but you have no idea until you've been there. It is so utterly removed from this physical plane of existence.

You've all heard what DMT does, so I won't bore you. But my question is what do you think this experience means? What is it? Is it experiencing what it is like to die? (I indeed felt like I was dead for the entire experience) Is it temporarily existing in a higher dimension? Is it existing as pure spirit without the confines of the physical body? Any theories, unique or otherwise? I am baffled but intensely interested in what this mindstate was and how it relates to our existence in general, and I welcome any thoughts.


Edited by skaMariaPastora (03/03/02 03:44 PM)


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OfflineCuckoosNest
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568642 - 03/03/02 03:26 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

From what I gather the effects of 5MeODMT and N,NDMT differ quite a bit.


--------------------

"...Three geese in a flock. One flew east, And one flew west, And one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
Ken Kesey


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: CuckoosNest]
    #568663 - 03/03/02 03:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

How so? Does anybody have experience with both and can articulate how they are different and how they are similar? Maybe their mental effects in terms of visuals, feelings, etc are slightly different but aren't they both in the same grouping in that they bring you to the same degree of mind/body separation and transcendence of physical reality?


Edited by skaMariaPastora (03/03/02 03:45 PM)


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OfflineCuckoosNest
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568670 - 03/03/02 03:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i suppose, but I have read/heard that 5meodmt does not produce anywhere near the visual disturbances/hallucinations that nndmt cause. I would like to see some first hand experience people speak up and clear this up though.


--------------------

"...Three geese in a flock. One flew east, And one flew west, And one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
Ken Kesey


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568679 - 03/03/02 04:02 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I just finished reading Strassman's "DMT: the Spirit Molecule" I suggest you read it as well. I personally try to ignore the alien abductions, visiting elves, and the rest of the McKenna BS... but it is a good read.

Meaning, eh? What does it all mean.....
Well, it could be Jungian archetypes.
An alternate glimpse at the matrix of the mind maybe.
A parallel universe... doubtful.

A good question would be "Am I seeing what I want to see or am I being shown something?" I don't have any answer to that question. But I can say that when interpreting an ambiguous phenomenon, the functional aspect of truth can be misleading. Meaning that if one is not careful, one's predisposition will be the greatest influence on the meaning. So, I guess I do have an answer.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568705 - 03/03/02 04:47 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this brings back memories! It has been over ten years since I smoked DMT, and it still gives me goose bumps when I think about it. For me, the experience taught me that there is more to reality than reality. I'm not talking about something as simple as it opened my mind to possibilities. It is more like seeing your reflection in a mirror for the first time and realizing not only that you have a reflection, but what you look like from another direction.

The harder you think about the experience, the more you try to put it into logical terms or relate it to our everyday reality, the more distant the experience will become. Rather than try to understand it, simply know it and leave it at that.

Now to contridict myself and try to answer a few of your questions:

> Is it experiencing what it is like to die.
I wouldn't be surprised if death doesn't feel like the initial catapult launch DMT puts you through when smoked.

> I indeed felt like I was dead for the entire experience
Welcome to egoloss, maybe.

> Is it temporarily existing in a higher dimension?
It sure feels like it. This dimension is gone, donno where that leaves you.

> Is it existing as pure spirit without the confines of the physical body?
I like to think of it as "" became me and I became "". I was everything and nothing at the same time. I could see time as the illusion it really is... there was no past, no future, just ... -smile-


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568725 - 03/03/02 04:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Is it experiencing what it is like to die? (I indeed felt like I was dead for the entire experience)
You felt like someone who had just smoked 5-MEO-DMT. Do you think that an entheogenic explorer who just got crushed by a bus and is drawing her last breath will think "Hey cool, this is just like smoking 5-MEO-DMT "?

Is it temporarily existing in a higher dimension?
It is temporarily existing in a unusual brain-state brought about by a chemical that disrupts normal pathways. Of course it is going to feel weird and unusual.

Is it existing as pure spirit without the confines of the physical body?
Your body is subject to the same physical laws while tripping as while sober. Don't know how you can be "pure spirit". If you were you would not come back when your body finished processing the chemicals as without a connection there would be no way for your body to tell your spirit to come back, so you obviously are still linked, hence not pure.

Any theories, unique or otherwise?
Why do you need a theory? You experienced the DMT state. There is nothing to be gained by layering words on top of that.

I am baffled but intensely interested in what this mindstate was and how it relates to our existence in general, and I welcome any thoughts.
What does our mindset on alcohol or Drano(TM) for that matter have to do with our existence in general? Many drugs cause strange and unusual thoughts and feelings. What that tells is is that we have disrupted normal chemical processes and hence our equalibrium.

There is no ultimate meaning. What meaning you assign is up to you and is completely arbitrary.

I know this response is not the much more fun Mckenna-like reply that you want to hear. Sorry...


--------------------



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Anonymous

Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #568742 - 03/03/02 05:15 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It is temporarily existing in a unusual brain-state brought about by a chemical that disrupts normal pathways. Of course it is going to feel weird and unusual.

it may be an unusual brain-state but it is still one that exists. it may not be a normal pathway but it is a pathway that is there none the less...


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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568746 - 03/03/02 05:20 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I have never tried DMT, and have only read briefly on the subject. From what I read, it sounds like a fuckin scary transition! I dont know if you want to , but would you mind writing your experience? You can PM me if you dont want to write it here. Also, how much does it cost, and is it hard to come by? Thanks.


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Seuss]
    #568784 - 03/03/02 05:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

A couple comments:

Sclorch:
I am currently in the middle of DMT the Spirit Molecule and that definitely influenced my mental set when I went into the experience. I was expecting something resembling death and that's what I got out of it, although "death" is only the English word I use to describe the experience, what actually happened is inexpressible. And I see what you mean about the Jungian archetype, I definately felt like part of some kind of universal consciousness.


Seuss:
"For me, the experience taught me that there is more to reality than reality. I'm not talking about something as simple as it opened my mind to possibilities. It is more like seeing your reflection in a mirror for the first time and realizing not only that you have a reflection, but what you look like from another direction."

Yes! That makes so much sense. Its like seeing everything in the universe from all angles simultaneously. Finally understanding what lies behind this physical world that lays in front of us.


"The harder you think about the experience, the more you try to put it into logical terms or relate it to our everyday reality, the more distant the experience will become. Rather than try to understand it, simply know it and leave it at that. "

Yes, this is very true. I find myself overanalyzing my experiences too much, and maybe I shouldn't. But I think that if you can't take anything back with you from the experience (can't articulate it in physical terms) then the experience only serves as a reference frame, seeing what "lies ahead." If I can attempt to understand it in the context of this world, I can learn so much more from it. Maybe. I don't know.


Swami:
"It is temporarily existing in a unusual brain-state brought about by a chemical that disrupts normal pathways. Of course it is going to feel weird and unusual. "

I expected a response like this, but I cannot bring myself to believe that what I experienced was just my brain getting "fucked up" off of a chemical. What I experienced was something higher than myself, the cosmic overmind or universal conscious or whatever. Call me gullible or deluded if you like, but when I am confronted with such overwhelming experiential evidence such as I received, I am going to adapt my belief system and restrain my skeptic mind to accomodate it.


Although I take all of Terence McKenna's ideas with a grain of salt, I enjoy hearing about them because it is interesting to think about. He is a reasonably intelligent man that made these conclusions after much chemical experimentation. Sure, he could just be a crackpot, but nobody knows that. Its fun to absorb his concepts because it shows you what is possible, what could exist if you open your mind up to the possibility.

Thanks for all the responses.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568867 - 03/03/02 07:27 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I expected a response like this,
Cool! You got that prophecy thang going...

but I cannot bring myself to believe that what I experienced was just my brain getting "fucked up" off of a chemical.
And why not? Please seriously answer this one question:

Why is an experience of other-dimensionality valid evidence of other realities whereas someone else who does the same dosage and ends up freaking out because "There are bugs crawling out of my eye sockets! ARRGGGGHHhhhh!" Is that not an equally valid experience? And what is that evidence of? Altered realities where bugs do literally crawl from one's eyes? Or much more likely the Swami Scrambled Neuronal Response Hypothesis(c)?

Swami's model follows that a little bit of mind altering substance alters the mind a little. And a lot alters the mind a lot - to the point of shutdown or overload which is exactly what one would expect from a brain just getting tweaked off of a chemical. This model works for all substances.

Now let's look at skaMariaPastora's discontinuous model of altered consciousness. The validity of the experience depends on the chemical and the dosage. Only certain chemicals are "holy" or "spiritual" or able to transport one to the other realm.( DXM -bad; mushroom - good!) Too little is not a spiritual experience and too much is well - you tell me!

What I experienced was something higher than myself,
That is not possible. If you experienced something then it was a part of you.

the cosmic overmind or universal conscious or whatever.
Is this the very same cosmic overmind that cannot come up with any out of the ordinary knowledge or predictions to display it's powers? The same overmind that let many visionary indigenous tribes be overrun by technologically advanced tribes? What a pathetic little overmind!

Call me gullible or deluded if you like,
You are doing fine without my assistance...

but when I am confronted with such overwhelming experiential evidence such as I received, I am going to adapt my belief system and restrain my skeptic mind to accomodate it.
No! Let the skeptic in you run naked through the sprinklers of life on a hot summer day.

Although I take all of Terence McKenna's ideas with a grain of salt, I enjoy hearing about them
... as Swami predicted!

He is a reasonably intelligent man that made these conclusions after much chemical experimentation. Sure, he could just be a crackpot, but nobody knows that.
And the Swam is a reasonably intelligent man that made these conclusions after much chemical experimentation. Sure, I could just be a "skeptic", but nobody knows that. I could be the ultimate Brujo here searching for a new student to tame the Nagual...

Its fun to absorb his concepts because it shows you what is possible, what could exist if you open your mind up to the possibility.
Fun is fine, but searching for entertainment is not a search for truth. (Unless you are a regular reader of the Swami's posts where I try to put the fun back in dysfunctional. )


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #568923 - 03/03/02 08:22 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

lol, you make me laugh Swami. That was thoroughly entertaining.

As to tripping experiences being only chemical:
A drug does not make you experience anything per se. Everything you feel, see, and experience is a product of your own mind. The drug is just the mental lubrication (so to speak) that allows the mind to work in different ways. I chose for this experience to be a spiritual one, so it was. The presence of the drug in my synapses allowed my spirit to temporarily escape the body and go somewhere else (or something like that, I don't really know what happened). Other people who did it with me chose to experience it as a recreational high, and they had a fun time and nothing more. If you experience bugs crawling out your eyes, it is because one way or another you chose to have that vision, and the drug allowed your mind to do so. Because I chose to have a spiritual experience, the 5-MeO-DMT allowed this to occur. You have no right to say I didn't merge with the cosmic overmind, because you were not there. I very well could have. Then again maybe I didn't and it was just the drug. I'm going to go with the overmind because that's what it felt like and I'm going to trust my feelings. I certainly don't discount other viewpoints though. That's the whole point of this thread: to get other people's views about the subject and use them in formulating my own. And I definitely appreciate yours.

And the experience depends on neither the chemical nor the dosage. It depends on your mind and what you want to do with it.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568929 - 03/03/02 08:28 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

> I cannot bring myself to believe that what I experienced was just my brain getting "fucked up" off of a chemical.

There is a theory I read not too long back about this. The general idea is that there is an area of the brain that decides how important a memory is. When you get "fucked up" off these chemicals, they are simply messing with this part of the brain causing it to categorize _everything_ as super important. Because you are already in an altered state, the altered state seems even more important leading to all the mystic conclusions.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #568969 - 03/03/02 09:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

lol, you make me laugh Swami. That was thoroughly entertaining.
I am glad you found it so as I am not really mean-spirited.

A drug does not make you experience anything per se.
So curare, doesnt really paralyze you? Cobra venom doesn't really shut down your nervous system and kill you?

Everything you feel, see, and experience is a product of your own mind.
Everything we feel, see and experience is filtered through our perceptions, but is hardly a product. The stars in the sky are not a product of my own mind.

The drug is just the mental lubrication (so to speak)
Please stop that dirty talk. The Swam has a low tolerance to erotic stimulation...

that allows the mind to work in different ways. I chose for this experience to be a spiritual one, so it was.
Guuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrreat! (Tony the Tiger impersonation) However, you can intend on a spiritual journey and have a horror-filled journey (a bad-trip). Now later, you can reframe the entire experience to say that it was "good" or "cleansing" or "necessary", but tell that to someone when you are in the middle of a meltdown and begging for your mommy.

The presence of the drug in my synapses allowed my spirit to temporarily escape the body and go somewhere else (or something like that, I don't really know what happened).
Or if "you" or your ego is a by-product of normal neuronal processing, then of course the greater the disruption, the less the sense of self.

If you experience bugs crawling out your eyes, it is because one way or another you chose to have that vision, and the drug allowed your mind to do so.
Let's settle this point and puh-lease avoid the semantic gymnastics (one way or another? this is a weak argument with a built-in back door escape clause. "Hmmm, well on a deeper level of which they were not aware, they really wanted it." Unless you have evidence of knowing another's deep-seated needs, then leave this out of the equation!).

How many people reading this post had a bad trip and did not choose it?

Because I chose to have a spiritual experience, the 5-MeO-DMT allowed this to occur. You have no right to say I didn't merge with the cosmic overmind, because you were not there.
I think it is in the BIll of Rights:

FREEDOM OF SPEECH, PRESS, PETITION & ASSEMBLY ?
Even unpopular expression about merging with the overmind is protected from government suppression or censorship...

Seriously though as mentioned in my previous post, if there were an overmind would it not have knowledge normally unattainable without connecting to it?

And the experience depends on neither the chemical nor the dosage. It depends on your mind and what you want to do with it.
Shirley, you must be joking!

I (after many decades of meditation), nor no one I know, has ever had a psychedelic experience unless ingesting psychedelics. I have not heard of one single person having a level 5 experience on 0.5 g of mushrooms. I did not trip on 50mcg of LSD, but got going well at around 150mcg. So the experience was both substance and dose related.


--------------------



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #569009 - 03/03/02 10:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The process of being..... hehehe
What we seem to have here is a pride... and the alphas are fighting. Black manes swirling about in the cyberwinds.
Playing Devil's advocate is useful... but it gets annoying. Especially when one thinks that there is no ultimate truth set---> just another ego game.

I think some put too much emphasis on the dose... what about set and setting? The dose will only open doors that are presented to it.



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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #569052 - 03/03/02 11:40 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Oh boy, DMT = mesotec (sp), a very potent strain of salvia divinorum. I've read experiences of both. Just wild wild trips! Maybe if you find some guru or people with similar experiences, it'll make some sense to you.

Do respect the power of both of these hallucinogens. Take too much, and you'll end up in a straight-jacket.

EDIT: wait a sec, your alias has to do with SD??


Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (03/04/02 12:03 AM)


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OfflineProt
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #569056 - 03/03/02 11:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like something that everyone should give a try now or then.. if ya want to send me some of both ill compair them for ya :smile:


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Offlineiangato
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #569127 - 03/04/02 01:15 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i've never had a bad trip......adios. peace.


--------------------
a blurry dot dances among the shadows
bends the light
and fizzles into my pink and glowing mind

-ian gato


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Offlinealphatrion
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #569320 - 03/04/02 06:38 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

And the experience depends on neither the chemical nor the dosage. It depends on your mind and what you want to do with it.



swami wrote:

I (after many decades of meditation), nor no one I know, has ever had a psychedelic experience unless ingesting psychedelics. I have not heard of one single person having a level 5 experience on 0.5 g of mushrooms. I did not trip on 50mcg of LSD, but got going well at around 150mcg. So the experience was both substance and dose related.

What about (mind)set and setting?
What about people having OBE or NDE experiences?
What about people having religious experiences?
What about me having had important elements of psychedelic experiences without psychedelics (for example: being everything at once, knowing everything, great sense of belonging)?

The mind (in my experience atleast) has a major influence on the trip. Maybe this is different for people - there was a discussion somewhere about some people getting profound insights and people just getting nice swirling patterns and colours.

In this context Huston Smith's book "Cleansing the doors of perception - the religious significance of entheogenic plants and chemicals" is of importance. There IS a connection between psychedelics and mysticism.

Swami, you also said something that this 'overmind' or 'god' is pathetic because it doesn't appear to protect from harm. That's an old theological problem - why didn't he/she/it intervene in the holocaust or what about the existence of evil. My preferred answer to this is the same answer that is given by aldous huxley's novel "Island". Your answer is that such an god/overmind does not exist. I find it interesting to read the various theologists (that came up with other answers. For example look up theodicy, evil and god.

I think you sceptic approach is very usefull for this field, but some things (love, death, good, evil etc.) can be only be understood through the realm of poetry, religion or (psychedelic)experience. What did you think of the movie Contact in this regard?

What does the concept transrational mean to you - is it the same as prerational or magical? Is there such a thing? Look up Ken Wilber and his pre/trans fallacy.


Edited by alphatrion (03/04/02 07:14 AM)


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #569338 - 03/04/02 07:49 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I remember Murple saying that 5MEODMT and NNDMT are very different drugs



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