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OfflineTeRzMaStA
Psilocybin Pimp

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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #569339 - 03/04/02 05:49 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

"The Swam"
heheh you reffered to yourself in the third person. That's amusing.


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Think for yourself; Question Authority

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #569455 - 03/04/02 09:31 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

Swami, you also said something that this 'overmind' or 'god' is pathetic because it doesn't appear to protect from harm. That's an old theological problem - why didn't he/she/it intervene in the holocaust or what about the existence of evil.
Not at all the same thing and not theological. God protecting is different than contacting the overmind on DMT. In the Amazon, some tribes use Ayahuasca (DMT+Harmaline) to divine knowledge on good hunting, weather, and the intentions of neighboring tribes. Same with entering the Dreamtime or contacting Mescalito.

My point is that these indigenous tribes have been overrun by technological cultures who are not consciously attempting to contact the overmind; hence the prophecies and warnings that they seek are useless.

Can't compare this mindset with a merciful God overlooking all.

In this context Huston Smith's book "Cleansing the doors of perception - the religious significance of entheogenic plants and chemicals" is of importance. There IS a connection between psychedelics and mysticism.
A decent, but rather dry book IMHO. Smith's conclusion is not factual, but hypothetical, so it is not correct to state flatly that there is a connection. There is no mention in the book of temporary psychosis which is at the other end of the spectrum.

What did you think of the movie Contact in this regard?
Contact was entertaining, but weak. Sagan obviously reverses his hard stance to appease the believers and gain a wider audience. I will start a new thread on SETI, one of Sagan's pet projects.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (03/04/02 04:27 PM)

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Offlinealphatrion
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #569516 - 03/04/02 10:37 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

My point is that these indigenous tribes have been overrun by technological cultures who are not consciously attempting to contact the overmind; hence the prophecies and warnings that they seek are useless.

I strongly disagree with your reasoning that the fact that they are overrun means that their prophecies/gods are useless. You can disagree wether the christian god is similar or not to the 'overmind', but i wanted to bring in theodicy because it is important to know the meaning of god if you want to talk about it/him. This overmind people experience is not something that you can expect to protect as you are implying. I what people are experiencing you find of no value or pathetic i think that is not something for you to say but for the people themselves.


Smith's conclusion is not factual, byt hypothetical, so it is not correct to state flatly that there is a connection

If there is no connection why am i experiencing a connection? Also since you are talking about the other end of the spectrum: what about Ken Wilber's debut: "The spectrum of consciousness" in which he describes this connection?

Contact was entertaining, but weak. Sagan obviously reverses his hard stance to appease the believers and gain a wider audience.

Sagan was dead when the movie was made, the book is a bit less soft. Sagan was a sceptic yes, but he acknowledged that there was a mystic part of religion that is inherent to a human being - this is what i was referring to in the movie. I didn't think it was entertaining and weak and left a deep impression on me. I think science and religion are two legitimate modes of 'thinking' and understanding of our universe.

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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #569696 - 03/04/02 02:30 PM (22 years, 1 day ago)

The difference described in the two sorts of DMT could be coused by the strength. If I am correct, 5-MEO-DMT is 5 times less as strong as the NNDMT. So that could explain why on 5MEO the visuals seem to be less, you just didnt dose enough!
Except for the strength, I havent read about any real differences in experience.

To The Holy Swam:
You must take for consideration that our perception of reality is also only coused by interacting chemicals in our brain.
If you take a psychedlic, you simply change the perception. This would mean that a psychedelic state is as much real as the reality we percieve. The reason people get so fucked up is becouse the state is unusual. The brain is trying to find a way to interact with the new chemical.

On psychedelics the brain activity rises, this could explain the experience of higher self. I dont know how the brain activity is effected by DMT, but it wouldnt suprise me if this is enourmus.
Since only ten percent of the brain is used normally, I find it to be highly assumable that when the activity is effected in some way, the perception also changes, and could get into spiritual level. Since this reality is also a chemical induced perception, spiritual experiences could also be (partly) depended on the brain.

The cosmic overmind doesnt do anything in this world that is reality chancing, couse it isnt needed. This world is an illusion, constructed by our minds. Seperation and suffering is a part of the illusion. It is just an experience, why interfere with it?
And all the tribes are of course part of the overmind.

A cobra poisening you is also part of the illusion. You chose for it to excist, and be, for this reality, be terminal to human.

Do you have proof the stars in the sky are not a product of your own mind?

The reason your world seems to be so highly material is becouse you made it this way. As long as you believe this is the truth, it will be your world.
And why would you want to live in a world with limited possiblities? Whats the use for it? Isnt it only an ineffective use of your "powers"? If you could do anything, why would you limit yourself?
Now dont asume you can instantly switch to miracle mode. It has probably taken much efford to get into this state, so it probably also does to get out of it.


Sorry for getting a bit off topic in some parts, just needed to :smile:


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its all placebo

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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #569714 - 03/04/02 02:53 PM (22 years, 1 day ago)

5-MeO is a lot more potent than nnDMT, so you don't have to smoke as much to get the same intensity of effects. But I doubt this is the reason for the subjective differences.

I liked how you worded how psychedelics effect the brain. That's right on in my opinion. Drugs are tools that allow our brains to perceive our world differently. This could be a spiritual experience if you allow that message to come across, but if you are convinced it is chemicals, then it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I've found bad trips to be your mind simply not accepting this new way of perceiving. You become afraid and this fear is just a downward spiral in which you experience whatever negative thoughts you think.

And I agree, the cosmic overmind isn't something that meddles in human affairs, it just IS. It is how everything in this universe is put together. It has no power to act, only to be.

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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570211 - 03/05/02 02:46 AM (22 years, 17 hours ago)

Sorry for the disinformation on dmt...I asumed 5meo was the weaker one since its effects are describes as less (in this thread).

You could also exlpain the difference in experience by the fact that on spiritual level, their are many different realms and thoughtworlds. With thinking you travel through these states, and this explains the association with your own thoughtworld.
When you have a bad trip, you just went in the wrong direction.


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its all placebo

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570262 - 03/05/02 04:42 AM (22 years, 15 hours ago)

I strongly disagree with your reasoning that the fact that they are overrun means that their prophecies/gods are useless.
Disagree all you want. History backs up my point. It is NOT my opinion that many entheogenic cultures have been wiped out.

This overmind people experience is not something that you can expect to protect as you are implying.
I expect and imply nothing! Most ayahuascueros and brujos claim precognitive powers, but these powers have not protected a single tribe from technological onslaught.

I what people are experiencing you find of no value or pathetic i think that is not something for you to say but for the people themselves.
Where did I say the experience had no value? Once again someone inserts words that I did not utter. Why the need to do that? Can't your arguments stand on their own without fabrication?

If there is no connection why am i experiencing a connection?
If there was a connection, then why did I not experience it on my many voyages? WHy can one not bring back any special knowledge from this connection? Wh do trippers that have connected commit the same sins as non-connectors?

o since you are talking about the other end of the spectrum: what about Ken Wilber's debut: "The spectrum of consciousness" in which he describes this connection?
What about it? It is one man's opinion.

hink science and religion are two legitimate modes of 'thinking' and understanding of our universe.
Please explain how religion is a form of thinking.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinealphatrion
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570409 - 03/05/02 10:01 AM (22 years, 9 hours ago)

Ok Swami, i apologize if i misread you but i also feel that you are misreading my arguments. I really value your comments although i find them a bit irritating sometimes. I think the main problem in our little communicationproblem lies in the distinction between usefull and meaningfull. Because of the importance you assign to usefullness (which i agree is important) i think you don't see the meaningfullness.

If there was a connection, then why did I not experience it on my many voyages?
I am surprised to find that you don't find this connection, i thought this was common. Have you ever had religious experiences to compare psychedelic experiences with?

About Ken Wilber, in case you didn't know he is one of the main figureheads in the transpersonal psychology field (the area that researches out of the ordinary states like religious and psychedelic states). He has the most succesfull theory about human consciousness that is currently under much debate. I therefore value his opinion on the matter highly. But this is not a strong argument using an authoritive argument... but i used it becasuse the real answer lies in research (transpersonal psychology).

Please explain how religion is a form of thinking.
I was saying 'thinking' and understanding (don't misinterpret me) - i view religious practice as understanding without rationalizing (emotional felt)... so without active (like we do on this forum) thought but rather something passive and i view science as a more active object oriented way of thinking. Both 'methods' give us a better balanced picture of everything. That's the way i see it... you can disagree of course... the main point is that i see religion not as 'usefull' but as 'meaningfull'. Usefulness is not relevant in this regard but understanding (and sometimes accepting) is. Do you understand my way of thinking and my distinction between usefullness and meaningfullness? This distinction for me is like i said evident in the movie Contact and the Huxley novel Island. In the latter there is an entheogenic culture that gets wiped out and they know it and they understand why it happens.
Thanks for your time and answers!

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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570413 - 03/05/02 10:08 AM (22 years, 9 hours ago)

"i view religious practice as understanding without rationalizing"

exactly.


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570471 - 03/05/02 11:27 AM (22 years, 8 hours ago)

That's the way i see it... you can disagree of course... the main point is that i see religion not as 'usefull' but as 'meaningfull'. Usefulness is not relevant in this regard but understanding (and sometimes accepting) is. Do you understand my way of thinking and my distinction between usefullness and meaningfullness?

I understand what you are saying. My take is that meaningfullness is a mere trick of light and shadow with no substance. Meaningfullness is merely a perception not rooted in reality; whereas usefulness is reflected in the outer world.

Survival, for example, is quite useful.

When someone sees a disfigurement in tree bark and says " Look, it's Jesus!" they see some sign from God. Another may see just a diseased tree.

Let's take a romatic relationship. "Oh, she is the most beautiful woman in the world *sigh*. Her laughter is like bells tinkling in a gentle zephyr." A short time later: "What did I ever see in that lying bitch?" The meaning moves all over the place from moment to moment; a mere will-o-the-wisp.

Or in another example, someone has a mystical experience of cosmic oneness, then the next day fights with his wife, cuts someone off in traffic, steals some office supplies from work, etc.

In the Swami world-view, meaningfulness is irrelevant in a search for truth and not all that interesting to me. Truth should be universal and constant, not localized and wavering.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570530 - 03/05/02 12:36 PM (22 years, 7 hours ago)

Everyone seeks truth in different ways. We all arrive at the same place in the end, so why sweat the means of travel? Just go with whatever makes the most sense to you.

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Offlinealphatrion
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570616 - 03/05/02 02:42 PM (22 years, 5 hours ago)

In the Swami world-view, meaningfulness is irrelevant in a search for truth and not all that interesting to me. Truth should be universal and constant, not localized and wavering.
I really appreciate your clear reply. You say that meaningfulness (or the search for meaning) in the Swami worldview is irrelevant because truth should be universal and constant (correct me if i'm wrong).

I have two questions about this:
1] Why should the truth you are seeking be universal and constant instead of changing like a chameleon.
2] For me the search for meaning automatically is associated with the search for truth. You seem to be more oriented on the more scientific/practical endevour, does this mean that you prefer not to answer or pursue questions of meaning (because there is no constant meaning)? OR does this mean that you feel everyone should do this for him or herself and there is no use communicating about this because it is different on every occasion - so there is no constant therefore it is no (usefull) truth.

My take on this is that i think it is very useful to talk about meaning(fullness) because i think it has both (meaning)substance and (usefull)substance. Granted you cannot produce cold fusion with it but you can create peace in someone's life. Also saying that one is satisfied with life without 'objective' meaning but that life was just 'good' is also a form of creating meaning. It's all in the head everchanging but with its own dynamics and rules. I do not think there is no structure or meaning in the meaning itself... it just less tangible. Poets can handle it fine apparently.
I think one problem you have with meaning is that some people attach more meaning to arbitrary things causing them to be dictate their version of the meaning/truth to others. This is something to fight against and the age of enlightenment did a good job in the western world. However it was also the cause of the disenchantment of the world (Max Weber)... God was killed and with it the orientation on meaning as something meaningful and therefore useful. Everyone should be FREE to create his own life without the load of religion (humanism/liberalism), but what to do with this freedom and why? The only thing that was left was the usefullness orientation, goals, means to an end: an moral flatland.

I don't have a problem with an everchanging meaning, it is not meaningless for me but beautifull, its also a bit frightening because it suggests that i as a person will change and die. But if i look carefully i see that this is beautiful and nothing to be afraid of... if i look even further i see an eternal spirit and i see god. Do God and this eternal spirit therefore really exist? No they are real and the are not real at the same time.... they are just as real as me saying that i am a person, it is a conceptualization... a word.

Maybe you disagree with the comparison but i like to compare this religous searching with the search for words and language to express yourself. You argue that use of labels like ufo, aliens, overmind on religious experiences is unnecesary and even harmful and limiting. In a way this can be the case.
I argue that use of symbols like eternal spirit, god, aliens, ufo's without mistaking them for real world objects but seeing them as something unworldly but yet tangible is a necessary step in our evolution.
There was a time man didn't use language, so ideas were difficult to express... somehow the mind developed with or without mckenna's mushroom and more complex notions were possible... where once there was no conception of self and other and the outside world, there appeared to be seperate objects.... labeling these objects and shifting them around in the mind created language. By experimenting, trial and error our ancestors began to use simple words to convey the inner world meaning they were experiencing. Language made culture and society possible.
In this way i think the conceptualization of 'mystical' inner world structures that are not as easy to pinpoint as the previous static objects will lead to an new advance in our culture. If you use these new conceptualizations as static objects you essentially do the same as conservatives or religious fanatics do with language... the bible is reduced to words that have to be memorized and are solid truth. The West is the great satan, skeptics are wrong, believers are naive... we must grow beyond language. The search for truth lies in the direction of meaning not in the direction of predictability and control. But how do we communicate if the real meaning is not in the words? We must 'loosen up', play with language, be tuned in to the 'meaning' sphere.... i think the new language and therefore new possibilities will grow in time.

And now for the million dollar question: are the inner world and outer world separate. I say I don't know, I also think that we not yet have the capacity to answer this question.... I also think it is a limiting viewpoint that the two are seperate... but in the corners of my field of view i can see some connections but it is not yet solid evidence - maybe my solid state shell religion is forming? Better to take the risk than to be confined to the area of individualism, skepticism and science. I don't think i am being naive, copying someone else his view, heard it from my parents.... being sceptic means also being sceptic to one's worldview. This of course includes being sceptic of my viewpoint that sceptics like you are not sceptic enough.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #570626 - 03/05/02 02:56 PM (22 years, 5 hours ago)

Since only ten percent of the brain is used normally,
Here for the millionth time, this myth is erroneously repeated. This has been covered and is just plain false.

This world is an illusion, constructed by our minds. Seperation and suffering is a part of the illusion.
Here he is begging for the Swami "Rock-in-the-Back-of-the Head" Challenge, which no one will take, because they don't even believe their own nonsense.

It is just an experience, why interfere with it?
How can one interfere with an illusion?

And all the tribes are of course part of the overmind.
Whatever... (note the use of the "of course" as if it were self-evident. This is a semantic trick in an attempt to make the reader feel inferior if he cannot see it.)

A cobra poisening you is also part of the illusion. You chose for it to excist, and be, for this reality, be terminal to human. Even a newborn with no preconceived ideas will die from venom. This makes it universal and NOT subjective at all. Perhaps you would prefer the Swami Cobra Venom Challenge...

Do you have proof the stars in the sky are not a product of your own mind?
This is a universal phenomenon, hence objective and not subjective.

The reason your world seems to be so highly material is becouse you made it this way. As long as you believe this is the truth, it will be your world.
Belief does not make things true. They exist or not independent of another's thoughts.

And why would you want to live in a world with limited possiblities?
Desire is not related to truth.

Whats the use for it? Isnt it only an ineffective use of your "powers"? If you could do anything, why would you limit yourself?
Please demonstrate the use of the limitless power for us!

Now dont asume you can instantly switch to miracle mode. It has probably taken much efford to get into this state, so it probably also does to get out of it.
Ah, here was the much heralded back-door escape clause present in the believer's universe.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570649 - 03/05/02 03:23 PM (22 years, 4 hours ago)

1] Why should the truth you are seeking be universal and constant instead of changing like a chameleon.
Are you serious? So one day we might be immortal beings and the next day we are soulless husks and then back again?

1+1=2. This is the same every day the world over. Gravity works the same everywhere on this planet. However religious, mythical truths change from era to era, from person to person because they are based on ephemeral musings. (Hence the 5000+ interpretations of the Bible).

Every religious person has faith in their view of God. However, all or most of them are wrong. This is not Swami's opinion, but the exclusion principle. Jesus can't both be the Son of God and Not the Son of God. (Please don't throw paradox in here as a weak semantic argument!) As no real argument can stand up to the exclusion principle, this point will either be avoided or the retorts will be in some form of double-speak.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinealphatrion
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570656 - 03/05/02 03:38 PM (22 years, 4 hours ago)

I was really serious with these questions - although i was rambling a bit with the language thing. You haven't answered both question 1 and question 2, but don't feel pushed. They were not meant as an 'objective' question but as 'subjective' question - please give YOUR personal answer.

Remember that in THIS thread we are not talking about religion as a belief system, but about using archetypes to describe something that is not the description itself. For example when someone uses the word I experienced the overmind, he didn't really experience an objective overmind but the word and the imagery best fitted his experience. To understand the experience you have to use the best words AND be aware that it doesn't point to a real world object. Do you understand what I am saying or do you prefer to see this as doublethink or a weak argument? I cannot do better than this sorry, maybe better next time.

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OfflineGrubber420
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570659 - 03/05/02 03:45 PM (22 years, 4 hours ago)

in response to swam's statement a while back....
"I (after many decades of meditation), nor no one I know, has ever had a psychedelic experience unless ingesting psychedelics. I have not heard of one single person having a level 5 experience on 0.5 g of mushrooms. I did not trip on 50mcg of LSD, but got going well at around 150mcg. So the experience was both substance and dose related. "

Actually it is a proven scientific fact that ther Pineal Gland (located underneath the brain) not only controls the release of Melatonin but also 5-Meo-DMT. I have heard that a specific kind of meditation can release 5-Meo-DMT (Woodstock '69 video/book), but that isn't a reliable source. The way i have heard to have a full blown psychedelic experience without any drug, is Light deprivation for 2 weeks, this counters the release of melatonin from the pineal gland, and starts to produce and release more 5-Meo-DMT, though i don't have the time or ability to quit my job and schooling to test this, i have read a few journals, and anyone who has had true light deprivation for 2 weeks, seems to have hallucinations, egoloss, and other 5-Meo-DMT effects.
I will be posting some sources in a few minuntes, i just have to find them in my history, so you can read about it yourself. And Swam, i love debating and think it is a good thing, but don't automatically assume something isn't possible just because it hasn't happened to you.




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"Shit bitch they don't call me hot thunderpussy lips for nothing!"

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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: alphatrion]
    #570664 - 03/05/02 03:54 PM (22 years, 4 hours ago)

I thought that was a really good post alphatrion, you hit on a lot of good ideas. Props to you.

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OfflineSofaJesus
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570666 - 03/05/02 03:55 PM (22 years, 4 hours ago)

See the problem here is that Swami has Text book after endless Text book to back up his arguments...Sure if a rock hits me in the back of the head it's gona hurt and 1 + 1 = 2 --That's complety obvious. We see it everyday and touch it all the time....

The other side of this argument is a bunch of people reaching for the stars and dreaming of an existence that we have not tapped into, yet we still have the ability to dream about --- Didn't someone once say that dreams can come true....

Swami you got the Text book with the good hard facts and you keep telling a bunch of dreamers to stop pointing at the stars just cuz they can't prove what might be over the rainbow......

Just because you dream doesn't make you wrong... you shouldn't kill hope -- all of us are looking for equality... where not talking about forcing a belief system on people --- I just wanna know what might be out there

Anyways just because this world makes complete solid sense doesn't make it real -- I'm not gonna jump off a roof anytime soon --- but I'm not gonna tell a bunch of poeple to stop dreaming

Keep on dreaming and maybe will see the light -- but just remeber Swami has got a point with a rock in the back of your head


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #570689 - 03/05/02 04:27 PM (22 years, 3 hours ago)

1+1=2. This is the same every day the world over. Gravity works the same everywhere on this planet. e.t.c.

have you ever played with the idea that the "eternal laws" are nothing but universe's habits? if the universe was eternal then, maybe, this anthropocentric metaphor would be appropriate... C.S. Lewis once remarked, "To say that a stone falls to earth because it is obeying a law makes it a man and even a citizen."

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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: DMT, what a molecule! [Re: Swami]
    #571308 - 03/06/02 07:01 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Here for the millionth time, this myth is erroneously repeated. This has been covered and is just plain false.
Allright, do you know were I can read more of this?

Here he is begging for the Swami "Rock-in-the-Back-of-the Head" Challenge, which no one will take, because they don't even believe their own nonsense.
Can you explain whats nonsense about it?
What is the use of your rocky thing? It only demonstrates the illusion.

How can one interfere with an illusion?
I dont know.

Whatever... (note the use of the "of course" as if it were self-evident. This is a semantic trick in an attempt to make the reader feel inferior if he cannot see it.)
I was not aware of it at that time. Sorry if it made you feel uncomfortable

Even a newborn with no preconceived ideas will die from venom. This makes it universal and NOT subjective at all. Perhaps you would prefer the Swami Cobra Venom Challenge...
It will die in your universe.

This is a universal phenomenon, hence objective and not subjective.
You experience this "universal" phenomenon, right?
How can you know if it is being experienced, if your not here?

Belief does not make things true. They exist or not independent of another's thoughts.
Any proof?
Ever wondered why this worlds is so material?

Desire is not related to truth.
Everything is related to truth.

Please demonstrate the use of the limitless power for us!
I am.
Or should I say we?

Ah, here was the much heralded back-door escape clause present in the believer's universe.
It seems like your using it too.


1+1=3

If you have one object, and you dublicate this object, you have two objects. These two objects together, could be viewed as a third object.


--------------------
its all placebo

Edited by Divine_Madness (03/06/02 07:05 AM)

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