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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Scepticism
    #1077440 - 11/22/02 06:49 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

one has to be sceptical on scepticism, or one can fall for the scientific dogma.

remember: logic is a system. a human construct as much as religion is (don't tell them, I told you this)

there are things that are true that are unprovable


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Anonymous

Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077448 - 11/22/02 06:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)


there are things that are true that are unprovable


according to swami belief, this statement is not true, why? you have no proof  :tongue: 


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077520 - 11/22/02 07:34 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

My own philosophical tautology has always been:" you can't doubt the existence of doubt, cauz by doing so you serve only to bring  the very same concept into existence by doubting" did that make anys sense? :grin: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077534 - 11/22/02 07:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with you.

Sometimes people let the system of logic control their perceptions, instead of realizing that they are the ones who should use that system as a tool, not the other way around.  :tongue:   


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Edited by Adamist (11/22/02 07:44 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1077543 - 11/22/02 07:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

this statement is not true, why? you have no proof
something which cannot be proven is not necessarily wrong, there is a proof for that


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1077562 - 11/22/02 07:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think you're right. That's EXACTLY what Swami would say (my apologies if I'm wrong Swami). But it's such a great point. How can you possibly know that "there are things that are true that are unprovable"??? Yes, that statement might be true, but how can you KNOW that? You can't, and stating it as fact is just as silly as me saying that I know for a fact that anyone who has done drugs is going to hell. You can't prove me wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm right, does it?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077565 - 11/22/02 07:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"something which cannot be proven is not necessarily wrong, there is a proof for that"

I agree with the first part of the statement!  :laugh:

But how can anyone possibly prove it?  :confused:


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/22/02 08:03 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scepticism [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1077586 - 11/22/02 08:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yes, that makes perfect sence.

Although, I am not talking about doubting the doubt here, but doubting the "official doubters", who often are just scientific dogmatists.

"Scepticism" comes from the Greek word "Skepsis", which is the thought process. Being "sceptical" means roughly to think about something (not just accept it).

Now, "thinking" does not necessarily mean you have to use the symbolic, scientific, logical thinking. There are other thinking modes, too (maybe we have not even experienced some of them yet).

Logic is a very good system, especially for the materialistic point of view. One should not restrict himself to this thinking though. There are areas that this tool is simply inappropriate, and will provide you with erroneous results. Push logic to the limits and will get paradoxes. Or just try using logic to understand some forms of art, it is like trying to use a calculator to prepare dinner.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scepticism [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1077598 - 11/22/02 08:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

But how can anyone possibly prove it?
Well, Goedel proved that in any axiomatic system (such as logic), there are things that are true, that cannot be proven, e.g. something is either true or false. There is no proof for that, although logic is based on this being true.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scepticism [Re: Adamist]
    #1077620 - 11/22/02 08:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

instead of realizing that they are the ones who should use that system as a tool, not the other way around
well, it seems you cannot use something without being used by it. For example, when you use drugs to have fun, drugs also use you (you are forced to have fun in the way the drug wants). Abusing logic will lead you being abused by logic, end up machine-like, mechanical, losing your humanness. In other words, losing your soul.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077653 - 11/22/02 08:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"there are things that are true, that cannot be proven, e.g. something is either true or false"

Are you sure that's "true"?  How do you know?  :grin:

Just having fun... reply not required. 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1077725 - 11/22/02 09:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Isnt scientific dogmatism an oxymoron? I thought science, by definition was anti-dogmatic?
If this is true, then anyone who practices dogmatism is not practicing science.

I think that science and logic can be thought of as very usefull fictions.

I also think that they are our best bets in understanding the world around us next to direct perception.



--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Scepticism [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1077741 - 11/22/02 09:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Or just try using logic to understand some forms of art, it is like trying to use a calculator to prepare dinner.

-I like that.

When I take tests, I always think that the answer could be right and it could be wrong, but what should I choose- True or False? I always fail tests.

  :frown:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Scepticism [Re: David_Scape]
    #1077748 - 11/22/02 09:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

To me, it's all about finding the balance between logic and intuition. I don't claim to have found this balance; it's an on-going process... Science as a system is efficient, but like ANY system, the people using it can distort it, many times unknowingly.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Scepticism [Re: Adamist]
    #1077770 - 11/22/02 09:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is in the eye of the beholder.

........like most things.  :tongue: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Scepticism [Re: Murex]
    #1077794 - 11/22/02 09:34 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I feel the same way adamist


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scepticism [Re: Adamist]
    #1077994 - 11/22/02 11:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The many $100,000,000 Las Vegas hotels were built by people using intuition and hunches. So much for that theory.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Scepticism [Re: Swami]
    #1078129 - 11/22/02 11:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I can't wait to get my consciousness balanced and lateralized so I can build hotels in Las Vegas...  :tongue: 


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1079471 - 11/23/02 03:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"there are things that are true that are unprovable"

Perhaps, but you can never know these things for sure, believing in them would be stupid. There are many more things that are false that are impossible to prove.

For most of the paranormal, mystical, crazy things that people discuss, there are far more plausible explanations that one can come up with logically.

Why do people choose the more bizarre explanation? Because they like that one better. It's more interesting, and they want it to be true.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Scepticism [Re: Swami]
    #1079474 - 11/23/02 03:49 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The many $100,000,000 Las Vegas hotels were built by people using intuition and hunches.
pretty good example for where logic is essential, now if you could give us some examples where logic does not fit...


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