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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7856821 - 01/09/08 11:04 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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To answer the original question there are a few things that make LSD "so hard to make" for the average "joe":
1) Acquisition of precursors: Pure LSD precursors are impossible for the average person to get; these are guarded, in a government safe, deep in the bowels of the earth, by various electronics defences, Navy Seals w/ mutant German Sheppards, booby traps, trolls, dragons, shittons of paperwork in order to get more shittons of paperwork, bureaucrats, politicians, Jeff Dahmer with a rusty steak knife, and a large bucket of cute little kittens that is ready to be dropped into a vat of molten steel if you so much as think of doing something the DEA considers immoral. (I exaggerate but it's necessary that you see the point; I think you get it now.)
The necessary precursors are only know know to naturally occur in a small number of species of various genera; these are - Ergot (claviceps purpurea or paspalli, a fungal disease that infects various grains, especially rye) - the original source from which Albert Hofmann first synthesized LSD
- Morning Glory plants, including the genera Calystegia, Convolvulus, Ipomoea, Merremia, and Rivea (these include the plants commonly referred to as Morning Glories, Ipomoea, and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, Argyreia nervosa)
- Sleepy Grass (Stipa robusta), a grass which can become infected with the Acremonium fungus endophyte; it is the endophyte which produces LSA
It is possible to extract and purify the various alkaloids from these with common products, however the quantities of raw material needed to obtain practical quantities (enough to make 200mg of LSD) of precursor would be difficult to explain to authorities. specifically - ~400g (~1lb) of Ergot (which is a poison and, while not illegal, would probably require some kind of paperwork)
- ~500g (~1lb) of Ipomoea seeds (how the f*** are you going to explain the need for ~13000 seeds)
- ~100g of Argyreia nervosa seeds (ok, this is not so bad, if my calculations are correct)
- God only knows how much sleepy grass you would need; if it grows locally you could probably figure it out yourself, if not, don't bother.
Lets start with ergot; ergot is poisonous (the gangrene kind of poisonous), so handling it without proper safety precautions is bad. You cannot buy it because it is poisonous. It grows on various grains and is a common disease of the rye plant; if you live near rye farms and can safely collect a pound of ergot from grains then you are good to go. Cultivation is difficult because ergot alkaloid content is highly dependent on the substrate, and cultivating it on anything other that grain will probably not yield any alkaloids. After this you must extract ergotamine with various acids, bases, and salts (procedures can be found on Google).
Moving on to Morning Glory; the problem with MG is that the alkaloids are only contained in the seeds and the seeds are tiny and few in an average plant. Considering it would take ~13000 seeds to get enough alkaloids, you would need to grow a couple hundred plants; if you have a green house or farm, go for it. Alternatively, you could buy 500g of seeds online and hope no one shows up at your door. Extraction involves washing with non-polar solvent (petroleum ether) and extracting with polar solvent (ethanol).
Finally, Hawaiian Baby Woodrose; this is probably the best choice. It's seeds are significantly bigger than those of MG and contain significantly more alkaloids; several plants could be sufficient. That said, it will probably not flower the first year or two, and can only be grown outdoors in warm, subtropical climates, where it will not freeze in winter. Again, there is the option to purchase ~100 seed. Extraction is the same as for MG.
2) Understanding the syntheses: (syntheses: n.; pl. of synthesis) We all know that there are various semi-syntheses available online ranging from the original Hofmann hydrazine method to the current preferred Shulgin method. I would say it is a requirement to know and understand all of these, because in 95% of cases you will need to improvise. Practical organic chemistry is rarely cut and dry; even an experienced organic chemist will have problems and must be able to think critically and quickly to save his reaction. Additionally, you may not have access to some of the preferred chemicals and may need to substitute. In order to truly understand these syntheses you must know basic organic chemistry, basic organic synthesis laboratory techniques and procedures, and most advanced synthetic laboratory procedures. - If you totally understand all the steps, and have done or at least seen all of the steps done (whether it was for synthesizing LSD or something else), then you probably understand ~85-95% of the synthesis.
- If you think you totally understand the steps involved and have only taken general organic chemistry with lab, you are about 50-65% there.
- If you have taken general organic with lab and partially understand the synthesis, you are about 30-40% there.
- If you have no lab organic lab experience, you have a long road ahead of you.
- If you must ask whether you fall into a category, you probably don't.
A good rule of thumb in my book is that if you have never run a preparatory chromatography column, you are probably not ready.
3) Obtaining lab space, lab equipment, and necessary chemicals: This synthesis requires a large, clean, well ventilated work space; a fume hood is highly recommended. Never set up a lab in your home or in a residential area. Doing so is stupid, dangerous, and irresponsible. An unused building such as a shed, barn, or garage, on a farm, in the country, may be a convenient place to set up a lab; remember to ventilate well.
The equipment required to run a successful organic lab includes:
- glasswear (beakers, flasks, adapters, stoppers, pipets, etc.),
- various stands, holders, clamps, etc.,
- stir/hot plates,
- various sized heating mantles,
- thermometers,
- vacuum (either water aspirator or mechanical pump),
- prep. chromatography columns,
- chromatography plates,
- long wave UV lamp,
- scales (preferably analytical, reading grams to 4 or more decimal places),
- melting point apparatus.
These things are not usually considered illegal or suspicious and are available from various places on the net.
Access to an Infrared (IR) spectrometer, Mass spectrometer (MS), Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) spectrometer, High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC), and/or Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS) would be necessary for identification of the product. Any decent 4 year college should have at least an IR and GC, so the best option for most is to find a friend who has access to this; if you are this person, good for you. Most people do not have the money to buy these, as they cost tens of thousands of dollars on the low end; If you do have that money, you are probably not interested in making LSD and what are you doing here anyway?
Now on to the fun stuff, the chemicals. These can be grouped as follows:
- Solvents
- Chloroform (CHCl3) - Deionized/distilled water (H2O) - Diethylether (Et2O) - Anhydrous Ethanol (EtOH) - Anhydrous Methanol (MeOH) - Benzene (C6H6) - Ammonia solution (NH3) in -- Methanol -- Ethanol
- Reagents
- Acids and Bases -- Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) -- Hydrochloric acid (HCl) -- Tartaric acid -- Potassium hydroxide (KOH) -- Ammonia solution (NH3) in water
- Reactants
-- Diethylamine (Et2NH) -- One of the following: --- Phosphorous oxychloride (Phosphoryl chloride - POCl3) --- Anhydrous hydrazine (N2H4) and sodium nitrite (Na2NO2) --- Acetonitrile (CH3CN) and trifluoroacetic anhydride ((CF3CO)2O)
- Desicants
- Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4)
- Gases
- Nitrogen (N2) - Argon (Ar)
Most of these chemicals will be difficult for the average person to get and will probably require much paperwork. The most closely watched is likely diethylamine; one would have to explain themselves very thoroughly for that. Trifluoroacetic anhydride, phosphorous oxychloride, hydrazine, and ammonia are probably next on the list of chemicals that may raise a red flag. Acids, bases, solvents, and gases are fairly common trade in chemistry circles and the least problematic. If you know people who have access to any of these things, ask them if you trust them. If ordering these chemicals, do not put all of your eggs in one basket; split up the most crucial and most watched supplies between multiple companies. Better yet, see if multiple friends are willing to buy them for you.
Conclusion: LSD is hard to produce because (a) the necessary supplies are not common to the general public and therefore can be easily controlled and monitored, and (b) the procedure is so complex that a thorough understanding of advanced organic chemistry is crucial.
Edited by AHoffman (01/09/08 11:11 PM)
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Serial
Cake or Death?




Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 58
Loc: Middle of Nowhere
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7858558 - 01/10/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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On the otherhand, the internet is a beautiful thing. Advanced lab synthesis is leaking into the realm of your average Joe Everyman thanks to the free availability of information and the ease in obtaining inexpensive high end lab equipment from places like ebay. With the half dosen credible and more importantly practical methods of lsd synthesis I've read I think there's problably a few people out there making it without an organic chemistry degree.
Also with regard to your sources of LSA, I purchased 1Lb. of mg seeds from a website about 6 months ago, it was a little over 15 thousand seeds for 15 dollars plus shipping. They were untreated and they seemed like it was absolutely no big deal so that is problably the best precursor you could get your hands on.
I consumed a thousand of the seeds to play with them and I dont recommend it but I've still got 14 thousand of them sitting on my shelf waiting for a brilliant man to come along and invent the seeds in -> lsd out machine!
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Serial]
#7860905 - 01/10/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Serial said: On the otherhand, the internet is a beautiful thing. Advanced lab synthesis is leaking into the realm of your average Joe Everyman thanks to the free availability of information and the ease in obtaining inexpensive high end lab equipment from places like ebay. With the half dosen credible and more importantly practical methods of lsd synthesis I've read I think there's problably a few people out there making it without an organic chemistry degree...
And that's what scares me about street acid. 
Quote:
Serial said: ...Also with regard to your sources of LSA, I purchased 1Lb. of mg seeds from a website about 6 months ago, it was a little over 15 thousand seeds for 15 dollars plus shipping. They were untreated and they seemed like it was absolutely no big deal so that is problably the best precursor you could get your hands on...
Ok, I was being a bit facetious about raising suspicion by buying 1lb of seeds. Still, I wonder if anybody would notice if you bought 1lb regularly, every 6 months; maybe, maybe not.
I do agree that the information is available to everyone via the internet, however I think the reason there aren't many LSD producers is that this information takes too long to learn, and people are impatient. I'm sure there are quite a number of self-taught organic chemists out there, but the majority of people simple don't have the time, patience, and/or cognitive capacity to learn it. It took me more than 6 hours a week for four semesters in a proper environment to get up to the level of advanced organic synthesis. Also, there is only so much you can learn without laboratory experience.
And all of this still leaves the problem of obtaining the necessary chemicals, most importantly diethylamine.
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 2,462
Loc: california!
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7861088 - 01/10/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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i agree, LSD is impossible to make. all of the acid i' ve ever seen just appears.
-------------------- omg really?
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Serial
Cake or Death?




Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 58
Loc: Middle of Nowhere
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: impgl]
#7861639 - 01/10/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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That's why its magical impgl
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Acyl
cyanidepoisoning


Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 4,472
Loc: N.W.T.
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Quote:
shroomben2003 said: From my understanding, you can get ergotamine from a prescription drug called Cafergot. Is this correct?
Those pills are pretty expensive and you'd need countless amounts.
I suppose theres always ways to acquire pharms illegally for no cost but in any other case its probably not even worth it
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Kakkoii
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 22 days
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USE GOOGLE! IT KNOWS ALL!
Any damn questions you have. Ask google and it will tell you how lol.
I've seen plenty of guides making LSD.
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Acyl]
#7864043 - 01/11/08 09:09 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Acyl said:
Quote:
shroomben2003 said: From my understanding, you can get ergotamine from a prescription drug called Cafergot. Is this correct?
Those pills are pretty expensive and you'd need countless amounts.
I suppose theres always ways to acquire pharms illegally for no cost but in any other case its probably not even worth it
Like Serial said, Morning Glories seeds (or Hawaiian Baby Woodrose) are the best way to go. They are inexpensive, and the synthesis is slightly simpler because you don't have to worry about that large group on the amide nitrogen.
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Bolus
Joe Pesci'sretarded cousin

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 14
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7866275 - 01/11/08 06:15 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
AHoffman said: The equipment required to run a successful organic lab includes:
- glasswear (beakers, flasks, adapters, stoppers, pipets, etc.),
- various stands, holders, clamps, etc.,
- stir/hot plates,
- various sized heating mantles,
- thermometers,
- vacuum (either water aspirator or mechanical pump),
- prep. chromatography columns,
- chromatography plates,
- long wave UV lamp,
- scales (preferably analytical, reading grams to 4 or more decimal places),
- melting point apparatus.
These things are not usually considered illegal or suspicious and are available from various places on the net.
Access to an Infrared (IR) spectrometer, Mass spectrometer (MS), Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) spectrometer, High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC), and/or Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS) would be necessary for identification of the product. Any decent 4 year college should have at least an IR and GC, so the best option for most is to find a friend who has access to this; if you are this person, good for you. Most people do not have the money to buy these, as they cost tens of thousands of dollars on the low end; If you do have that money, you are probably not interested in making LSD and what are you doing here anyway?
*LOL* that one cracks me the fuck up. AHoffman, you're an amusing fellow.
I've got all that shit and you're exactly right. Why the fuck would I spend my time making acid and what the fuck am I doing here.
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 2,462
Loc: california!
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Bolus]
#7869953 - 01/12/08 05:34 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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you have an infared spec, mass spec, nuke mag spec etc? fuckin baaaalllllllller!
-------------------- omg really?
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Justice_Fish
Fustice_Jish



Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 2,652
Loc: CebèuQ
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: impgl]
#7870073 - 01/12/08 06:01 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Why does someone need a chromatograph and all these stuffs? Can't someone just put the chemicals and cook?
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 2,462
Loc: california!
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Justice_Fish]
#7870735 - 01/12/08 08:18 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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identification of the product?
-------------------- omg really?
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laidback4sho
legend of a mind



Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 144
Loc: SE Louisiana
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#11407809 - 11/07/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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it's actually not that difficult provided you have all the chemicals, glassware, chromatography column, photographic darkroom, nitrogen tank, and a little chemistry experience. there are two very informative books that i know of that will show you step-by-step how to do it. those books are "The Book of Acid" and "Psychedelic Chemistry". The Book of Acid has diagrams and walks you through the process more so than Psychedelic Chemistry does. Psychedelic Chemistry is way more technical. both books can be bought from ebay and possibly Amazon.com. anyway, a google search will most likely be productive. making LSD can be hazardous, though; poisoning being a major risk here.
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benitoamanito
rad
Registered: 06/18/05
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: laidback4sho]
#11407895 - 11/07/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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just a thought... i know its not really the most practicle thinking, but what about making LSD using lsa pre cursors from like hbwr seeds and what not? me thinks it would be a cleaner trip from actual; plant seeds than from otherwise dangerous fungus... like, a native american source of a trip (seeds) rather than a salem witch trial source (ergot)... just saying.
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Lucidx
No longer a stranger


Registered: 10/18/09
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Loc: Mars...
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Hold on, how the fuck did Albert Hofmann come up with this shit if it's so hard to make?
-------------------- Para todos todo, para nosotros nada
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Lucidx]
#11408405 - 11/07/09 10:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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He was a professional scientist with a lab and the chemicals .
Edited by DimensionX (11/07/09 10:20 PM)
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laidback4sho
legend of a mind



Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 144
Loc: SE Louisiana
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
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benito, the books i suggested tell you how to do just that, in addition to using ergot. read up and you'll see what i'm talking about.
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Harlz
Stranger

Registered: 01/29/09 
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Lucidx]
#11409817 - 11/08/09 07:32 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Albert Hoffman actually did it by accident, 
Theres like 6 different forms of LSD that could have been produced from his mistake as well, and I think 4 of them are un-active and He just got lucky the first time.. ( Not sure if its 100% accurate could have been less forms of acid )
-------------------- no longer with us
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laotzo
Struggling with Math



Registered: 10/15/09
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Harlz]
#11410033 - 11/08/09 08:53 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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google dimethylhydrazine.
it fuels the shuttle, and military rockets.
it is one of the final chemicals in making real lsd from lysergic acid.
it has almost no other applications besides high tech arson.
that is the main issue.
full stop.
if you don't have a chemistry degree, a license, and a lab then you damn near can't get it, and if you have the money for a lab, a degree, and a license, then why make it unless you just want to be a criminal?
laotzo
ps esp when shroooms grow naturally.
L
-------------------- if you can't beat them, arrange to have it done. george carlin...RIP laotzo
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Harlz
Stranger

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: laotzo]
#11410129 - 11/08/09 09:22 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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and DMT is so much easier to extract, with shrooms and Deem who needs LSD
-------------------- no longer with us
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