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PinballWizard
Naive and Gullible as usual

Registered: 03/20/04
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Why is LSD so hard to make?
#5547496 - 04/23/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've had conversations with people where they tell me someone they know is cooking LSD. I try to explain that it requires a degree in chemistry, thousands of dollars in lab equipment, and chemicals closely watched by the government. They don't believe me though, because I don't know anything specific.
Edited by PinballWizard (04/23/06 02:01 PM)
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RandomHero
�.ǝןqısuodsǝɹɹı


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#5547526 - 04/23/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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people are stupid 
its not that its hard to make.. im thinking if an advanced chemist has the right set up and supplies needed he or she provided they have a knowledge of LSD could make the drug
but then again theres alot of stupid people in the world
not that i know of anybody 'making lsd' but i read alot
-------------------- Been you to have any spike, man?.
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DrJ
Shaman


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: RandomHero]
#5547547 - 04/23/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yea, chemistry degree(or being taught by someone with one),chemicals and equipment about $1000+(depending on what tek you use and how/where you get your stuff). I heard that the chems and equipment are harder to get in US. But you'd be amazed byt the stuff you can find with a little knowledge and a lot of research. A home chemist could definately do it. Not that I'd know! :P
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   "Worse?? Or Better?!"
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Jim


Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 20,922
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#5547567 - 04/23/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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it takes time and getting the precursors is next to impossible unless you know some russian mafia or something.
-------------------- Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit! afoaf said: Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.
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fatalerror
ass asscott


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Jim]
#5548619 - 04/23/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Unless I am wrong, the original precurser of LSD comes from ergot fungus, and I believe it is possible to cultivate it. I'd like to see a tek for making LSD, Dr J... I've never seen any beyond bullshit morning glory extractions and related junk... I wonder how they do it.
-------------------- eat poop
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Jim


Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 20,922
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: fatalerror]
#5548625 - 04/23/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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there are tons of different types of ergot... two hundred and something different clavis... from what I understand it would be possible to cultivate.
-------------------- Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit! afoaf said: Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.
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twiggedoubt
twigburst


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Jim]
#5549499 - 04/23/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There used to be teks on the hive about cultivating ergot. LSD still isn't all that hard to make compared to some of the pharmaceticals being made today.
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DrJ
Shaman


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5549779 - 04/24/06 12:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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What wouldn't I give for a ketamine tek that was 'only' as hard as an LSD tek!!! LOL
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   "Worse?? Or Better?!"
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#5550030 - 04/24/06 02:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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LSD is easier to make than many people think it is, but it is indeed very difficult.
The reason it's so hard is multi-faceted. Firstly, chemistry is complicated. I love chem, and I learn fast... but I'm still a total n00b. The most complicated thing I've ever synthesized is artificial flavoring. LSD is at least 5 times as challenging as that.
Secondly, it's blatantly illegal. The precursors to create it are very hard to get. You need to make friends in very shady places to obtain ergotamine tartrate, for example.
Thirdly, lab equipment is increasingly being taken out of the reach of the average person. The DEA is gleefully nudging toward making chemistry itself illegal. Their draconian laws are so hard to enforce that the only way they can fight a war on drugs is by taking the whole fucking science of chemistry down with them. That's a two-edged sword, too. It hurts the drug chemists, yes. But mostly it just does a lot MORE harm to innocents that the government doesn't give two shits about.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#5550292 - 04/24/06 06:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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> LSD is easier to make than many people think it is, but it is indeed very difficult.
So which is it, easy or hard? 
> The most complicated thing I've ever synthesized is artificial flavoring. LSD is at least 5 times as challenging as that.
LSD is much more difficult to synth than a simple ester (artificial flavor). Esters are trivial to produce, simply mix an alcohol and an acid. (There are other methods, such as nucleophilic displacement of alkyl halides with carboxylic acid salts, etc.)
> The precursors to create it are very hard to get.
Ding! We have a winner. Correct! Not only difficult to get, but rarely used for anything else, and watched like a hawk. Even if somebody manages to get the precursors, the chance of getting a not-so-friendly visit is very real.
> lab equipment is increasingly being taken out of the reach of the average person
Also correct! Not only is it getting more difficult to get lab equipment, but the LSD synths really do require a lab, not a kitchen cabinet. Granted, I have seen some pictures of ghetto LSD labs, but never knew if these were legit or some kind of DEA propaganda BS. I know that I couldn't do the synth ghetto style, but I never was very good at using a hardware store to funish my chem lab. Too much pride, and since I never did anything illegal, not enough fear, I suppose.
The chemistry is difficult, but not impossible. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give it a solid 8. Some of the newer methods are a bit easier, maybe down around the 7 range. For reference, extracting from a plant is down around a 1.5, meth is around a 2.5, and mdma would be around a 5 in relative difficulty (to me). W_S can probably give a better estimate than I... he is much better at chemistry.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Seuss]
#5550411 - 04/24/06 08:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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From what I understand, LSD synthesis would not be considered particularly difficult for a professional chemist with a well equipped lab. The main difficulties (excluding the huge logistical difficulties faced when this is done illicitly) are: a)There are often many steps in the synthesis (which generally means low yields). b)The product and intermediates are unstable. Many (or all) of the steps have to be carried out under anhydrous and inert atmosphere (ie. totally dry, with nitrogen or argon piped into the system). At least one of the steps needs to be performed under specific lighting conditions.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DadeMurphy]
#5550486 - 04/24/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The major problem would probably be securing the precursors.
While the equipment would be expensive, I would imagine that it's relatively cheap and common for a "normal" chemistry lab.
Keep in mind this chemical was first synthesized in 1938. There have probably been enough technilogical advances since then to make the synthesis much easier.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: badchad]
#5550507 - 04/24/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is there an online pictorial or something?  I'm just interested in seeing whats involved, and how difficult such a nuts procedure is.
Where does all the acid come from? Do you think legitimate labs are used on the low down? Do gangs make it or just hardcore chemistry buffs.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Feelers]
#5550529 - 04/24/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not sure of your resources, however I'm sure Hoffman published his synthesis in a peer-reviewed journal. You would need a University library to find the original article.
I'm sure some of the other people on these boards (whom know far more chemistry then I) would be of more help.
EDIT: erowid has the TIKHAL synthesis of LSD although it appears to have been written with some brevity (although I can't comment much on that).
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (04/24/06 09:31 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Feelers]
#5550566 - 04/24/06 09:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Where does all the acid come from?
My understanding, which is not always correct, is that there are only a few people across the world that produce it. They make a lot (pounds) at a time, but only every once in a while (every few years).
The original procedure used by Hoffman is very outdated. Here is a newer method: http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal26.shtml
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Seuss]
#5550574 - 04/24/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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What's also annoying is that MDMA is a much easier synthesis than LSD, but is nonetheless just as hard to actually make, because the drug is of a high priority to the DEA. So... the legal resistance is a lot more rabid for those who try to get all the ingredients and equipment needed to make it.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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twiggedoubt
twigburst


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Seuss]
#5550581 - 04/24/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The main chemist got busted, thus the reason for an increase in LSD price per gram of crystal and per sheet. He got life in prison recently, http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/newsrel/sanfran112403.html
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#5550620 - 04/24/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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-it requires a degree in chemistry false -thousands of dollars in lab equipment false -chemicals closely watched by the government true
Like meth, LSD can be made by an amateur able to exactly carry out instructions on a xeroxed recipy.
Some TEKs are so simple you could teach a teenager to do it in an hour.
1...Pour SOLVENT into flask 2...Chill flask in the freezer 3...Add CHEM A and shake 4...Add CHEM B and leave in freezer for two hours 5...Add CHEM C and let come to room temperature 6...Evaporate SOLVENT in the outdoors to yield a powder containing 50+% LSD
Skill level: responsible adult of reasonable intelligence
Lab equipment: Freezer, flask, scales.
SOLVENT = Acetonitrile (highly toxic) CHEM A = Lysergic acid (watched chemical) CHEM B = Trifluoroacetic anhydride (toxic corrosive) CHEM C = Diethylamine (corrosive)
So all it boils down to having access to a working recipy and the right chems, because some TEKs are very simple. Look into methods of protein synthesis. Many of these techniques can be modified to yield a working LSD recipy.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5550847 - 04/24/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Admittedly, this is the opinion of a person who doesn't understand the process... but I think that most average people could learn to make LSD quite easily and quickly if they just had someone to serve a brief apprenticeship under.
It could take me years before I learn enough to know how to synthesize it on my own, but if Hoffman were to take me into a lab with him I could probably be making it on my own within a week (assuming of course the materials were available. They're really the most difficult part of the whole ordeal).
Oh, by the way... I stated that artifical flavors were the most complex synth I've done... I think that's wrong. In retrospect I think it was a synthesis of alum that started from aluminum cans and KOH. Still simple, but a bit harder than synthesizing artificial flavorings in high school, with truly horrid stoichiometry.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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twiggedoubt
twigburst


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5552556 - 04/24/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its a lot more than just the chemicals. If LSD were so easy to use how come they almost never bust labs, but more than 10 meth labs get busted everyday? You can use HBWS or MGS in a micro scale lab to obtain LSA and the rest of the chemicals and be obtained via China. You can probally get lysergic acid via china as well. Being an apprentice is one thing, but I know making lsd isn't as easy as making meth. That recipe, if it is true would mean that making LSD is easier than making meth, cause with meth you need to do an A/B extraction, react the three chemicals, heat, do an A/B extraction, evaporate. I'm not gonna say that it that method won't work, but if its so easy to make how come the market doesn't support this? I also remeber an easy way to make meth with vicks inhalers that was widely published.
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5553020 - 04/24/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm geussing he's meaning that you start with the best precursors. I'd say the more difficult part comes from only having access to the most basic ingredients, and the extractions ect that are required.
Man thats crazy that those two made nearly all the acid. Someones gonna step up to the plate to fill the void though no doubt. In those graphs why is there already a downward trend before they were arrested? Their arrest only made it slightly steeper. It is just me or does that show that it was something else causing the drop - and not their arrest?
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UncleLuke
Crack andlasers.


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5553035 - 04/24/06 10:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Could you possibly use a hit of acid to spawn a cultivation of ergot??
I know if you put mushroom spores in honey it'll create even more spores....
Edited by UncleLuke (04/24/06 10:08 PM)
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Shroomer215
Consumer ofshrooms

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: UncleLuke]
#5553186 - 04/24/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, i think it is a good thing that its hard to make. That way no ignorant people try and make it then sell it without testing it.
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: UncleLuke]
#5553223 - 04/24/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOL Is that a joke?
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mar1juana
Stranger
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#5553275 - 04/24/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i remember some thread by some guy, chinacat was his name perhaps, but yeah does anybody know the location of thees thread or his name perhaps? it was some olderr guy who was somehow knew somethin bout lsd... i just put this in here because it is somewhat on topic and i didnt want to clutter this place with another thread : /
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NickSoapdish
Hypochondriac


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: mar1juana]
#5553308 - 04/24/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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mar1juana
Stranger
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: NickSoapdish]
#5553326 - 04/24/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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thanks
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5553971 - 04/25/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
If LSD were so easy to use how come they almost never bust labs
You are deducing, you are not looking at the facts. Along the same lines its easy for any of a bunch of arab terrorist orgs to send a hitman to get Bush every other week, but that isnt happening either.
Many people make LSD, only the scale at which they can acquire precursors limits the size of their operations to small circles.
There is a LOT of LSD around, but the demand is much bigger, bigger than in the 1960s. You can take a million doses of LSD to let's say New York on monday and having sold it all on sunday. "everyone" who has the bread wants to buy a sheet of 100. Now that is wisdom, but also creates a drought, as do the people who use a whole ten-strip every time they trip.
Quote:
That recipe, if it is true would mean that making LSD is easier than making meth
Voila, thats why I typed it down. You can swap trifluoroacetic anhydride for Carbonyldiimidazole. Or thionyl choride. Or phosphorous oxychloride. If you have Lysergic acid then all you have to do is turn it into an amide. And if you have the right reagents, making an amide is peanuts, almost as straightforward as making soap.
The trick is to get the right reagents, and especially a precursor which is either lysergic acid, or an amide thereof.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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twiggedoubt
twigburst


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5554267 - 04/25/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well 50% LSD mixed with 50% corrosive/poisenous byproducts isn't exactly ready for the market anyway, though at that low of a dose it might not really matter. I'm majoring in chemistry in college, but at this point I really can't speak on what I don't know. The hive is shut down, synthikal doesn't have enough people. For now I'll take your word for it cause you seem to know what your talking about, but this is contrary to what I've always been told, though I do know someone that would know on BL, I'll PM them for their feedback.
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5554376 - 04/25/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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HEEY now Wiccan... that "synth" you posted may create LSD but how much is iso? what are the byproducts? No column? That is why amatures and any one who can get a precursor do not make LSD. Because to make it CORRECTLY requires the knowlege of a master of organic chem,and "artistic" sense of your work, and a willingness to extensively clean ones product using chromatography. Now find the people who have these qualities and separate thosewilling to take GREAT chances with the law. Now subdivide out of that group those who can get precursors and lab equipment.The number is getting smaller. Now put ALL of the requirements together in a place which is safe to work in then you make the LSD. Does everyone see how it bottlenecks? For the reasons outlined only a very few people make LSD. And yes the demand is fueling a low dosage high price condition. WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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Asante
Mage


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Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: whiterasta] 1
#5554635 - 04/25/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well 50% LSD mixed with 50% corrosive/poisenous byproducts isn't exactly ready for the market anyway, though at that low of a dose it might not really matter.
Quote:
HEEY now Wiccan... that "synth" you posted may create LSD but how much is iso? what are the byproducts? No column?
The reaction produces a mixture of LSD base and Diethylamine trifluoroacetate, the latter in smaller amounts than the LSD which poses no health risk in doses normally encountered, from the weakass blotter to the full thumbprint. If you did a sloppy job you might end up with some Diethylamine lysergate or N,N-diethyl-trifluoroacetamide.
The product is definitely ready as-is. If your reagents were pure and your procedure correct you will have a mixture of PURE LSD with a few substances that do not matter. No tars, no iso-LSD, no mess.
Quote:
That is why amatures and any one who can get a precursor do not make LSD.
Not true  Amateurs wont let purity issues keep them from "synthing drugs", just look at the appalling quality of the Meth, PCP and Meth-Cat recipies out there. Amateurs seldom undertake this endeavor because they lack access to pure precursors.
If Ergotamine was abundantly present in OTC pills (like that Meth precursor is) then LSD would be all over the place, in all shades of purity.
Quote:
Because to make it CORRECTLY requires the knowlege of a master of organic chem,and "artistic" sense of your work, and a willingness to extensively clean ones product using chromatography.
Ah you're talking LSD Chemist ethics! The kids nowadays have very little of it. If you don't view LSD as a Celestial Messenger (like we do) but rather as a bigass moneymaker that goes for $10.000 a gram (like your average kid would) then there is no need for chromatography and all that stuff: if the product is only 5% pure its still marketable in the form of geltabs 
Quote:
separate those willing to take GREAT chances with the law.
I'd say more than 1 in 5 here would go for it if he really could. The law only counts when you get caught. This is O.D.D: we are all immortal and untouchable 
Quote:
Now put ALL of the requirements together in a place which is safe to work in then you make the LSD.
I have tried to stop people here from evaporating a liter of industrial solvent in their bedroom. I was labeled an alarmist. People will make it wherever they live, and basically some chems and a tub full of ice are all you need to make it in the back of your car 
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The only thing that matters is the availability of pure precursors and associated stuff.
Look at the TiHKAL recipy. If you think you cannot do it you are selling yourself short, Whiterasta. I think you can be meticulous enough and I know you're intelligent enough. (and then some!)
If you can get the chems, associated stuff and a working procedure on a xeroxed sheet of paper most people of IQ 120 and up, with a scientific mindset, can study LSD synthesis and precursor acquisition and end up with a small homemade batch of passable quality LSD in this year or the next.
Quote:
Shulgin said: . A suspension of 3.15 g d-lysergic acid hydrate and 7.1 g of diethylamine in 150 mL chloroform was brought to cook in a closed flask, using a bowl of hot water, with swirling. It was taken from the bowl and there was added 3.4 g POCl3 over the course of 2 min with an eye dropper, at a rate sufficient to maintain boiling. The mixture was held at a boil in the closed flask for an additional 5 min, at which point everything had gone into solution. After returning to room temperature, it was added to 200 mL of 1.7% ammonia. The solvent layer was taken, dried over water-free epsom salt, filtered, and the solvent evaporated to yield LSD
It is THAT simple if you have the reagents. Most people who extract their own DMT could do it if they just had the chems.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Psychoslut
The Mother Fucking Bear-o-dactyl

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Seuss]
#5554658 - 04/25/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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id like to snort me a key bump of lsd.
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[quote]KristiMidocean said: Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5554910 - 04/25/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think you are exaggerating the simplicity of these techniques abit here W_S. That Shulgin "quote" you paraphrased there is leaving out some vital information. The steps to lysergic acid have to be done under anhydrous and inert conditions to have any hope of a decent yield. Likewise the LSD is sensitive to light, heat, moisture etc.
If you don't have the equipment to do this right - stirrers, heating mantles etc. - and experience with the methodology, it's not going to happen in practical terms. At least, it's not going to happen with any acceptable yield / purity / safety margin, within a reasonable number of attempts. That ET ain't easy to come by, you wouldn't want to waste it.
Maybe you know amateurs who have made acid before but I think that is pretty damn rare.
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DrJ
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DadeMurphy]
#5555849 - 04/25/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you have the equipment LSD is cheap to make. Thats why, when its available here, its only ?2-4 a trip.
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   "Worse?? Or Better?!"
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Nephlyte
Misfortunate One


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DrJ]
#5556744 - 04/25/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is a good thread. I've often put LSD production out of my mindset. I assumed it was way impossible to even synth a little for myself(which is the only person i care about having lsd).
Is that tek you just spelled out accurate? What amounts do you mix in? Or what ratios of amounts?
Thanks for renewing my faith in LSD production Wiccan Seeker.
-------------------- "To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana
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resin
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Nephlyte]
#5556873 - 04/25/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I also thought it was only somthing that the "family" could make, and that all the recipies outthere are bullshit. But e.t. in the us is as hard to find as E.T.(phone home)
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pantsboy
I troll because I care.


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: resin]
#5556994 - 04/25/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I get my LSD directly from the source himself:

He got popped though and now I need to find a new hook.
-------------------- Acid doesn't hurt when you're on fire.
"Mushrooms are only similar to penises in their appearance." - LeBron James (2013) ToiletDuk said: "Bus squelching is not to be laughed at."
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DrJ]
#5557334 - 04/26/06 01:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The reason LSD is cheap (on a per hit basis) is because it is so highly potent, ie. a small amount can make alot of doses. The reagents and equipment required are, presumably, not cheap. Not that I have ever bought ET.
resin: The "family" aren't the only people who have produced LSD - just look at Pickard, he wasn't family. It's my understanding that the family was more of a distribution network. In any case it's ludicrous to think that they could have a monopoly on the knowledge - anyone can find syntheses in the literature that work.
PS - To W_S: your "tek" has popped up on bluelight with someone discussing doing it! http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=251512 The bluelighters seem to think it's dangerous and won't work.
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Edited by DadeMurphy (04/26/06 02:04 AM)
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DadeMurphy] 1
#5557582 - 04/26/06 05:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Quote:
The bluelighters seem to think it's dangerous and won't work.
The Bluelighters also believe that you fall off the edge of the earth if you sail too far west. Here there be dragons, yeah right 
Quote:
a Bluelighter said: . In reality, it's not much better than the "Foster Larger" technique that circulated years ago.

Funny how Shulgin considers it a viable pathway. Theres a consistent tendency among Bluelighters to make originators of ideas they do not quite dig look like retards, such as comparing the trifluoroacetic anhydride synthesis to "Foster's Lager".
Contrary to what you said on Bluelight it was an open thread rather than an email correspondence and in no way am I even remotely intending to make LSD. I'm the guy with the bullhorn, the ones who'll try won't speak out.
I gave this synthetic pathway as an example of the simplicity of some methods of LSD production. Like our resident h4x0r said, I simplified it a bit, however the procedure is of breathtaking simplicity.
Here's how you make high purity LSD with trifluoracetic anhydride:
Quote:
Synthesis of LSD using Trifluoracetic anhydride . Step I. Use Yellow light . 5.36 g of d-lysergic acid are suspended in 125 ml of acetonitrile and the suspension cooled to about -20 C in a bath of acetone cooled with dry ice. To the suspension is added a cold (-20 C) solution of 8.82 g of trifluoroacetic anhydride in 75 ml of acetonitrile. The mixture is allowed to stand at -20 C for about 1.5 hours during which the suspended material dissolves, and the d-lysergic acid is converted to the mixed anhydride of lysergic and trifluoroacetic acids. The mixed anhydride can be separated in the form of an oil by evaporating the solvent in vacuo at a temperature below 0 C, but this is not necessary. Everything must be kept anhydrous. . Step II. Use Yellow light . The solution of mixed anhydrides in acetonitrile from Step I is added to 150 ml of a second solution of acetonitrile containing 7.6 g of diethylamine. The mixture is held in the dark at room temperature for about 2 hours. The acetonitrile is evaporated in vacuo, leaving a residue of LSD-25 plus other impurities. . The residue is dissolved in 150 ml of chloroform and 20 ml of ice water. The chloroform layer is removed and the aqueous layer is extracted with several portions of chloroform. The chloroform portions are combined and in turn washed with four 50 ml portions of ice-cold water. The chloroform solution is then dried over anhydrous Na2SO4 and evaporated in vacuo. . Source: Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist
Foster's beer indeed 
Please notice how you can replace the dry ice/acetone bath (which is OTC btw) with a freezer, as its only objective is to keep the reaction at -20 'C.
Please note that the (highly toxic) solvent does not have to be removed under vacuum because it is about as volatile as ether.
The last (purification) step is optional, but requires only chloroform and sodium sulfate or epsom salt (both OTC laxatives which can be oven-dried to the required anhydrous conditions)
Please also note the absence of inert atmosphere or lighting conditions more demanding rthan a screw-in lightbulb. The only pressing conditions for the reaction is to keep it strictly anhydrous and use well-measured reagents.
Tell me that an expert home extractor of DMT can't do this after studying up on the specifics, if he has the chems and the most basic equipment.
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I am sick and tired of the cynic/nihilist culture among the online psychedelics community. People echo the myths that LSD can only be made by a person of stellar intelligence who is a leading scientist and hindu saint with a million dollar laboratory using reagents that can only be stolen from the DEA headquarters.
This intimidates many bright youths from even looking into methods of LSD production. One of the main reasons for the LSD shortage is that too many people think that it cannot be done.
I'm also tired of interforum rivalry and smiting people of unconventional opinions with thunder until they conform to the norm that it cannot be done and that you cannot ask questions. This is so far removed from the idealism of the First-Generation Psychedelic Movement (which paved the way for us) that it isn't even funny.
IT CAN BE DONE PEOPLE!
The strategic precursor (lysergic acid amides) can be acquired OTC from growing your own ergot from genetic material of the sclerotia that are present in every bag of "organic" rye. (agar work --> liquid culture --> extraction --> purification) Attached you find the Sandoz process. The liquid culture medium can consist of whole grain rye flour boiled in water to yield a liquid.
I'm convinced LSD itself can be made entirely OTC, though the process will be very involved and unusual.
The chemical equivalent of the elusive Ergotamine Tartrate (ET) can be had OTC through this technique, and in less developed nations it can be ordered and bought locally. You might even find a disillusioned "establishment" chemist willing to do the synth in his own lab.
It can be done people! It's a bit harder than I briefly outlined in the earlier post, but nowhere near as difficult (or even impossible) as most people here think it is. If you are bright and want to do it, then STFU about your plans to anyone and get busy. Use the internet anonymously to gather the info you need and then proceed.
I'm just here rallying and shouting with a bullhorn that this dream can be dreamt but others may decide in silence to very cautiously start dreaming a dream of their own.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5557593 - 04/26/06 05:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Err...sorry if I offended. It wasn't I who posted at bluelight on the subject, I just spied that post and tried to direct your attention there. I wasn't saying your methodology won't work, or that the synthesis can't be done by someone committed to it. All I said was that you were simplifying things a bit and making it sound TOO easy. There's a tendancy to use a bit of hyperbole on these boards in order to argue a point. It can lead to miscommunication or percieved rivalry when there is no offense intended.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DadeMurphy]
#5557601 - 04/26/06 05:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Err...sorry if I offended.
No offense taken whatsoever! Please don't take this the wrong way.
Quote:
All I said was that you were simplifying things a bit and making it sound TOO easy. There's a tendancy to use a bit of hyperbole on these boards in order to argue a point.
Thats what I did with the simplified synth. Nobody in their right mind would use that as an actual "recipy", but anyone who reads this has access to the www where you no doubt can download exact procedures like this one a dozen times over.
EDIT: LOL even the Temple Of The Screaming Electron has the correct procedures in a rare instance of them not getting you killed
Quote:
It can lead to miscommunication or percieved rivalry when there is no offense intended.
No i'm a bit fed up with some inter-forum stuff I see across the internet, and the depressive atmosphere of discouragement that prevails. People smoke too much pot 
No offense taken, really. When I take offense I usually (over)react with a heavyhanded bitter PM rather than taking it in public 
Nobody in this thread or in the Bluelight personally offended me, but some posts fueled the fires of discouragement and thats unfortunate.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (04/26/06 05:30 AM)
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5557759 - 04/26/06 07:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wiccan I do applaud your enthusiasm... However (and this isn't the "pot" talking) There is FAR more to the whole process than you describe. Were one to procure Lysergic acid or ET there are better and more efficient ways to convert these EXPENSIVE AND CLOSELY WATCHED CHEMICALS. A 50% yield is abyssmal and will barely recoup the investment in Chemicals( black market price)Lacking Chromatography the end product will be far dirtier than "tornado juice" and likely a filthy experience with a degree of ergot like sensations. Now you can call me a "stoned" negative nelly but were this a viable synth for a consumable product, If it were as easy as you make it out to be, there would be LOTS of lsd as there IS demand. What we instead see is High quality LSD being spread very thin (20mcg hits). Why do we not see lots of crap grade acid? Why aren't lil labs pumping out the 1-2g batches? I assure you those who do this work KNOW what does and does not work.One might be able to column the 50% contamination from the batch but not w/o MANY passes. It adds up to an uneconomical waste of chemicals and time at a 50% yield. Just my -.02cents WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: whiterasta]
#5558392 - 04/26/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It adds up to an uneconomical waste of chemicals and time at a 50% yield.
You misunderstand. The powder will contain over 50% LSD, but almost all lysergic acid in the reaction has in fact been converted to LSD, so the net result is a very high yield of LSD which, if unpurified, has up to 50% nonrelevant impurities which are NOT ergoloids.
Quote:
Lacking Chromatography the end product will be far dirtier than "tornado juice" and likely a filthy experience with a degree of ergot like sensations.
Not so, this depends entirely on the specific reaction you are using to make the LSD. If this procedure is followed to the letter it does not make a mess. Chromatography is not strictly needed, but if the chemist insists its not that hard a process too.
Quote:
were this a viable synth for a consumable product, If it were as easy as you make it out to be, there would be LOTS of lsd as there IS demand.
There IS lots of LSD  But the demand is far greater than that. And its a viable synth and if it is followed to the letter, just as the shulgin process, it will yield high quality LSD.
Quote:
What we instead see is High quality LSD being spread very thin (20mcg hits). Why do we not see lots of crap grade acid?
How do we know a 20mcg blotter wasnt laid with 100mcg of poor quality LSD? And perhaps poor quality LSD is made, and subjected to purification processes.
Quote:
Why aren't lil labs pumping out the 1-2g batches?
Who says they aren't? For every big fish theres 100 sardines.
Quote:
I assure you those who do this work KNOW what does and does not work.
Fortunately nobody can have a full overview of what goes on, so LSD cannot be driven into extinction.
The first LSD in Holland in the 1960s was made on a tiny scale by a chem enthusiast. He had heard of Yag? which caught his interest, then he heard that LSD = Lysergic Acid Diethyamide, and with that chemical name as a starting point he studied up, botched a bit here and there, and made LSD in a small home lab without any "connections", and sold it to friends as "Yag?".
What would anyone know of a 1 gram lab?
A 1 gram lab puts out a mere 10 sheets of 1000 blotters. With demand being what it is, its gone before you can say Lysergic. There are many many kinds of blotter floating around, including lots of perfed and unperfed white blotter. You'd never notice the output of a one-gram lab, because its trivial if you look at demand.
With people taking tenstrips and all a literal busload of hippies will easily take care of a 100-sheet on a weekend.
The psychedelic movement hasn't got a culture of making LSD, it has a culture of saying it can't be done Take mushrooms. They were treasured and revered as a psychedelic more valuable than LSD. You went to Mexico to find a curandero to experience them. Then some intrepid people cultivated them. Now "everybody" cultivates them, many noobs pick their first trip off their own PF Cake.
DMT, Mescaline, Salvinorin.. many people extract them.
LSD is harder, but once people have a sense that it can be done, it will be done.
Take no offense, please.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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AuroricDistortions
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5558951 - 04/26/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If only now were still the 1960s. Why I'd use my methedrine profits (easy before ephedrine restrictions) to buy a shitload of pure Lysergic acid, follow procedure outlined by W_S, spread the love half for free half for profit, use those profits to catalyst greatest band yet
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AuroricDistortions
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Registered: 10/06/03
Posts: 711
Loc: Polar Springs
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Also, I highly doubt anyone is making LSD in the US. With the government the way it is and all the money and power of the US out to destroy drugs outside of their profit circle.
They = Pharmacuticals, Legal drug pushers, Religion in gov't, all gov't agencies paid to 'fight' drugs, organized crime profiting off drug prohibition, and probably more Us = We the People The Duplicity of the War on Drugs excellent shitty dope making me rant off topic
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Nephlyte
Misfortunate One


Registered: 10/11/05
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Quote:
AuroricDistortions said: Also, I highly doubt anyone is making LSD in the US. With the government the way it is and all the money and power of the US out to destroy drugs outside of their profit circle.
Well, this is an oversimplification of prohibition. Just because things are watched and they are illegal, they don't go away. If people want it, someone is going to produce it. Even if its in a heavily restricted market.
"with the government the way it is" C'mon, what way is it that it wasn't 10 years ago(on drugs, that is. lets not turn this into a politics conversation). Every president since LSD was made illegal has professed how horrible drugs are and pushed forward agendas to spend more money on the problem, but there has been no decline in drug use.
So to say that all of a sudden, the way things are now, they have found a way to stop LSD production in the US is silly.
-------------------- "To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana
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AuroricDistortions
~~~~~~~



Registered: 10/06/03
Posts: 711
Loc: Polar Springs
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Nephlyte]
#5559681 - 04/26/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was off on an fuzzy rant, I meant that government has been increasing the war on drugs imo, and making L in the US is far riskier than other countries. Additionally, the precursors must be obtained elsewhere, so logically a chemist would go outside of the US. No matter how bad the laws get, LSD can be made anywhere, but very few would be crazy and smart enough to do it in the US without getting caught. I was comparing now with 1950s-60s, which, from what I've heard, was a lot safer for drugs. Though the peak of anti-LSD war was probably late 1980s. All I really know about is today's scene, and with all the gov't surveillance, and inequality and failure of the justice system, being a drug user is scary.
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DadeMurphy
H4x0r

Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 908
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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There are contradictory trends nowadays (as always) in respect to drugs, prohibition, psychedelics etc. Although much of what has been happening in the past 10 years has been ugly and repressive, some of the recent developments have been positive. It seems that parts of the scientific community are slowly starting to come around again on psychedelics and their potential uses. I've seen quite a few "pro" psychedelic articles in 'semi-scientific' mags such as new scientist lately, and even in the traditional mainstream press (newspapers etc.). Also some policy commitees and lobby groups are effectively arguing the case for drug policy reform (KCBA, Canadian Senate Commitees, Scottish parliament etc.) In spite of prohibitionist efforts, acid is plenty available most places, along with mushrooms and plethora of other psychedelics. Righteousness may yet prevail!
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twiggedoubt
twigburst


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: DadeMurphy]
#5560822 - 04/26/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, but a lot of those people knew what they were talking and I posted this there (I had to make it a harm reduction question or else it woulda got deleted) I'll believe them over you, a few of those people have degrees in chemistry and that tek sounds like bs anyway. If that tek was that easy, LSD would be much more prevalent, as stated.
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5561283 - 04/27/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its not well known and with all the people like you saying "well I dont really know anything about it, but it sounds like crap because other people would already be doing it" whens it supposed to start happening. Maybe in 10 years we will see more people using that tek, and LSD IS pretty damn prevalent. Not everyone has it, but god damn I pick up 10 sheets and its GONE, to a dozen people, who take it for themselves and friends and its gone in a few weeks, or stored away for a good amount of time. This takes alot of acid off the streets and only in the hands of a few, but then theres another 10 sheets a few weeks later if you need it, and I know theres damn well more then 10 sheets if I asked for them...and look at the recent prints thread, tons of people getting sheets and sheets and gels and dots and liquid all the time, and thats only a tiny fraction of whats being spread around. If you think that the US isnt making acid, and in large amounts...well I disagree..
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resin
Ghetto Monster


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: scatmanrav]
#5561327 - 04/27/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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^^^ShitShit, WTF? nigga I hate you, wrongness. You got sheets around like I got weed seeds
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: resin]
#5561427 - 04/27/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, there are plenty of people (like myself) who haven't had acid and can't seem to find it. But we just need to find the right connections ourselves in order to be able to purchase it.
There's plenty of the stuff out there, you just need to network with the people who have access.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#5561621 - 04/27/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but a lot of those people knew what they were talking and I posted this there. I'll believe them over you, a few of those people have degrees in chemistry and that tek sounds like bs anyway.
I think you have problems reading the replies to the thread you started. They are not saying that the synthetic pathway is incorrect, but that it contains too little information to reproduce the results successfully.
And it is like that.
Like I posted before, this is the more elaborate version:
Quote:
Synthesis of LSD using Trifluoracetic anhydride . Step I. Use Yellow light . 5.36 g of d-lysergic acid are suspended in 125 ml of acetonitrile and the suspension cooled to about -20 C in a bath of acetone cooled with dry ice. To the suspension is added a cold (-20 C) solution of 8.82 g of trifluoroacetic anhydride in 75 ml of acetonitrile. The mixture is allowed to stand at -20 C for about 1.5 hours during which the suspended material dissolves, and the d-lysergic acid is converted to the mixed anhydride of lysergic and trifluoroacetic acids. The mixed anhydride can be separated in the form of an oil by evaporating the solvent in vacuo at a temperature below 0 C, but this is not necessary. Everything must be kept anhydrous. . Step II. Use Yellow light . The solution of mixed anhydrides in acetonitrile from Step I is added to 150 ml of a second solution of acetonitrile containing 7.6 g of diethylamine. The mixture is held in the dark at room temperature for about 2 hours. The acetonitrile is evaporated in vacuo, leaving a residue of LSD-25 plus other impurities. . The residue is dissolved in 150 ml of chloroform and 20 ml of ice water. The chloroform layer is removed and the aqueous layer is extracted with several portions of chloroform. The chloroform portions are combined and in turn washed with four 50 ml portions of ice-cold water. The chloroform solution is then dried over anhydrous Na2SO4 and evaporated in vacuo. . Source: Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist
People were not "calling out bullshit" but rather they said there was not enough information there to depend on, and that it was unwise to embark on such an endeavor with so little information.
I think this bluelighter said it best:
Quote:
This method was posted on theshroomery during a discussion about how easy/difficult it would be to make lsd, it wasn't meant as a tek for anyone to use and there is more info about the by products in following posts. So your friend is just being stupid.
"your friend" being the hypothetical person who'd try to synth LSD without chemical knowledge using a general outline of a synthesis without specifics.
The Trifluoroacetic anhydride pathway (1956) is one of the processes that fueled the psychedelic revolution of the 1960s. It is very real.
If you trust your Bluelight friends over me, PM them the URL of this thread and *then* ask their opinion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
If they need a hand (which they do not, they tend to know their shit) the basic reaction is this:
R-COOH + CF3COOOCCF3 --> R-COOOCCF3 + CF3COOH R-COOOCCF3 + HN(CH2CH3)2 --> R-CO-N(CH2CH3)2 + CF3COOH
Overall pathway:
R-COOH + CF3COOOCCF3 --> + 3 HN(CH2CH3)2 --> R-CO-N(CH2CH3)2 + 2 CF3COOH.HN(CH2CH3)2
How this reaction mops up moisture:
CF3COOOCCF3 + H20 --> 2 CF3COOH
so you will want to use a slight excess of trifluoroacetic anhydride, especially if you are unwise enough to use a hydrated form of lysergic acid. To remedy this you'll have to slightly increase the molarity of the diethylamine too (because more of the salt will be formed) and because you definitely don't want an excess of lysergic acid. This will produce a true byproduct:
CF3COOOCCF3 + 2 HN(CH2CH3)2 --> CF3CO-N(CH2CH3)2 + CF3COOH.HN(CH2CH3)2
So, byproducts of this reaction are for the most part the diethylamine salt of trifluoroacetic acid and for a minor part N,N-diethyltrifluoroacetamide, both are very watersoluble, thus easily removed through the chloroform wash which is not strictly necessary (but good practice) because they are not significantly toxic in the microgram doses they will be present in typical LSD doses.
The problem with the reaction is that you have to keep the reaction anhydrous. The Lysergic acid can easily be dried in a desiccator over sulfuric acid and acetonitrile can often be bought anhydrous. The trouble would be procuring anhydrous diethylamide which might raise some eyebrows. A solution might be to distil your own (low boiling point anyway) from regular diethylamide mixed with a fierce nonvolatile desiccant. Lets say by dissolving sodium metal in glycerin and react/desiccate diethylamine or better its dried HCl salt with the sodium alkoxide that ensues, then distilling the mess that ensues. For the love of OTC-ness you can purify the DEET from mosquito repellant, diethyl toluamide, and shove this in dried glycerin (or ethylene glycol antifreeze if you're at it LOL) in which lye (sodium hydroxide) is dissolved, warming this goop will generate anhydrous diethylamine gas which can be easily condensed.
I'm sorry for the mumbo jumbo but it spares those in the know the need to consider the reaction in depth.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (04/27/06 05:18 AM)
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5561776 - 04/27/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Heck, for the fun of OTC-ness:
You could isolate Lysergic acid amides from ergot, seeds or pills with methods found online, turn them into Lysergic acid lithium salt using lithium carbonate (used in enameling stuff) heated to form lithium hydroxide (or by dissolving the lithium from Li-batteries in distilled water), this under an inert propane/natural gas atmosphere. Then desiccate it over concentrated sulfuric acid (which you ofcourse got from boiling battery acid ) and dissolving it into anhydrous ether (made from dropping alcohol in hot sulfuric acid and desiccated with let's say sodium from street lights )
If you heat plaster of paris it first desiccates and at higher temperature evolves sulfur trioxide. This will, when sufficiently carefully put in anhydrous ether, form a SO3.O(CH2CH3)2 adduct which can be reacted with the lithium lysergate. If you use the diethylamine from the above post on that, LSD ensues.
Presto: OTC LSD.
Please note that it takes really ADVANCED chemistry to process this outline into something that actually works. Now this DOES take a scientifically well-endowed person, to make THIS work you really need someone able and committed to the cause. But once you have that, LSD can be made without use of anything unavailable to the general public.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (04/27/06 05:50 AM)
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Radioethiopia
Stranger and Stranger


Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 90
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5562589 - 04/27/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you!
Not saying I would ever do such things, just...thanks.
-------------------- happy bear eats the family.
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QuantumMeltdown
Space Monkey



Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 4,962
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Asante]
#5564670 - 04/27/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The only thing I have to say about making LSD is that most the time you can just find the shit easier and cheaper then to try to make it? For personal use It would be more reasonable to find a legit source of good stuff and maybe stock up if need be? With the amount of dedication it takes to learn chemistry get equipment regents and all that jazz you could have just found a hook up way more easier.
-------------------- -QuantumMeltdown Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself. -Mark Twain "The time has come the walrus said, little oysters hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome Be lonesome and you will be free Live a lie and you will live to regret it That's what livin' is to me That's what livin' is to me" Jimmy Buffett
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ThreePieceSuit
disastrophe


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 5,003
Loc: East Coast of Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
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After reading this whole thread for the last half hour, I've got my opinion : It's true that you could just buy it, but you have to take into account that not every town or neighbourhood is gonna have piles of acid lying around. I'm stumped on shrooms as we speak, and as far as I'm concerned, acid is a pipe dream for my little town. Which isn't to say I couldn't get it if I wanted, it's just I couldn't with ease. I have a lot of respect for anyone who would decide to make their own rather than just buy it. Hallucinogens may be a long way from extinction, but LSD might not be if this trend of hoping for someone else to make it is continued. If you have the means to do it, I say you owe it to the world to manufacture. I personally intend to spore many many mushies and never harvest. Power to the People, and peace and goodnight to everyone. Good reading, this, thanks guys and gals.
--------------------
I'm so lucrative, even my birthday suit is in three pieces.
Edited by ThreePieceSuit (04/27/06 10:27 PM)
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chaospilot
Ming I

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 304
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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i havent read the whole thread, partialy because i have to go to sleep really soon, but i figured this story would be interesting....
Someguy: "Hey man, do you want some LSD?"
Me:"Hell yeah, do you have any?"
someguy: "not on me, but i could make some. All i need is the Anarchist Cookbook, and i can make it. I can make LSD, er well, not LSD, but Acid."
Me: "your a dumbfuck" the end.
that guy pissed me off, giving my hopes up like that. I wouldnt buy anything from that guy. Its amazing how people around my area think that LSD and Acid are two different things...
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stemmer
Stranger


Registered: 09/08/05
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: chaospilot]
#5565617 - 04/28/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You need to know you can make lsd before you even think about making some.
My guess is that no one at this site has ever or will ever make LSD.
For a serious chemist, synthesizing lsd is not too hard. You just need the right precursor chemicals, some serious equipment, and alot of know-how.
There is no "real" recipe for lsd out there that caters to those who have no capability to read the few true synethises or have NO know-how to produce the drug for that matter......
Edited by stemmer (04/28/06 01:30 AM)
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: stemmer]
#5565660 - 04/28/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It would be possible for someone who knew how to make LSD to write an "idiot's guide" to making it, but it would also be irresponsible. That's why no mature and right-thinking chemist would do it.
It's not that a person couldn't just follow a predefined procedure to make it, it's that doing so would be hazardous and if they made a mistake they would not posess the necessary education to know what they've just done. They could accidentally wind up with a hazardous chemical laid to blotter. Or, they could just blow their damn selves up. Yes, I think that is possible.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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stemmer
Stranger


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#5565691 - 04/28/06 01:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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SO no, no-body here will be able to make lsd.
If you have the know-how and the supplies you can certainly make the stuff though, with ease.
"Ease" to a serious chemist is far different than the word means to you or me. I can understand about half of the crap that one needs to understand in order to make LSD...........
In other words, Im pretty good with things like chemistry or even just reading the synth, but it it still far from my grasp for various reasons.
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hightimesreader
Half assed question asker



Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 2,543
Loc: In the air conditioning
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: stemmer]
#7331052 - 08/24/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay, you say that no one can make lsd. What about the "idiots guide" by uncle fester? I beleive the book is Uncle Festeres guide to practicle lsd manufactureing. I have read THAT book and I understand about 80% of it. Is it worth anything? How about Otto Snow's :Acid? I beleive that has a synth in detail there too.
HTR
-------------------- I'm hunting for The Following ethnos. For experiments, hunting finds and any other contributions, check out My journal. HTR A new leaf turned over.. I'm too old for this shit.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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just thought i'd throw in some support for wiccan seeker.
i'm sure ergotamine tartare isn't that hard to find. if it exists in sufficient quantities somewhere, or if it can be made with reasonable supplies, then I'd say almost everyone here has the ability to find it.
how many of you have chemist friends or family? how many of you know cool people that live in china or Mexico or where-ever.
if there is a will there is definitely a way on this one, its just about talking to the right people about it I'm guessing.
hell, find a company that produces it legally, go chill in that town and start meeting people... i'm sure someone who works there smokes weed.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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clover606
Stranger

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7333545 - 08/25/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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i dont think theres any place that makes ergotamine tartare legally, i thought the ONLY purpose of having it was to make acid.
-------------------- grassman said: I remember being in DARE when i was much younger and some of the stories they would tell you are not only ridiculous, but completely untrue. One story was that a woman was on LSD and thought her infant was a turkey so she baked it in the oven. Now I look back and think thats hilarious, but at the time I guess it scared me.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA




Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
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Quote:
hightimesreader said: Okay, you say that no one can make lsd. What about the "idiots guide" by uncle fester? I beleive the book is Uncle Festeres guide to practicle lsd manufactureing. I have read THAT book and I understand about 80% of it. Is it worth anything? How about Otto Snow's :Acid? I beleive that has a synth in detail there too.
HTR
Stemmer can't respond to your question. His post was more than a year ago and he's long since been permanently gone from the shroomery.
Quote:
clover606 said: i dont think theres any place that makes ergotamine tartare legally, i thought the ONLY purpose of having it was to make acid.
I think it is used in some cases to treat migraine symptoms but I could be remembering incorrectly.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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kidaihuan
First Growery Ban



Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 3,173
Loc: Shanghai, China
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#7334359 - 08/25/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can get ergotamine tartare...
But I am in China, and from what I've seen, it isn't too cheap... (but I don't know how much is needed either)
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dutchmushroom
mushroom invader



Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1,393
Loc: Outer Space
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: PinballWizard]
#7334668 - 08/25/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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ergotamine tartate is used in migeraine medcines (ergometrine ect ect.) please stop spread the lie that its impossible to make lsd, if you want to do it bad enuff you can, your gonna have to do alot of learning and studying and money saving, but it is in no way impossible,
peace out Dm
-------------------- "Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand says: don't you see? Gotta make it some how, on the dreams you still believe, Don't give it up, you've got an empty cup, only love can fill, only love can fill" < Grateful Dead! The bus came by and I got on, and thats when it all began GROWLIGHT KIT, 250w HPS Digital ballast, + Enhanced Spectrum bulb and Reflector Sale Or Trade!
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Psilobuds
₪


Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1,775
Loc:
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#7335519 - 08/26/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: LSD is easier to make than many people think it is, but it is indeed very difficult.
The reason it's so hard is multi-faceted. Firstly, chemistry is complicated. I love chem, and I learn fast... but I'm still a total n00b. The most complicated thing I've ever synthesized is artificial flavoring. LSD is at least 5 times as challenging as that. about.
an Ester?
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA




Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Psilobuds]
#7335544 - 08/26/07 07:46 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilobuds said:
Quote:
Konnrade said: LSD is easier to make than many people think it is, but it is indeed very difficult.
The reason it's so hard is multi-faceted. Firstly, chemistry is complicated. I love chem, and I learn fast... but I'm still a total n00b. The most complicated thing I've ever synthesized is artificial flavoring. LSD is at least 5 times as challenging as that. about.
an Ester?
Yes, esters.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#7335971 - 08/26/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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there you go, we already have one person in the network who has access to the precursors...
start saving your money kids, and make sure to enroll in organic chemistry...
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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monkeybus
Hare Krishna



Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 521
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7338907 - 08/27/07 06:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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John Smith
Solo Voyager


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 532
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: monkeybus]
#7339299 - 08/27/07 09:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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not tartrate
-------------------- I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: John Smith]
#7850399 - 01/08/08 08:50 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
John Smith said: not tartrate
ergotamine + tartaric acid -> ergotamine tartrate
This is impractical: you are getting 60 tablets at 1 mg ergotamine (60 mg total) in a perfect world you would get 33.36 mg (~334 hits) of LSD. Ideally (if you were an excellent, very careful, patient, trained organic chemist) you would get ~16 mg (~160 hits). Although, in LSD terms, this is a decent quantity, it is impractical to conduct organic synthesis at mg scales. At the very least you would want to get at least 10 boxes of the stuff and I don't have $500 laying around. Additionally, I think it may be suspicious to buy 10 or more boxes of the stuff. That said, anybody wanna get me some.  Also, if anyone here lives outside of america where ergotamine or any other ergot alkaloids are available, tell us how much it is in your country, and how readily available it is so we know which counties to visit.
Edited by AHoffman (01/08/08 08:58 PM)
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Legoulash
Stranger

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7850982 - 01/08/08 10:24 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Russia, Czech, China, India.
Duh.
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Acyl
cyanidepoisoning


Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 4,472
Loc: N.W.T.
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7851143 - 01/08/08 11:00 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Why not start with LSA? I wonder how difficult it would be to obtain a pure enough product from an extraction
--------------------
1 ,2
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Acyl]
#7855559 - 01/09/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Acyl said: Why not start with LSA? I wonder how difficult it would be to obtain a pure enough product from an extraction
Yeah, but again the problem is getting enough LSA to practically work with, without raising suspicions.
Heavenly Blue Morning Glory (Ipomoea Violaceia) seeds are about 0.04% LSA by weight (every 100g of seeds contains 40mg LSA). Assuming 50% yeild, MG would give ~24mg (~240 hits) LSD per 100g seed matter. That comes to ~2500 seeds of MG and, again, 40mg of LSA is still an impractical quantity of precursor for organic synthesis; I would set a practical lower limit around 200mg LSA (~500g [ > 1lb ] of seeds or ~12500 seeds [ 1lb sells for about $70 - search the net ]).
Hawaiian Baby Woodrose (Argyrea nervosa) seeds are about 0.30% lysergic compounds by weight (100g seeds -> 300mg lysergic compounds). Assuming 50% yield, this would give ~180mg (~1800 hits) LSD per 100g seed matter. I have been unable to find the seed weight of HBW seeds but they are significantly larger, so I estimate 1 seed weighs about 1g. Using this ratio, 100g would be ~100 seeds; this would probably be enough [ 100 seeds sells for about $40 - search the net (currently out of stock) ].
Again, buying these quantities would probably raise suspicion. Growing MG will probably not yield enough seeds unless you grow more than a couple dozen plants. Growing HBW is practical in warmer climates where the plants can be left outdoors in the winter. A few HBW plants would probably yield enough seeds every year. Both plants are legal in the USA, however extraction of LSA is not.
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Robo
R Series 66Y
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 14,861
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7855680 - 01/09/08 07:39 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Split up the total needed amount between various vendors and sources, don't buy it all from one place. Problem solved.
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Shamanintraining
Junkhead



Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 3,565
Loc: Rough Raleigh
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: twiggedoubt]
#7855746 - 01/09/08 07:49 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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--------------------
"Leave your mind alone and just get high"
Edited by Shamanintraining (01/09/08 07:53 PM)
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shroomben2003
Shroomer

Registered: 05/30/03
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From my understanding, you can get ergotamine from a prescription drug called Cafergot. Is this correct?
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Robo
R Series 66Y
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 14,861
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Quote:
Cafergot is the proprietary name of a medication consisting of ergotamine tartrate or ergoline and caffeine. This combination is used for the treatment of vascular headaches, such as migraine headache.
Cafergot is an abortive headache treatment, which prevents the development of the headache, rather than a treatment for an established headache. The medication should be administered at the first sign of headache.
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7856821 - 01/09/08 11:04 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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To answer the original question there are a few things that make LSD "so hard to make" for the average "joe":
1) Acquisition of precursors: Pure LSD precursors are impossible for the average person to get; these are guarded, in a government safe, deep in the bowels of the earth, by various electronics defences, Navy Seals w/ mutant German Sheppards, booby traps, trolls, dragons, shittons of paperwork in order to get more shittons of paperwork, bureaucrats, politicians, Jeff Dahmer with a rusty steak knife, and a large bucket of cute little kittens that is ready to be dropped into a vat of molten steel if you so much as think of doing something the DEA considers immoral. (I exaggerate but it's necessary that you see the point; I think you get it now.)
The necessary precursors are only know know to naturally occur in a small number of species of various genera; these are - Ergot (claviceps purpurea or paspalli, a fungal disease that infects various grains, especially rye) - the original source from which Albert Hofmann first synthesized LSD
- Morning Glory plants, including the genera Calystegia, Convolvulus, Ipomoea, Merremia, and Rivea (these include the plants commonly referred to as Morning Glories, Ipomoea, and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, Argyreia nervosa)
- Sleepy Grass (Stipa robusta), a grass which can become infected with the Acremonium fungus endophyte; it is the endophyte which produces LSA
It is possible to extract and purify the various alkaloids from these with common products, however the quantities of raw material needed to obtain practical quantities (enough to make 200mg of LSD) of precursor would be difficult to explain to authorities. specifically - ~400g (~1lb) of Ergot (which is a poison and, while not illegal, would probably require some kind of paperwork)
- ~500g (~1lb) of Ipomoea seeds (how the f*** are you going to explain the need for ~13000 seeds)
- ~100g of Argyreia nervosa seeds (ok, this is not so bad, if my calculations are correct)
- God only knows how much sleepy grass you would need; if it grows locally you could probably figure it out yourself, if not, don't bother.
Lets start with ergot; ergot is poisonous (the gangrene kind of poisonous), so handling it without proper safety precautions is bad. You cannot buy it because it is poisonous. It grows on various grains and is a common disease of the rye plant; if you live near rye farms and can safely collect a pound of ergot from grains then you are good to go. Cultivation is difficult because ergot alkaloid content is highly dependent on the substrate, and cultivating it on anything other that grain will probably not yield any alkaloids. After this you must extract ergotamine with various acids, bases, and salts (procedures can be found on Google).
Moving on to Morning Glory; the problem with MG is that the alkaloids are only contained in the seeds and the seeds are tiny and few in an average plant. Considering it would take ~13000 seeds to get enough alkaloids, you would need to grow a couple hundred plants; if you have a green house or farm, go for it. Alternatively, you could buy 500g of seeds online and hope no one shows up at your door. Extraction involves washing with non-polar solvent (petroleum ether) and extracting with polar solvent (ethanol).
Finally, Hawaiian Baby Woodrose; this is probably the best choice. It's seeds are significantly bigger than those of MG and contain significantly more alkaloids; several plants could be sufficient. That said, it will probably not flower the first year or two, and can only be grown outdoors in warm, subtropical climates, where it will not freeze in winter. Again, there is the option to purchase ~100 seed. Extraction is the same as for MG.
2) Understanding the syntheses: (syntheses: n.; pl. of synthesis) We all know that there are various semi-syntheses available online ranging from the original Hofmann hydrazine method to the current preferred Shulgin method. I would say it is a requirement to know and understand all of these, because in 95% of cases you will need to improvise. Practical organic chemistry is rarely cut and dry; even an experienced organic chemist will have problems and must be able to think critically and quickly to save his reaction. Additionally, you may not have access to some of the preferred chemicals and may need to substitute. In order to truly understand these syntheses you must know basic organic chemistry, basic organic synthesis laboratory techniques and procedures, and most advanced synthetic laboratory procedures. - If you totally understand all the steps, and have done or at least seen all of the steps done (whether it was for synthesizing LSD or something else), then you probably understand ~85-95% of the synthesis.
- If you think you totally understand the steps involved and have only taken general organic chemistry with lab, you are about 50-65% there.
- If you have taken general organic with lab and partially understand the synthesis, you are about 30-40% there.
- If you have no lab organic lab experience, you have a long road ahead of you.
- If you must ask whether you fall into a category, you probably don't.
A good rule of thumb in my book is that if you have never run a preparatory chromatography column, you are probably not ready.
3) Obtaining lab space, lab equipment, and necessary chemicals: This synthesis requires a large, clean, well ventilated work space; a fume hood is highly recommended. Never set up a lab in your home or in a residential area. Doing so is stupid, dangerous, and irresponsible. An unused building such as a shed, barn, or garage, on a farm, in the country, may be a convenient place to set up a lab; remember to ventilate well.
The equipment required to run a successful organic lab includes:
- glasswear (beakers, flasks, adapters, stoppers, pipets, etc.),
- various stands, holders, clamps, etc.,
- stir/hot plates,
- various sized heating mantles,
- thermometers,
- vacuum (either water aspirator or mechanical pump),
- prep. chromatography columns,
- chromatography plates,
- long wave UV lamp,
- scales (preferably analytical, reading grams to 4 or more decimal places),
- melting point apparatus.
These things are not usually considered illegal or suspicious and are available from various places on the net.
Access to an Infrared (IR) spectrometer, Mass spectrometer (MS), Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) spectrometer, High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC), and/or Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS) would be necessary for identification of the product. Any decent 4 year college should have at least an IR and GC, so the best option for most is to find a friend who has access to this; if you are this person, good for you. Most people do not have the money to buy these, as they cost tens of thousands of dollars on the low end; If you do have that money, you are probably not interested in making LSD and what are you doing here anyway?
Now on to the fun stuff, the chemicals. These can be grouped as follows:
- Solvents
- Chloroform (CHCl3) - Deionized/distilled water (H2O) - Diethylether (Et2O) - Anhydrous Ethanol (EtOH) - Anhydrous Methanol (MeOH) - Benzene (C6H6) - Ammonia solution (NH3) in -- Methanol -- Ethanol
- Reagents
- Acids and Bases -- Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) -- Hydrochloric acid (HCl) -- Tartaric acid -- Potassium hydroxide (KOH) -- Ammonia solution (NH3) in water
- Reactants
-- Diethylamine (Et2NH) -- One of the following: --- Phosphorous oxychloride (Phosphoryl chloride - POCl3) --- Anhydrous hydrazine (N2H4) and sodium nitrite (Na2NO2) --- Acetonitrile (CH3CN) and trifluoroacetic anhydride ((CF3CO)2O)
- Desicants
- Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4)
- Gases
- Nitrogen (N2) - Argon (Ar)
Most of these chemicals will be difficult for the average person to get and will probably require much paperwork. The most closely watched is likely diethylamine; one would have to explain themselves very thoroughly for that. Trifluoroacetic anhydride, phosphorous oxychloride, hydrazine, and ammonia are probably next on the list of chemicals that may raise a red flag. Acids, bases, solvents, and gases are fairly common trade in chemistry circles and the least problematic. If you know people who have access to any of these things, ask them if you trust them. If ordering these chemicals, do not put all of your eggs in one basket; split up the most crucial and most watched supplies between multiple companies. Better yet, see if multiple friends are willing to buy them for you.
Conclusion: LSD is hard to produce because (a) the necessary supplies are not common to the general public and therefore can be easily controlled and monitored, and (b) the procedure is so complex that a thorough understanding of advanced organic chemistry is crucial.
Edited by AHoffman (01/09/08 11:11 PM)
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Serial
Cake or Death?




Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 58
Loc: Middle of Nowhere
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7858558 - 01/10/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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On the otherhand, the internet is a beautiful thing. Advanced lab synthesis is leaking into the realm of your average Joe Everyman thanks to the free availability of information and the ease in obtaining inexpensive high end lab equipment from places like ebay. With the half dosen credible and more importantly practical methods of lsd synthesis I've read I think there's problably a few people out there making it without an organic chemistry degree.
Also with regard to your sources of LSA, I purchased 1Lb. of mg seeds from a website about 6 months ago, it was a little over 15 thousand seeds for 15 dollars plus shipping. They were untreated and they seemed like it was absolutely no big deal so that is problably the best precursor you could get your hands on.
I consumed a thousand of the seeds to play with them and I dont recommend it but I've still got 14 thousand of them sitting on my shelf waiting for a brilliant man to come along and invent the seeds in -> lsd out machine!
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Serial]
#7860905 - 01/10/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Serial said: On the otherhand, the internet is a beautiful thing. Advanced lab synthesis is leaking into the realm of your average Joe Everyman thanks to the free availability of information and the ease in obtaining inexpensive high end lab equipment from places like ebay. With the half dosen credible and more importantly practical methods of lsd synthesis I've read I think there's problably a few people out there making it without an organic chemistry degree...
And that's what scares me about street acid. 
Quote:
Serial said: ...Also with regard to your sources of LSA, I purchased 1Lb. of mg seeds from a website about 6 months ago, it was a little over 15 thousand seeds for 15 dollars plus shipping. They were untreated and they seemed like it was absolutely no big deal so that is problably the best precursor you could get your hands on...
Ok, I was being a bit facetious about raising suspicion by buying 1lb of seeds. Still, I wonder if anybody would notice if you bought 1lb regularly, every 6 months; maybe, maybe not.
I do agree that the information is available to everyone via the internet, however I think the reason there aren't many LSD producers is that this information takes too long to learn, and people are impatient. I'm sure there are quite a number of self-taught organic chemists out there, but the majority of people simple don't have the time, patience, and/or cognitive capacity to learn it. It took me more than 6 hours a week for four semesters in a proper environment to get up to the level of advanced organic synthesis. Also, there is only so much you can learn without laboratory experience.
And all of this still leaves the problem of obtaining the necessary chemicals, most importantly diethylamine.
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


Registered: 02/07/06
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7861088 - 01/10/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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i agree, LSD is impossible to make. all of the acid i' ve ever seen just appears.
-------------------- omg really?
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Serial
Cake or Death?




Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 58
Loc: Middle of Nowhere
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: impgl]
#7861639 - 01/10/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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That's why its magical impgl
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Acyl
cyanidepoisoning


Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 4,472
Loc: N.W.T.
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Quote:
shroomben2003 said: From my understanding, you can get ergotamine from a prescription drug called Cafergot. Is this correct?
Those pills are pretty expensive and you'd need countless amounts.
I suppose theres always ways to acquire pharms illegally for no cost but in any other case its probably not even worth it
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Kakkoii
Stranger

Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 22 days
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USE GOOGLE! IT KNOWS ALL!
Any damn questions you have. Ask google and it will tell you how lol.
I've seen plenty of guides making LSD.
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AHoffman
Researcher

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 23
Loc: PA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Acyl]
#7864043 - 01/11/08 09:09 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Acyl said:
Quote:
shroomben2003 said: From my understanding, you can get ergotamine from a prescription drug called Cafergot. Is this correct?
Those pills are pretty expensive and you'd need countless amounts.
I suppose theres always ways to acquire pharms illegally for no cost but in any other case its probably not even worth it
Like Serial said, Morning Glories seeds (or Hawaiian Baby Woodrose) are the best way to go. They are inexpensive, and the synthesis is slightly simpler because you don't have to worry about that large group on the amide nitrogen.
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Bolus
Joe Pesci'sretarded cousin

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 14
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: AHoffman]
#7866275 - 01/11/08 06:15 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
AHoffman said: The equipment required to run a successful organic lab includes:
- glasswear (beakers, flasks, adapters, stoppers, pipets, etc.),
- various stands, holders, clamps, etc.,
- stir/hot plates,
- various sized heating mantles,
- thermometers,
- vacuum (either water aspirator or mechanical pump),
- prep. chromatography columns,
- chromatography plates,
- long wave UV lamp,
- scales (preferably analytical, reading grams to 4 or more decimal places),
- melting point apparatus.
These things are not usually considered illegal or suspicious and are available from various places on the net.
Access to an Infrared (IR) spectrometer, Mass spectrometer (MS), Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) spectrometer, High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC), and/or Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS) would be necessary for identification of the product. Any decent 4 year college should have at least an IR and GC, so the best option for most is to find a friend who has access to this; if you are this person, good for you. Most people do not have the money to buy these, as they cost tens of thousands of dollars on the low end; If you do have that money, you are probably not interested in making LSD and what are you doing here anyway?
*LOL* that one cracks me the fuck up. AHoffman, you're an amusing fellow.
I've got all that shit and you're exactly right. Why the fuck would I spend my time making acid and what the fuck am I doing here.
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Bolus]
#7869953 - 01/12/08 05:34 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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you have an infared spec, mass spec, nuke mag spec etc? fuckin baaaalllllllller!
-------------------- omg really?
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Justice_Fish
Fustice_Jish



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: impgl]
#7870073 - 01/12/08 06:01 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Why does someone need a chromatograph and all these stuffs? Can't someone just put the chemicals and cook?
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impgl
CrimethINCspecial agent


Registered: 02/07/06
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Justice_Fish]
#7870735 - 01/12/08 08:18 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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identification of the product?
-------------------- omg really?
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laidback4sho
legend of a mind



Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 144
Loc: SE Louisiana
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Konnrade]
#11407809 - 11/07/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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it's actually not that difficult provided you have all the chemicals, glassware, chromatography column, photographic darkroom, nitrogen tank, and a little chemistry experience. there are two very informative books that i know of that will show you step-by-step how to do it. those books are "The Book of Acid" and "Psychedelic Chemistry". The Book of Acid has diagrams and walks you through the process more so than Psychedelic Chemistry does. Psychedelic Chemistry is way more technical. both books can be bought from ebay and possibly Amazon.com. anyway, a google search will most likely be productive. making LSD can be hazardous, though; poisoning being a major risk here.
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benitoamanito
rad
Registered: 06/18/05
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: laidback4sho]
#11407895 - 11/07/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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just a thought... i know its not really the most practicle thinking, but what about making LSD using lsa pre cursors from like hbwr seeds and what not? me thinks it would be a cleaner trip from actual; plant seeds than from otherwise dangerous fungus... like, a native american source of a trip (seeds) rather than a salem witch trial source (ergot)... just saying.
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Lucidx
No longer a stranger


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Hold on, how the fuck did Albert Hofmann come up with this shit if it's so hard to make?
-------------------- Para todos todo, para nosotros nada
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Lucidx]
#11408405 - 11/07/09 10:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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He was a professional scientist with a lab and the chemicals .
Edited by DimensionX (11/07/09 10:20 PM)
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laidback4sho
legend of a mind



Registered: 11/07/09
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benito, the books i suggested tell you how to do just that, in addition to using ergot. read up and you'll see what i'm talking about.
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Harlz
Stranger

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Lucidx]
#11409817 - 11/08/09 07:32 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Albert Hoffman actually did it by accident, 
Theres like 6 different forms of LSD that could have been produced from his mistake as well, and I think 4 of them are un-active and He just got lucky the first time.. ( Not sure if its 100% accurate could have been less forms of acid )
-------------------- no longer with us
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laotzo
Struggling with Math



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Harlz]
#11410033 - 11/08/09 08:53 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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google dimethylhydrazine.
it fuels the shuttle, and military rockets.
it is one of the final chemicals in making real lsd from lysergic acid.
it has almost no other applications besides high tech arson.
that is the main issue.
full stop.
if you don't have a chemistry degree, a license, and a lab then you damn near can't get it, and if you have the money for a lab, a degree, and a license, then why make it unless you just want to be a criminal?
laotzo
ps esp when shroooms grow naturally.
L
-------------------- if you can't beat them, arrange to have it done. george carlin...RIP laotzo
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Harlz
Stranger

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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: laotzo]
#11410129 - 11/08/09 09:22 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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and DMT is so much easier to extract, with shrooms and Deem who needs LSD
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: Harlz]
#13192589 - 09/14/10 01:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Owsley "I’m not a chemist, I never pretended to be a chemist. I’m an artist. There’s no more chemistry to making LSD than there is to making a bloody cake. You just have to know how to do it. What bits to use, what temperature to set the “oven”, etc. Most of it is published, and that which isn’t published is available to an investigative mind. It helps to be smart, if you’re bright and you pick up on things and pay attention, you can pretty soon figure out what was left out of the published account. "
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the spiral
Neuroscientist




Registered: 05/13/02
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Quote:
FilamentousFungi said: Owsley "I’m not a chemist, I never pretended to be a chemist. I’m an artist. There’s no more chemistry to making LSD than there is to making a bloody cake. You just have to know how to do it. What bits to use, what temperature to set the “oven”, etc. Most of it is published, and that which isn’t published is available to an investigative mind. It helps to be smart, if you’re bright and you pick up on things and pay attention, you can pretty soon figure out what was left out of the published account. "
Uhm.... while chemistry is indeed involved in making a cake, I think comparing synthesizing LSD to baking is comparing apples & oranges. More like comparing bicycle chains and pillow covers. There is a LOT of chemistry involved in LSD synthesis and there are a LOT of ways you can harm yourself if you screw up. From the last time I baked a cake, I seem to recall that I would have had to be baking one messed up cake (like a cake made out of LSD) to risk blowing myself up, or risk poisoning myself by getting a drop or two of the ingredients on my skin. Saying that a person who synthesizes LSD is not a chemist is like saying that a neurosurgeon is not a doctor. Sure, chemistry is an art as well as a science - just like surgery. That doesn't make it any less of a hard science though; in fact, it may make it MORE of one.
And Laotzo's point about dimethylhydrazine is spot-on. Plus, that's only one of the extremely hard to get, very-watched chemicals that you need to do a LSD synth.
I'm sure glad there are people out there who have the knowledge, the access, and the gumption to synthesize LSD; I'm also glad that, because of them, the rest of us don't have to worry about it.
Edit: I wanted to add that I am not trying to crap on Owsley; I know nothing about the guy except for the quote that was posted. If that quote really represents the attitude the guy took/takes towards chemistry, though, I'm not so sure I'd want to take anything the dude made. Still, very smart people often have some pretty nutty ideas and say some even nuttier things. As I said, I don't know the guy at all so I'm not sure if he is/was a quack or a visionary or both. That quote, however, is pretty quack-a-licious.
--------------------
  "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan
Edited by the spiral (09/14/10 07:59 AM)
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: the spiral]
#13194442 - 09/14/10 01:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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First of all if you think that Hydrazine is used in current LSD production then you need to take a half day and do some research. Hydrazine was used by AH to make it the first time. He came out with a later patent that was much less difficult to work with. The other methods conjured up since have only made the process less difficult. You may want to take a look at the synth route that Casey Hardison came up with to get an idea of what it takes to make LSD today.
Secondly Owsley is very spot on with his statement. If a person is only following an experimental procedure then they are a "cook" not a chemist. A chemist envisions the synthesis and can process it, whereas a cook only follows a synthesis. If I were you I would take a quick second to lookup Owsley Stanley and LSD. You might be surprised how pure that "cook" made his product. All he did was follow paperwork that he was acquiring from the library at Berkeley.
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the spiral
Neuroscientist




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Well, this seems to be a debate that's purely on semantics. I maintain that anyone who could synthesize LSD is someone that I, at least, would consider a chemist - regardless of what recipe they use, it's not comparable to something like methamphetamine manufacture where I suppose I'd agree that you could call someone doing that a cook.
Even so, just because you're following a synthesis that someone else has done before doesn't mean you aren't a chemist. Just as following a peanut brittle (mmm...peanut brittle) recipe your grandmother taught you doesn't make you less of a cook just because you didn't come up with it yourself. Not all the chemists employed at pharmaceutical manufacturers, for example, are in the R&D department; I think they would take offense at being called "cooks" instead of chemists just because they are following a synthesis that's already been discovered.
And yeah, as I said, I don't know a thing about Owsley so my intention is not to bash the guy. I simply don't find that one quote to sit well with me. That's all.
--------------------
  "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan
Edited by the spiral (09/14/10 01:52 PM)
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: the spiral]
#13194518 - 09/14/10 02:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
the spiral said: Well, this seems to be a debate that's purely on semantics. I maintain that anyone who could synthesize LSD is someone that I, at least, would consider a chemist - regardless of what recipe they use, it's not comparable to something like methamphetamine manufacture where I suppose I'd agree that you could call someone doing that a cook.
Even so, just because you're following a synthesis that someone else has done before doesn't mean you aren't a chemist. Just as following a peanut brittle (mmm...peanut brittle) recipe your grandmother taught you doesn't make you less of a cook just because you didn't come up with it yourself. Not all the chemists employed at pharmaceutical manufacturers, for example, are in the R&D department; I think they would take offense at being called "cooks" instead of chemists just because they are following a synthesis that's already been discovered.
And yeah, as I said, I don't know a thing about Owsley so my intention is not to bash the guy. I simply don't find that one quote to sit well with me. That's all.
I have never made Meth so I can't speak about the process, but I would imagine that Reflux is a major part of the RXN. I don't think that there is much more to making LSD than meth...Owsley was a meth cook before he started cooking LSD. The sensitivity to light(go buy a red photo room bulb), and CC purification steps are the only thing that is more labor intensive. Methlabs have the same issues with air and water, hence the occasional explosion. Experimenting with inert atmospheres, and making substances anhydrous is not very hard either, just labor intensive. FWIW there are more steps in a MDMA synth than in a LSD synth.
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gingey420
Stranger


Registered: 03/11/10
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Can I link a pdf of the uncle fester book guide thing?
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StatuesCryBleeding
Mycology Enthusiast

Registered: 09/14/10
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: gingey420]
#13196595 - 09/14/10 08:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've heard the procedure itself isn't all that hard, it simply takes a proper chemist to follow proper lab protocol and to get access to the necessary glassware/regents.
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curenado
73rd Man



Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 2,603
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Quote:
StatuesCryBleeding said: it simply takes a proper chemist to follow proper lab protocol and to get access to the necessary glassware/regents.
Well, that's the hard part isn't it?
-------------------- Yours in the Natural State! "The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."
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hightimesreader
Half assed question asker



Registered: 07/18/06
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How hard is it to synth a DNA coupler?
-------------------- I'm hunting for The Following ethnos. For experiments, hunting finds and any other contributions, check out My journal. HTR A new leaf turned over.. I'm too old for this shit.
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



Registered: 08/23/10
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Good question hightimesreader. I don't think that they are hard to make, but just $$$.
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hightimesreader
Half assed question asker



Registered: 07/18/06
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What about this diethylmethylamine? Seems like a harder one. I googled it and didnt find much. Hydrizne is made from urea or is that something else? I may be mixing two. But there are a few that proceed from LSA directly isnt there?
-------------------- I'm hunting for The Following ethnos. For experiments, hunting finds and any other contributions, check out My journal. HTR A new leaf turned over.. I'm too old for this shit.
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Should be easier to make. It's probably not very watched, but do some research on it first.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Quote:
PinballWizard said: I've had conversations with people where they tell me someone they know is cooking LSD. I try to explain that it requires a degree in chemistry, thousands of dollars in lab equipment, and chemicals closely watched by the government. They don't believe me though, because I don't know anything specific.
i myself wouldn't make the stuff with anything less than a $40,000 lab. i know it's illegal but why sell bad crap to people. then again when you make it right it's psychologically dangerous so i guess either way it's a risk but still might as well be meticulous with that crap.
don't forget it's extremely illegal and if you get any on your hand watch out!
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
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Quote:
hightimesreader said: What about this diethylmethylamine? Seems like a harder one. I googled it and didnt find much. Hydrizne is made from urea or is that something else? I may be mixing two. But there are a few that proceed from LSA directly isnt there?
whoa!!  
diethylamine they won't send you unless you order it from a certified business, more likely a research department. anhydrous hydrazine is pure but dangerous, you plan to mix diethymethylamine and hydrazine?
i don't know i would never screw with this but be careful..........
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: imachavel]
#13214297 - 09/18/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think you can distill it from deet.
hydrizine is relatively dangerous stuff, so i'm not sure what kind precautions they take on that. That might be hard to get.
can anyone comment on the hydrizine?
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Re: Why is LSD so hard to make? [Re: truekimbo2]
#13215035 - 09/18/10 05:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Diethylmethylamine and diethylamine are two different substances. The diethylmethylamine replaces hydrazine.
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Majesty
Stranger

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I know this is an old post but I find these old LSD related post's very interesting, and also find it interesting how things especially on the internet have changed the last say decade. When it comes to LSD synthesis, and the chemistry behind it. I for one believe in most countries the hardest speed bump isn't getting a viable precursor ergopeptine's aren't that hard to locate in nature / botanical ventures. and Purifying the ergopeptines / ergoloids down to Lysergic Acid isn't that difficult either albit time consuming, it can be done by most people with basic chemistry knowledge on Hawaiian baby wood rose seeds or morning glory seeds, an extraction of the amides, and then condensing them to lysergic acid for the last parts of the synthesis. After a person has Lysergic Acid, they've no need for ergotamine tartarate for it's only a starting point for lysergic acid, then apparently the next steps involve the acquisition of a Secondary or Tertiary amine, aswell as things such as Phosphoryl chloride, peptide coupling reagents, depending on your workup, thats the most difficult part for anybody with an intermediate grasp on chemistry and lab safety, would be acquiring not the precursors but the chemicals used in the later part of the synthesis are heavily watched for several different reasons and their not exactly easy to synthesize either. If only you could pick up some Pocl3 & C4H11N at your local hardware store.
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