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InvisibleRavus
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5249116 - 01/31/06 10:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
At this point, I'd love it if the South seceded. The average IQ in Washington might actually go up a few points.




Seriously.

And we'd have gay marriage and evolution taught in schools. Life would be good again.

The South is dragging the rest of the country down with its fundamentalist Protestant twist on everything. If the US broke into three entities, noticeably New England, the South and Central, and the West, everything would be good. They could flog homosexuals, we could have universal healthcare, and the West could legalize marijuana and prositution.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5250086 - 02/01/06 04:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ancalagon,

Although I wasn't raised in the South, I'm on your side for this debate.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5250262 - 02/01/06 07:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Angalcon Stated:

Again, that the Constitution makes no mention of secession cannot be taken to mean that the states had no right to secede, but rather should be taken, with the 10th Amendment in mind, to mean that the right to secede was in the hands of the states.

Would you then agree, that since there is no mention of the right TO secede or to NOT secede, that there can be no truly definite answer? (no remedy in the Constitution)

I am glad we have had this discussion, I will admit that I have learned something from your posts, and do see were you are coming from. The 14th Amendment was imposed after the war, during reconstruction, Why do you think ? In my opinion, it was a cure to the pending question if a State could secede.

So in summary, I will admit that the South had the right to secede, based on the fact that the Constitution did not prohibit it, however, the subsequent amendments have made the United States a perpetual Union.

Without the strength of each state, our federal government would weaken to the point of collapse. (Similar to th Articles of Confederation)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5253655 - 02/01/06 11:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:

The fact of the matter, regardless of what you and I were taught in high school civics, is that the North was the aggressor in the war, the war was *not* fought over slavery, and the South, not the North, was the true representative of the ideals this nation was founded on (not talking about slavery, don't bring it up please).






Don't bring up slavery! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!

In 1776, Thomas Jefferson opened the Declaration of Independence wiht the following words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

This country is about freedom. Our Constitution is about freedom. We owe our prosperity to the individual freedoms given to us by the Constitution.

Do you still support a State's right to have slaves? What if Kentucky wanted to leave the Union tomorrow? What if Kentucky wanted to enslave every black tomorrow? They would no longer be able to own property or learn how to read or write, and if they get out of line, you simply whip that dumb nigger into submission.

No fine line there for you my man. You can't even see the damned line.

You do make some good points about the tariffs. You can point to plenty of reasons for agitation, but don't act like slavery had nothing to do with it. Slavery was an issue, and revisionists can't do anyting about it 140 years later.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5253995 - 02/02/06 02:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Their was a lot of opposition to slavery in the South as well. It's just totally impractical to use slaves. They'll only work as hard as the overseer that you hire to master over them will make them work, no harder because they don't have an incentive. If they avoid a beating, thats how hard they'll work. So you have to have a overseer for a group of 10 slaves, paying him reasonable money. It would be cheaper just to use horses or other domestic animals. I'm not trying to apologize for the South or stand up for a practise that I abhor morally. However, I think that it's fair to say that slavery was on the way out in the South.


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"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5254533 - 02/02/06 09:55 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

So basically you're saying that it costs more to pay 1 man a decent wage than it would cost to pay 10 men a decent wage? How?

If low pay = slavery then mexicans are the new slaves.


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:orly:


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5254742 - 02/02/06 11:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Don't bring up slavery! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!



I said don't bring up slavery not because it isn't something one should care about, or isn't something that's important, or something that wasn't an extremely important issue back then -- it's all those things. I said don't bring up slavery because it was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make but could be easily construed to be otherwise. To clarify further, the point I was trying to make was that the South, in seceding, was upholding the founding ideals of breaking away from a perceived tyranny, the rejection of central authority, the ideals of limited government, etc. I was not referring to slavery at all, hence my parenthetical notation.

Quote:


In 1776, Thomas Jefferson opened the Declaration of Independence wiht the following words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

This country is about freedom. Our Constitution is about freedom. We owe our prosperity to the individual freedoms given to us by the Constitution.



For the thirtieth time (and I'm astounded you haven't picked up on this by now), our rights are SECURED by the Constitution, they are not GRANTED by the Constitution. By your own quotation, all 'men' are endowed by their creator with unalienable rights. They are not granted by some semi-meaningless scrap of paper, they are simply recognized by it, in part.

Quote:


Do you still support a State's right to have slaves?



Clarify this. Are you asking whether or not I think a state can legally allow slavery today? Are you asking whether or not I think a state can morally allow slavery today?

Quote:

What if Kentucky wanted to leave the Union tomorrow?



I'd be fine with it.

Quote:

What if Kentucky wanted to enslave every black tomorrow? They would no longer be able to own property or learn how to read or write, and if they get out of line, you simply whip that dumb nigger into submission.



Assuming they seceded, I would not support sending the United States military into Kentucky to emancipate the newly enslaved slaves. Now if you and some volunteers nationwide wanted to get together and lay seige to Kentucky until they relented, that would be your prerogative. Hell, I might even join you depending on whether or not I had something better to do.

Quote:


No fine line there for you my man. You can't even see the damned line.



Get off your high horse please. I've nowhere said slavery is a good thing, that I support it, that I wish we had slavery now, or anything like that, so don't you dare put those words into my mouth. What I am saying is that the South should have been allowed to secede, that the North should not have waged the bloodiest war in history to prevent the south from seceding. The War between the States was ****not**** started to free the slaves. If you require me to make a historical case for that I will, though if you don't believe it by now you probably just don't want to believe it. Again, the War was not initially fought to free the slaves. It was fought to preserve the union, nothing more nothing less (though why Lincoln and his backers wanted to preserve the union is itself a distinct topic). The relevant question is not whether or not it was right for the union to start a war to free the slaves as that is nothing more than a straw man -- the relevant question is whether or not the Southern states had the right to secede and, furthermore, whether or not the Northern states had the right or obligation to stop them.

Quote:


You do make some good points about the tariffs. You can point to plenty of reasons for agitation, but don't act like slavery had nothing to do with it. Slavery was an issue, and revisionists can't do anyting about it 140 years later.



It was certainly an issue, it's just not an issue as far as the scope of this thread is concerned, however much you would like it to be so.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5257270 - 02/02/06 09:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

So I guess if Kentucky wanted to leave the Union today, that would be fine by you, as it is there Constitutional right.

If Kentucky wanted to enslave people, that would be their right. They would be on their own, who are we to tell them what to do. They have a right to break away and make their own laws.

Following along, if Kentucky wanted to slaughter all the Negros, that would be their right as well. Why not? Taste just like chicken.

Not saying that I am for slaughtering Negros, and I am sure that you would clarify that you are against slaughtering Negros as well. We stand strong in our opposition to slaughtering Negros. But by the same token, you wouldn't have much of a problem with the Constitutionality of killing all those people as long as the people of Kentucky thought it was a fine idea.

Am I right? Just wanted to clarify. To repeat. Tomorrow, Kentucky breaks away from the union. You would support that, no? Then Kentucky decides to start killing people? Would the Federal Government have anything to say or do once Kentucky broke from the Union? I imagine you would let the fine and decent people of Kentucky do what they please.

Is that correct?


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5257607 - 02/02/06 10:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I would. We're paying for enough wars as it is. If a group of concerned citizens wants to invade the country of Kentucky to stop the slaughter that's their business.

But I think it's a safe bet that the pressure of allowing a genocide so close to home would surely crumble the federal resolve to stay out of it, and there'd be another war. That or the blacks in the US would riot and an all out civil war would commence.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5258250 - 02/03/06 03:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
So I guess if Kentucky wanted to leave the Union today, that would be fine by you, as it is there Constitutional right.



Uh, yes? Allowing people to do as they please is part of what the constitution is about... whats the big deal?
Quote:


If Kentucky wanted to enslave people, that would be their right.




Nope, it's prohibited by the constitution. If you meant "After their sucession...", then it's not my business. Africa still has slavery, the white slave trade, especially around Israel, is booming in the middle east. Want to go to war with every nation, tribe and organization that supports slavery world-wide?
Quote:


Following along, if Kentucky wanted to slaughter all the Negros, that would be their right as well. Why not? Taste just like chicken.




I wouldn't SUPPORT their actions anymore than I support the massacre of white farmers by negros in South America. So, reversing your situation, in a country that isn't America (as Kentucky would be after sucession), people are being slaughtered because of their race. What action do YOU Want undertaken to stop the massacres and rapes in South Africa? Probably some sanctions, bullshit like that. Why not a full-scale invasion and military police presence to prevent it? because it's not our goddamned business, thats why. Same answer for ex-Kentucky, or whatever.
Quote:


Not saying that I am for slaughtering Negros, and I am sure that you would clarify that you are against slaughtering Negros as well. We stand strong in our opposition to slaughtering Negros. But by the same token, you wouldn't have much of a problem with the Constitutionality of killing all those people as long as the people of Kentucky thought it was a fine idea.




If Kentucky secedeed from the Union, they'd be about as much required or compelled to obey the US constitution as Angorra is. They wouldn't be a part of the Union any longer. Again, lots of countries out there are fucked up shitholes, what do you want us to to about it?
Quote:


Am I right? Just wanted to clarify. To repeat. Tomorrow, Kentucky breaks away from the union. You would support that, no? Then Kentucky decides to start killing people? Would the Federal Government have anything to say or do once Kentucky broke from the Union? I imagine you would let the fine and decent people of Kentucky do what they please.




People who don't understand freedom are just so ignorant that you can't ram an explanation down their throat. If a part of the United States, a federation of republic states, wanted to separate from that federation and they did so by law, I wouldn't have a problem with it. After that, it's just not that big of a concern. I'd have a moral problem with them massacring negros as I would with the Maoists in Nepal massacring villagers and as big of a problem as I'd have with the negros in South Africa that can't seem to stop raping and murdering white farmers. Do I think that the US should send troops in to every one of these places? Of course not. Do you?


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5259491 - 02/03/06 02:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
I would. We're paying for enough wars as it is. If a group of concerned citizens wants to invade the country of Kentucky to stop the slaughter that's their business.

But I think it's a safe bet that the pressure of allowing a genocide so close to home would surely crumble the federal resolve to stay out of it, and there'd be another war. That or the blacks in the US would riot and an all out civil war would commence.




This seems more likely, if the institution of slavery was resurgent I am very sure in my belief that every gun toting negro would infact be fierce in their determination against slavery, swift to violence and terrible in their onlsaught.


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Asshole

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5259520 - 02/03/06 02:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So I guess if Kentucky wanted to leave the Union today, that would be fine by you, as it is there Constitutional right.



No, it would be fine because it is their moral right.

Quote:


If Kentucky wanted to enslave people, that would be their right. They would be on their own, who are we to tell them what to do. They have a right to break away and make their own laws.



If Kentucky was no longer part of the United States then enslaving people would be their prerogative, not their right. You have no *right* to enslave me and the people of Kentucky would have no *right* to enslave anyone else involuntarily.

Quote:



Following along, if Kentucky wanted to slaughter all the Negros, that would be their right as well. Why not? Taste just like chicken.



Again, no, you have no right to initiate force against someone else.

Quote:

But by the same token, you wouldn't have much of a problem with the Constitutionality of killing all those people as long as the people of Kentucky thought it was a fine idea.



As we're assuming that Kentucky is no longer beholden to the Constitution, then the Constitutionality of anything, whether it's stifling speech, quartering troops in the houses of citizens against their will, or murdering negros, is irrelevant. I would have a moral problem with it, not a Constitutional problem.

Quote:

Tomorrow, Kentucky breaks away from the union. You would support that, no?



I would support their right to secede, yes. This is not the same thing as supporting their cause or supporting everything they represent.

Quote:

Then Kentucky decides to start killing people? Would the Federal Government have anything to say or do once Kentucky broke from the Union? I imagine you would let the fine and decent people of Kentucky do what they please.

Is that correct?



I would not have the Federal Government enter a sovereign nation that poses no threat to the United States. Now, again, if the national and international communities believe this is an outrage (and it is) you should get together, organize an army out of volunteers, and do what you will. The American military's job should be to protect Americans, nothing more.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: America is on the brink of civil war!!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5259592 - 02/03/06 02:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Angalgon stated:

The American military's job should be to protect Americans, nothing more.



In military science, their are numerous standard operating procedures in regards to protection. Perimeter security (our borders), is only ONE of these SOPs.

For example: the garrison of troops in bases throughout the world

This ensures combat logistics as well as strategic significance.

I am not sure if you were hinting at the USA's role in foreign nations, however, if you were, please understand that you will not be able to adequately protect Americans without putting our troops in places throughout the world.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/03/06 02:45 PM)

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