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Invisiblesunconscious
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What is the role of psilocybin?
    #525068 - 01/18/02 11:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

In the mushroom... why is psilocybin formed, what is its purpose in the mushroom? Why is this molecule, and many other hallucinogens formed? What role do they play in the growth of the mushroom?

I've heard the response: "So animals dont eat the mushrooms". That doesnt explain what psilocybin *does* in the mushroom though. Assume that no one is going to eat the mushroom, and that it will just grow old and die.

Is there any information on the internet about this? Any similar info on other drugs, like THC, would be appreciated too!


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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525184 - 01/19/02 01:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You may as well have stuck with this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum1&Number=519340&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I've heard the response: "So animals dont eat the mushrooms". That doesnt explain what psilocybin *does* in the mushroom though.

Sure it does. It explains that the psilocybin lies dormant, in case an animal eats it.

> Assume that no one is going to eat the mushroom, and that it will just grow old and die.

Then the psilocybin has done its role in its species, and has protected it from being eaten before it could spread its spres.

> Is there any information on the internet about this?

No. Nobody has ever thought about this before.

Yes, besides the above link I posted there are a bunch of online books that discuss this.


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Invisiblesunconscious
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: Kid]
    #525212 - 01/19/02 02:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>> I've heard the response: "So animals dont eat the mushrooms". That doesnt explain what psilocybin *does* in the mushroom though.
>
>Sure it does. It explains that the psilocybin lies dormant, in >case an animal eats it.

Sure, it sounds nice when you hear it, but it doesnt prove anything. Animals not eating psilocybin doesnt prove it is dormant. That doesnt make sense at all. Psilocybin may have another role, the "defense" being a side-effect.

It seems strange that the mushroom would produce many other alkaloids when only psilocybin is needed for defense. Its not even a very good defense, as there are other mushrooms with actual poison in them.

It seems more like an absurd strategy to attract predators than to disuade them. Like a fruit, the fruit evolved to be eaten so that youll poo the seeds somewhere else. Perhaps the mushroom has a similar trick.

>Yes, besides the above link I posted there are a bunch of online books that discuss this.

Like what?


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Offlinefelix
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525229 - 01/19/02 02:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

umm...no.

an animal would not like a trippy experience and would remember not to eat the fucking mushroom. god/earth didn't create psilocybin for you to trip. i think if you want spiirtual type shit like, "god wanted to open our eyes and whatnot" go to the spirituality forum.

it makes plenty of sense. primal instinct of the animal says "don't eat that shit again, you wigged out, rember that peanut brain?"


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Offlinefelix
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525233 - 01/19/02 02:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

the mushroom producing the psilocybin along with the other alkaloids was a process of evolution and adaptation. it was probably being eaten alot, not allowing to reproduce. therefore, it created it's 'defense'.


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Anonymous

Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525253 - 01/19/02 03:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Any basic biology book that mentions secondary metabolite production. Plant and Fungal physiology books. They are not gonna mention Psilocybin specifically, except to discuss its metabolic pathway, but they will give you a well rounded understanding of the basic groups of Secondary metabolites.
Terpenes, Phenols, and Alkaloids.
All have anti predation properties, along with other properties. Because some animals can eat them without dying, or are even attracted to them, just shows an example of counteradaptation. This is not a stagnant system you live in. Things evolve constantly. A plant evolves a defense strategy, and insect, or animal evolves a counter defense.
Because people can eat Psilocybin and not die, doesn't mean it is not a hazard to some people, or some animals. You have the ability to sit in an apartment or house somewhere on a heavy dose, with little worry of immediate danger from predation. Some animal out in the wild eats a few, and it can be a life or death mistake.
You could even say that modern man has counteradapted back to defend itself against the Psilocybin mushroom. He has created laws that make it a crime to even possess them.
But some men have counteradapted back against these laws.

Psilocybin to me is memory of the interconnectedness of everything.


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Offlinefelix
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: ]
    #525258 - 01/19/02 03:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

nice...


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Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug


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Invisiblesunconscious
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: felix]
    #525515 - 01/19/02 01:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

wtf guys!!!

I am not talking about god here, or evolution, im talking about BIOLOGY! The question was not mysterious, the answer shouldnt be either.

Does anyone even understand what I am trying to ask?

I am trying to find scientific information on how psilocybin works in the mushroom.


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Invisiblesunconscious
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525519 - 01/19/02 01:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

and i thought that shrooms calmed people down.

lol


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Edited by sunconscious (01/19/02 05:32 PM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525628 - 01/19/02 03:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hi Subconscious,

well yes there are somne assholes here and at the other forums who like to cause problems with serious questions.

I will try to keep this simple and in the animal examination portion of your question.

Animals do eat psilocybian mushrooms. Reindeers love Amanita's but are know to consume psilocybe species. So do squirrells, but the biggeet lover of mushrooms is the slug. Some species of slugs can smell Amanita mushrtooms for over a half-mile, the same as deer.

Dogs and cats on the other hand usually avoid mushrooms unless some low-life idiot attempts to put them in an animals food (pet animal, that is), most animals will avoid them.

In Australia, wallabys dig up mushrooms and eat them after forest burns and new growth appears on the forest floor.

Cows int he pastures always eat the shrooms, not becasue they are shrooms but because the mushrooms are in the clumps of grass the cow is churdling in his or her jaw. They chew on them, both P. cubensis and the abundant Copelandia cyanescens are consumed by the dozens in certain fields where Copelandia's abound by the thousands. The cows most likely are affected by the chemicals if they consume enough. On the other hand, maybe the8ir motabilism is tolerance level and they do not get off but maintain a steady life support system for the tolerance from constantly consuming the shrooms.

On Oahu, I and Mark MErlin have both observed fresh shrooms dangliung from the mouth of cows while chewing the grasses from the ground.

In Asia I have seen three species of water Bufallo eating Copelandias while grazing.

Why do the shr9oms produce psilocybine. Only God really knows. We can all assume but the word is ass you me (assume).

mj


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Invisiblesunconscious
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #525675 - 01/19/02 05:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

thank you very much for your reply mjshroomer! :)

I was aware that some large mammals ate mushrooms, but I didnt realize smaller ones (squirrels) and even slugs do too! Thats very interesting to me.

When growing marijuana plants in the wild, many mammals are a problem: bears, deer, monkeys, etc. They will eat the entire crop in one night! Also slugs in BC.

The psychedelic self-defense theory has to be reworked. I think it is only half the story here. Some animals cant eat it, some can, some do, some dont. The majority cannot consume alot and survive, but can consume a small amount and benefit. The evidence doesnt add up to a neat and tidy theory.

I was thinking that the alkaloids formed some sort of molecular system that instructed or helped the growth of the mushroom. When we eat it, our brains interact with those molecules. But of course I have no proof, either for or against. I hope to see some conclusive research within my lifetime, maybe I could help, but I have no idea where to start ;)


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Anonymous

Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #525993 - 01/20/02 12:15 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You were given biological answers, apparently you weren't paying attention.
Alkaloids have Anti- predation properties. Phenols have anti fungal, and anti bacterial, and anti predation, and anti competition properties. Terpenes also have anti-predation properties. Some secondary metabolites are pigmentation products with attractive qualities to insects. No one is claiming it is the only reason they are present, nothing stands alone in this world with only one purpose. This is just the theory that has been studied the most, hence carries the most scientific weight. It is by no means all inclusive, or exclusive. It is just where science is at right now.
Counteradaptation is a scientific word, not a religous word. It is the process by which one organism may adapt to another. A simple example would be Monarch butterlies. Do a search on them and their feeding habits. THIS IS COUNTERADAPTATION. If you eat their food source, you are in for a world of hurt.
Over time, and if laws change, maybe other studies will provide new theories on Secondary metabolites. Particularly Psilocybin.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #526039 - 01/20/02 12:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> >Sure it does. It explains that the psilocybin lies dormant, in case an animal eats it.

> Sure, it sounds nice when you hear it, but it doesnt prove anything.

No, it doesn't prove anything, but it still serves as an explanation.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #526040 - 01/20/02 12:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> I am not talking about god here, or evolution, im talking about BIOLOGY!

Last I heard, evolution was a theory used to describe biological systems.


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Offlinemindvox
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: sunconscious]
    #528233 - 01/22/02 02:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think that the purely biological hypotheses for evolution has to be flawed. Pure adaptation does not cut it when you really dig deep into the issue. For example, there are plants that look like a female bee's ass. The point of it is of course that the bee is gonna fuck this natural blow up doll and go to another plant and spread its seed. The question is how in the hell with millions of different species of insects, did the genetics of the plant know that if it makes the shape(and smell) of a female bee (the one that always comes to visit) that it will have a better chance of surviving? What the scientific view lacks is the role of conciousness in the grand scheme of things. The just assume that the universe just goes doing its thing, and by accident it produces consciousness. But there would be no universe if no one was there to percieve it. When Einstein discovered his theory of relativity, it was based on the assumption that light has to travel the same speed for everyone. He took consciouness into account. The same goes for evolution. I think that on the quantum level consciousness(collective and otherwise) is communicating with genetics to create the shape of consiousness itself. Consciousness responds to genetics and genetics responds to consciousness. And in this view it could be seen as the mushroom "knowing" that if it produces this thing that is related to chemicals in the animal brain and particulary the human, it will a) have a species that is concerned for the welfare of the mushroom and b) has a bigger evolutionary goal that takes into account the anticipation the the human factor in the evolutionary phenomena and looks for an antidote. Of course this can't be scientifically proved but science is only one side of the coin and is not designed to answer all of the mysteries of the universe. Science can only explain structure not content.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: mindvox]
    #528581 - 01/22/02 10:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What's this have to do with mushrooms?

You're forgetting that evolution could be a passive process. It might not necessarily be the case that the organisms are playing an active role. Thus, your assumption that organisms are intentionally adapting to their environment may not be correct.

> When Einstein discovered his theory of relativity, it was based on the assumption that light has to travel the same speed for everyone. He took consciouness into account.

No, he took observation into account. Einstein based relativity on the idea that no matter what speed you're travelling at light will always be observed to be travelling at the same speed. He took consciousness into account as much as any other physicist has.

Saying that science only explains certain aspects of the physical world doesn't help your argument. Your argument seems to be based purely on speculation. That means nothing.

Oh yeah, and content and structure are necessarily abstractions. You cannot have a structure devoid of content just as content cannot be without structure.


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Offlinemindvox
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: Kid]
    #528804 - 01/23/02 03:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)


The topic had to do with the role of psilocybin in mushrooms. There was an assumption that it had to do with survival. I made the proposition that survival in a species is very creative and brought about the case of the plant that has the ass of a bee on its flower. I surmised that there has to be some kind of communication that is going on that allows the plant genetics to know the characteristics of the bee and its mating program, and be able to "think" out a strategy to use that to its advantage. There are an infinite forms of insects the flower could have emulated, some that are alive today and some that are imaginary. To be able to get it right is more than just natural selection. What was the role of the female bee's ass on the flower? To allow the bee to progate it. What is the role of psilocybin in mushrooms? To allow us to propagate it. Its a valid evolutionary tactic. Its much more forward looking and calculating to do something like that. And it implies an intelligence that has not been accounted for. A collective intelligence that is concerned about the welfare of all the species as a unit. That is why I don't think that evolution is a passive thing. There is nothing passive about struggling to survive. They are playing an active role. If by passive you mean they are not aware that they are contributing to the adaptation to their environment, then I would agree. They are not aware of it they are unconscious of it. Its the dialog of the conscious and unconcious that determines the best course of action for the species. For example why did fish loose there fins and started to walk on land? Why did the whale, that used to be on land, go back to the sea and grow fins again? There was first the desire to be there then nature responds by giving the appropriate tools to accomidate the desire of the species. This is of course all speculation but no more so than darwinism. Just cause some dude in the 19th century said natural selection is how it works, makes it no more so then if jesus christ died for your sins cause the pope said so.
When Einstein made his assumption he felt that perception is so important that the physical universe revolves around it. Regardless of how much physicists try to take conscioussness out of the equation they still are thinking about it, and therefore plays the most fundamental role in science. In other words if there was no consciousness there wouldn't be a theory of anything anywhere. All arguments are based on speculation. You have an opinion and you put it out. You can have data to back up your claim, you can use philosophy, creativity or whatever. Its all a myth. Science doesn't say anything more about who we are and where we are going then any religion does. It all means nothing. When science tells you that E=mc2. Its saying that Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared. It doesn't tell you what energy is in and of itself. Science cannot tell you what matter is. They will tell you how much it weighs, how fast its spins, or if there is any other particles that it is made of. But it won't tell you what those particles are. Saying they are protons and neutrons and electrons and quarks does say anything. Naming something doesn't tell you what it is. Only that its something and that something has been given a name. Structure and content are different things altogether. If I say (A or B) not A therefore B, I am giving you a structure without content. It doesn't matter what the A or B is. The argument is gonna hold true. All logic is like that. That is how we can generalize. Therefore its only a tool to build stuff with, to build structures. Whether or not they are buildings, telescopes, spaceships, or logical abstractions its all still just a construction in one form or another.




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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: mindvox]
    #529267 - 01/23/02 06:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> To be able to get it right is more than just natural selection.

Not necessarily. If getting it wrong means that existence for a species is discontinued, then natural selection could be conceived as a random, passive process of selection.

> What was the role of the female bee's ass on the flower? To allow the bee to progate it. What is the role of psilocybin in mushrooms? To allow us to propagate it.

I guess the mushroom didn't take into account the possibility of drug prohibition. Either way this is a bit too much of a stretch. Freak accident is still a possibility.

> And it implies an intelligence that has not been accounted for.

But it doesn't mean that a mushroom would be any more intelligent than a species of grass, or a form of bacteria. In fact, bacteria seems to be remarkably more adaptable than mushrooms, so I think your implication is seriously disappointing.

> There is nothing passive about struggling to survive.

No. The thing is though that's assuming that the process of evolution is a "struggle." Your choice of verb is constructing evolution as an active process. I could just as easily say that "There is nothing active about accidentally not becoming extinct."

> There was first the desire to be there then nature responds by giving the appropriate tools to accomidate the desire of the species.

That's a major fallacy. You're assuming and attributing psychological motives which may or may not be unique to human beings and applying them to other species. How can you make such a statement about the subjective experience of other species?

> This is of course all speculation but no more so than darwinism.

No, you're making much larger assumptions.

> When Einstein made his assumption he felt that perception is so important that the physical universe revolves around it.

Again, it didn't have so much to do with perception as it had to do with measurement. Even scientific instruments are affected by the laws of relativity. And obviously, the speed of light would be measured by instruments, and not by an individual's perception. But this has nothing to do with mushrooms.

> Regardless of how much physicists try to take conscioussness out of the equation they still are thinking about it, and therefore plays the most fundamental role in science. In other words if there was no consciousness there wouldn't be a theory of anything anywhere.

That doesn't necessarily mean that consciousness is the determining factor of the universe. Science is about observed phenomenon. Yes, the phenomenon have to be observed (beheld by consciousness), but that doesn't make much of a statement about the causal role of consciouness in the physical world.

> Science doesn't say anything more about who we are and where we are going then any religion does.

The subject of this thread is not humanity. The subject of the thread is the role of psiloc(yb)in in the mushroom.

> Structure and content are different things altogether.

They are still abstractions. You cannot have one without the other.

> If I say (A or B) not A therefore B, I am giving you a structure without content.

That's ridiculous. You can't force structure and content apart. Your "logical" statement doesn't really even make any sense.

> It doesn't matter what the A or B is. The argument is gonna hold true. All logic is like that.

In the above case your argument is not even logical. In your above argument you are setting the condition that structure and content are mutually exclusive, which is the opposite of the truth. Therefore, your initial premise is false.

> Whether or not they are buildings, telescopes, spaceships, or logical abstractions its all still just a construction in one form or another.

Yes, and even your silly argument is a construction, and all constructions contain content. In this case, your construction is like a skyscraper made out of sand.


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Offlinemindvox
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: Kid]
    #529794 - 01/24/02 05:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> To be able to get it right is more than just natural selection.

Not necessarily. If getting it wrong means that existence for a species is discontinued, then natural selection could
be conceived as a random, passive process of selection.

It could and it couldn't.



> What was the role of the female bee's ass on the flower? To allow the bee to progate it. What is the role of
psilocybin in mushrooms? To allow us to propagate it.

I guess the mushroom didn't take into account the possibility of drug prohibition. Either way this is a bit too much
of a stretch. Freak accident is still a possibility.

Just as much so as the other possiblility.



> And it implies an intelligence that has not been accounted for.

But it doesn't mean that a mushroom would be any more intelligent than a species of grass, or a form of bacteria.
In fact, bacteria seems to be remarkably more adaptable than mushrooms,

Its all the same intelligence.



> so I think your implication is seriously disappointing.

I don't aim to please.


> There is nothing passive about struggling to survive.

> No. The thing is though that's assuming that the process of evolution is a "struggle." Your choice of verb is
constructing evolution as an active process. I could just as easily say that "There is nothing active about
accidentally not becoming extinct."

How is assuming evolution as being a passive process a more valid perspective?



> There was first the desire to be there then nature responds by giving the appropriate tools to accomidate the
desire of the species.

That's a major fallacy. You're assuming and attributing psychological motives which may or may not be unique to
human beings and applying them to other species. How can you make such a statement about the subjective
experience of other species?

I am not talking about psychology. I am talking about consciousness and its role in the ecosystem. How can you
make an objective argument about something that can't be proved either way?



> This is of course all speculation but no more so than darwinism.

No, you're making much larger assumptions.

Is it a larger assumption that the chicken came first or the egg? Or is it an even larger assumption that they came into
existence at the exact same time?




> When Einstein made his assumption he felt that perception is so important that the physical universe revolves
around it.

Again, it didn't have so much to do with perception as it had to do with measurement. Even scientific instruments
are affected by the laws of relativity. And obviously, the speed of light would be measured by instruments, and not
by an individual's perception.

Not if we didn't make those instruments. Any instrument that we make is an extension of our own perception.


But this has nothing to do with mushrooms.

Its all connected.


> Regardless of how much physicists try to take conscioussness out of the equation they still are thinking about it,
and therefore plays the most fundamental role in science. In other words if there was no consciousness there
wouldn't be a theory of anything anywhere.


>That doesn't necessarily mean that consciousness is the determining factor of the universe.

It might. Ignoring consciousness is not going to answer that question any more so.



Science is about
observed phenomenon. Yes, the phenomenon have to be observed (beheld by consciousness), but that doesn't
make much of a statement about the causal role of consciouness in the physical world.

And science doesn't make much of a statement about the acausal role of consciousness in the physical world.



> Science doesn't say anything more about who we are and where we are going then any religion does.

> The subject of this thread is not humanity. The subject of the thread is the role of psiloc(yb)in in the mushroom.

The subject was about the evolutionary role of psilocybin in mushrooms and its function for survival. The ideas that
were put forth was from the darwinian perspective. I offered to expand that perspective. By including the consciousness factor (which is loosely defined to include all possiblities of what consciousness could be), we cross the line into religion(which is also as loosely defined as conciousness is). The fact that mushrooms are practicely synonymous with the religious experience and the fact that so many people who consume mushrooms are motivated by a religious drive suggests the the role of psilocybin as being a religious one. But what I was doing in that statement was to equate science with religion, which is what science really is. Its another manifestations of the logos, albiet a very pure one. I brought that up to show that when we talk about the origins of life it all boils down to just belief, plain and simple.


> Structure and content are different things altogether.

> They are still abstractions. You cannot have one without the other.

You may have a point in the physical world. Just like you can't have consciousness without a universe and vise versa.


> If I say (A or B) not A therefore B, I am giving you a structure without content.

That's ridiculous. You can't force structure and content apart. Your "logical" statement doesn't really even make
any sense.

That logical structure does make sense. If I throw some content in there it would sound like this: Either an apple
or a banana. Its not an Apple, therefore its a banana. The conclusion is true as long as apple and banana are your initial assumptions. If you can't seperate stucture from content you can't generalize. I may have used words to make the stucture. But those words have a stucture called a definition. And the all the words in the defintion have defintions. There has to be a point where you just agree at a starting point. That starting point is just a matter of reference. In this
case I used Apple and Banana as a starting point. The ultimate starting point is in the form of I, as in I am... But that can't happen until there is at least two things in the universe. Then what "I am" can only be determined by refererencing what "you are".



> Whether or not they are buildings, telescopes, spaceships, or logical abstractions its all still just a construction in
one form or another.

Yes, and even your silly argument is a construction, and all constructions contain content.

These posts are a silly argument. And it will go on ad nauseum if someone doesn't stop. So the buck stops here. If you feel you need to make your final arguments, I will understand, but this is my final reply on the subject.


> In this case, your construction is like a skyscraper made out of sand.

Or better yet, my imagination........



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InvisibleKid
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Re: What is the role of psilocybin? [Re: mindvox]
    #530527 - 01/24/02 11:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> It could and it couldn't.

That's why I said "not necessarily."

> How is assuming evolution as being a passive process a more valid perspective?

I never said that it was more valid. I was just pointing out that your choice of verb ("to stuggle") constructs it as an active verb and therefor necessitates the conclusion of an active process ("nothing passive about", which in this case is your premise). My analysis here was to point out that your word play was validating itself only to reify your point instead of contributing to your argument, which it purported to do.

> I am not talking about psychology. I am talking about consciousness and its role in the ecosystem.

You applied motives to this consciousness. Motives are psychological, and not an inherent part of consciousness.

> Is it a larger assumption that the chicken came first or the egg? Or is it an even larger assumption that they came into
existence at the exact same time?

Your analogy makes no sense... if it is, in fact, supposed to be an analogy (?).

> And science doesn't make much of a statement about the acausal role of consciousness in the physical world.

Whether or not consciousness exists, or is simply an abstraction is still a matter of philosophical debate. I guess scientists don't feel comfortable attempting to observe a phenomenon which may not be observable, or may not exist at all.

> which is loosely defined to include all possiblities of what consciousness could be

Which I assume includes possibilities which are intended to be mutually exclusive to each other? So, you're using a definition of consciousness which is self-contradictory?

> The fact that mushrooms are practicely synonymous with the religious experience and the fact that so many people who consume mushrooms are motivated by a religious drive suggests the the role of psilocybin as being a religious one.

Yes, but you must also remember that your point of view could be seen as a cultural construction. People who disagree with your viewpoint will simply rely on factual arguments to dispute you.

And you failed to show how structure can be separate from content.

I don't want to talk about this anymore with you either...


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