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Gratos
Just thinkin anddrinkin

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 1,374
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LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides
#5233244 - 01/27/06 10:05 PM (18 years, 4 days ago) |
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Is it actually doable? I know its theoretically possible but to the best of my knowledge it has never been documented. Of course youre yields would be low but who cares really if youre yields were low, you just created LSD . No, Im not thinking of making LSD Im just thinking out loud. I know there are many, many more hurdles along the way that would be much more difficult to solve then a simple precurser substitution nor am I willing to risk 30 years in prison at this point in my life.
Edited by Gratos (01/27/06 10:06 PM)
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Koala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Gratos]
#5233523 - 01/27/06 11:15 PM (18 years, 4 days ago) |
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Yields wouldn't be low of it was done right. The problem is the starting material, and getting some form of pure LSA.
LSA extractions are generally shit. You get a whole bunch of alkaloids, none of which crystalize if they aren't pretty damn pure (something unacceptable in this kind of chemistry.)
But provided you had a good amount of LSA? Sure, just as good as having ET. Take a little KOH, and you've got Lysergic Acid (and some iso-lysergic acid to clean up). At that point, you're right on track for many synths... including shulgin's I believe.
You still need diethylamine, among many other things and equipment.
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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Lysergic_Milkman
Dr. Fist


Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5235048 - 01/28/06 11:57 AM (18 years, 3 days ago) |
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Yeah you could do that, but it wouls actually be simpler to synthesize LSD from scratch than try to convert it from LSA.
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Koala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
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Care to back that up? I'm no chemist, but from what I've read that statement is false. It should be just as easy to use ET as LSA. Perhaps you meant to say it would be easier than to make it from morning glory seeds?
The difficult part is getting any kind of pure LSA from the seeds. Once you have that, hydrolysis with KOH and you're right on track with so many published synths.
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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Gratos
Just thinkin anddrinkin

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 1,374
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I would be interested in knowing what the "start from scratch" comment means. Hom much more basic can we get?
Elgr, ever read the extraction presented in Psychadelic Chemistry and what are your thoughts on it? It seems to me that it can produce a very pure product if done correctly, what are your thoughts on it. Its not for someone with no prior experience in chemistry but to a 1st yr college chemistry student its not that hard. Most high school chemistry students should be able to pull it off without much real difficulty and a little practice.
Edited by Gratos (01/28/06 09:37 PM)
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fazdazzle
Wanderer

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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Gratos]
#5236638 - 01/28/06 09:56 PM (18 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Gratos said: Hom much more basic can we get?
One could basically build the LSD molecule from nothing, if one so desires.
LSA -> LSD is like making a white russian...which was delicious tonight.
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Gratos
Just thinkin anddrinkin

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 1,374
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: fazdazzle]
#5236688 - 01/28/06 10:15 PM (18 years, 3 days ago) |
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Im talking within the realm of probability and not possibility
Quote:
white russian...which was delicious tonight.
Yes, they are quite good. I wish it wasnt so late here or Id go pick up some Kahlua.
Edited by Gratos (01/28/06 10:17 PM)
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Koala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Gratos]
#5236712 - 01/28/06 10:22 PM (18 years, 3 days ago) |
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Don't believe I have... but I've read a lot of synths, so it is quite possible. Any link to it?
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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Gratos
Just thinkin anddrinkin

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 1,374
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5239553 - 01/29/06 06:29 PM (18 years, 2 days ago) |
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Well, no actually I dont. Its from MVS's book, Psyhadelic Chemistry (basic LSD enthusiac reading). I can type it in I guess but Im not too enthusiastic about typing in 3+ pages.
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Lysergic_Milkman
Dr. Fist


Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5239684 - 01/29/06 07:02 PM (18 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
elgr said: Perhaps you meant to say it would be easier than to make it from morning glory seeds?
The difficult part is getting any kind of pure LSA from the seeds.
Yes, that is what I meant.
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Gratos
Just thinkin anddrinkin

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 1,374
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Ok, great. Thanks everyone.
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Koala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Gratos]
#5239876 - 01/29/06 07:58 PM (18 years, 2 days ago) |
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Lysergic_Milkman, yeah. It really isn't a "kitchen chemist's" task like DMT and mescaline are. One of the reasons that LSA chem extractions are a waste of time in my book. People tend to get more unpleasant effects than if they just use the old fashion method that Wasson described.
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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DocPsilocybin
enthusiast

Registered: 04/22/02
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Quote:
Lysergic_Milkman said: Yeah you could do that, but it wouls actually be simpler to synthesize LSD from scratch than try to convert it from LSA.
Are you serious? How exactly do you propose you're going to make LSD from "scratch"?
It is possible, theoretically, to produce LSD. If you had a supply of ergotamine tartrate or, better yet, a pure culture of ergot fungus you could produce it just like everyone else who makes acid. Of course LSD is inherently extremely unstable and you're probably going to need a pretty good idea what you're doing in a lab and a lot of chemicals and equipment that might be a challenge to get.
Negativity aside there was a guy who did produce some LSD. I think I saw him on the layceum board. He had a pretty good handle on chemistry and a fair bit of lab equipment and even then he had many trials and tribulations.
If anyone is seriously considering making LSD I hope they have a really good handle on what they're doing. Nothing bugs me more than those people who think extracting the alkaloids from MG seeds will yield LSD. Argggggg!
Just in case someone is curious, here's a link
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal26.shtml
-------------------- You can't hold a man down without staying down with him. -- Booker T. Washington
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Koala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: DocPsilocybin]
#5240976 - 01/30/06 01:36 AM (18 years, 2 days ago) |
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The reason I responded to this thread was because of a synth being done on the hive, when it was up... involving extracted LSA, diethylamine, and peptide coupling. I don't suggest that its practical, simply possible. Total synthesis moves farther down the practicality scale.
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,792
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5241058 - 01/30/06 02:46 AM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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I've seen a synthesis for lysergic acid in a textbook.
It starts with indolepropionic acid, which is hydrogenated in the pyrrole ring. Then the propionic acid arm is bent over backwards to form a tricyclo analog, becoming an internal ketone at the 4 position. You now have a ketone (can form a double bond later on) in the right position which you can brominate to an alpha-bromo ketone which will readily accept a methylamine derivative containing an arm which will form the upper part of the ring that closes the tetrahydropyridine ring and supplies a precursor to the carboxylic acid of lysergic. You then aromatize the phucker and voila, a mixture of the four lysergic acids (D,L,normal and iso), two of which can be converted to normal d-lysergic acid.
So it can be done, but its the scenic route rather than the straightforward processes of practical LSD manufacture such as:
R-C(=O)-NR'2 + LiOH --alkaline hydrolysis--> R-C(=O)-OLi R-C(=O)-OLi + 2 SO3 ----> [R-C(=O)-OS(=O)2-OLi]SO3 [R-C(=O)-OS(=O)2-OLi]SO3 + 4 HN(CH2CH3)2 ----> R-C(=O)-N(CH2CH3)2 (LSD)
The complicated formula is a mixed anhydride of lysergic acid and lithium bisulfate, with a second SO3 added to the tetrahydropyridine nitrogen. This, however, readily comes off. If you look at this you'll have five easy steps:
1..Cultivation of Ergot 2..Isolation of ergotamides 3..hydrolysis of ergotamides 4..producing a mixed anhydride of lysergic acid 5..reacting this mixed acid anhydride with diethylamine
rather than the twenty I recall the total synthesis to have.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Konnrade
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Registered: 09/13/05
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Loc: LA Suburbs
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
#5241088 - 01/30/06 03:11 AM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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Ugh...
I have a feeling I'm going to be overwhelmed by the complexity of this chemistry even after I've gotten my BS in chem.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,792
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
#5241457 - 01/30/06 08:29 AM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
I've gotten my BS in chem.
There's no need to call it BS 
But seriously, the only viable route (and I think the only route being used) is conversion of natural lysergic acid amides.
Basically there are two different methods of synthesis used: Reaction of a mixed acid anhydride with diethylamine and Dehydration of the diethylamine salt of lysergic acid
The latter method afaik is seldom used, and usually like so:
R-COOH.HN(CH2CH3)2 + O=C(imidazole)2 --> LSD + CO2 + 2 imidazole
The most common reaction, the mixed anhydride, has many faces:
R-CO-Cl R-CO-N3 R-CO-O-OCCF3 R-CO-O-SO2-OLi
According to Shulgin the Lysergic acid chloride reaction is the most advantageous in practice. As far as I know it's produced using thionyl chloride or phosphous oxychloride, Shulgin preferring the latter.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,792
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
#5241566 - 01/30/06 09:34 AM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Wow!
I mean WOW! 
If you like LSD then please grab this pic and spread it far and wide ^_^
For most people it looks impressively intimidating but to people in the know it's an outline of a really simple and straightforward synthesis of lysergic acid. The high pressure hydrogenation reaction in the beginning can be avoided by using an alternative reaction scheme. The sheer number of steps is a bit problematic, but no particularly expensive or exotic reagents are required throughout the reaction.
Seeing this I have to say: Yes. I think its very possible that a determined and able scientist could produce entirely synthetic LSD in a toolshed laboratory.
Still, it would be a LOT easier to gather ergot sclerotia from a bag of organic rye, use those for liquid culture and isolation of Lysergic acid amides (see attachment, please download if you like acid ) and then use the Shulgin process to make LSD
But us mere mortals have other things to ponder. Did you know one bale of straw can be made to yield one ounce of Psilocybin? Let the Mushroom Cultivation forums show you how!
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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DocPsilocybin
enthusiast

Registered: 04/22/02
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
#5241669 - 01/30/06 10:27 AM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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Hey Wiccan, what's your chemistry background? It looks like you've done a few chemistry classes
It's unfortunate that it's only fun to make illegal drugs!
-------------------- You can't hold a man down without staying down with him. -- Booker T. Washington
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
#5243767 - 01/30/06 07:48 PM (18 years, 1 day ago) |
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So wiccan, what you're saying is that the synthesis entailed in your post uses no expensive or exotic reagents, and can be used to synthesize LSD from scratch?
Are these reagents scheduled, regulated, or watched?
The equipment for such a synthesis could be acquired, no doubt, far easier than a large quantity of ergotamine tartrate could be.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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