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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
    #5244447 - 01/30/06 10:09 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

It's theoretically possible I guess, but I doubt it has ever been done.


Edited by moecat (01/01/07 11:20 PM)


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: moecat]
    #5245251 - 01/31/06 02:17 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Well, perhaps one of the reasons it's never been done is because of the blatant illegality of it, and the lack of any financial reason to do so?

It may not be because it's not feasible, but because it may be more practical to stick with proven techniques.

Although I imagine it would require a well-equipped laboratory. However, for a person like me, accumulating laboratory apparatus is a matter-of-fact thing. It's a very fun and potentially useful hobby. For such a person, a synthesis from scratch might be possible.

I'll definitely be reading into this at a later date, when I've gotten enough of an education to better wrap my mind around it.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
    #5245365 - 01/31/06 03:17 AM (18 years, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Hey Wiccan, what's your chemistry background? It looks like you've done a few chemistry classes




I basically taught myself some basics of Chemistry, advancing through books with modest names to books with intimidating names :smile:
It's strictly on the hobby level. One of my main hobbies (fixations actually :wink:) is wanting to know how stuff works.

Chemistry first caught my eye as a young kid, 8yo perhaps, watching the splendor of consumer fireworks my dad lit up. Some tubes gave beautiful colored fires, other overwhelming bangs and others took off into the sky to create beauty there. That DEFINATELY caught my eye and my father (with a sci background) fanned the flames of my initial curiosity.
At age 12 I owned a Merck Index and it all went downhill from there :evil:

Quote:

So wiccan, what you're saying is that the synthesis entailed in your post uses no expensive or exotic reagents, and can be used to synthesize LSD from scratch?




Indeed, you start off with Indole-3-propionic acid. Now this is a plant growth hormone which I just checked, and saw offered at a price of $1.000 a kilo, which really isnt expensive if you consider it will ultimately yield an ounce or two of LSD.

The specialistic cyclic compound you see probably has to be custom synthesized, which you can do yourself from chloroacetone, ethylene glycol and methylamine or something to that effect.
The rest are just common run-of-the-mill lab reagents with thousands of uses each.

Tight spots would be the initial high pressure reaction and the reaction in liquid SO2 which probably requires a bit of pressure.
Both can probably be ommitted by use of a slightly modified scheme. This is where the university siddhi's come in which you need anyway to fill in the blanks in this outline.

But, like I said, it's overly complicated compared to the lysergic acid amides route. Allow me to outline this one start to finish:

1..gather ergot (in the field or from a bag of organic rye)
2..aerobic liquid culture in an "aquarium" using a broth of water, sugar, apple juice and plantfood
3..scoop out the myclium, basify with aq. lye
4..extract with chloroform or ether
5..extract into aquous citric acid, then basify
6..extract into chloroform or ether
7..evaporate to yield free bases of ergotamides.
8..react with aq. KOH
9..react with diethylamine and phosphorous oxychloride in chloroform
10.purify your LSD

And voila: LSD from an even scratchier scratch than the total synthesis, and drastically simplified!
Steps 1-7 are detailed in the document I attached 5 posts up and steps 8-10 are detailed in Shulgin's TiHKAL entry for LSD I linked to in the same post.

So its really not hard, a determined scientist ought to be able to acquire the knowledge needed to do it.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
    #5245387 - 01/31/06 03:56 AM (18 years, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
So its really not hard, a determined scientist ought to be able to acquire the knowledge needed to do it.




That's exciting news to me :laugh:


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OfflineeVil_
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
    #5245640 - 01/31/06 07:27 AM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

can you only use ergot harvested from rye? or can the ergot be harvested from any infect grain? because if it could, i once knew a guy who access to a small amount of ergot infested grains at certain times of the year. mostly wheat, barley, and triticale (which is a wheat/rye hybrid).

edit: usually in amounts <10g


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<Guest> has anyone ever heard of sprinklen a freshcow pattie w dust and hangin it from a tree in cheese cloth and watering it?


Edited by eVil_ (01/31/06 07:28 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: eVil_]
    #5245663 - 01/31/06 07:38 AM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

i once knew a guy who access to a small amount of ergot infested grains at certain times of the year. mostly wheat, barley, and triticale (which is a wheat/rye hybrid).




If that person also has a labnoratory you might want to give him a call :evil:

Remember, if there's no lab there is no virtue in Ergot of Rye, in fact it is a poisonous medicine rather than a recreational drug.

Quote:

wheat, barley, and triticale




Ergot grows on all those but it is specifically referred to as Ergot of Rye because it grows on rye to a far greater extent than on others.

No lab = academic discussion
Lab = STFU


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OfflineeVil_
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Asante]
    #5245683 - 01/31/06 07:48 AM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

i always found it odd that there was not much security over the ergot considering its uses, but things can be lax at times in the world of academia. one of the guys jobs was to go through certain samples and remove all of the ergot which was then thrown away. if only i knew then what i know now...


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<Guest> has anyone ever heard of sprinklen a freshcow pattie w dust and hangin it from a tree in cheese cloth and watering it?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: eVil_]
    #5245946 - 01/31/06 09:16 AM (18 years, 17 hours ago)

What *would* be interesting is to get hold of a producer strain  :evil:

To give you an example: In liquid culture a wild strain usually delivers 50-700mg ergotamides per liter. A producer strain however would deliver 2.500-3.000mg/liter.

To make the equasion more appealing: a small taters lab would use a bioreactor consisting of a 55 gallon drum



with broth, lets say insulated with blankets, warmed with an aquarium heater and aerated with a bubbler stone that feeds sterile air into the vessel. You inject a horse syringe of live culture inoculant (or spores) into it, lets say they got their ergot from a bag of organic rye, they multiplied it on agar, then made an agar/water smoothie and inject that into a water/sugar/applejuice/plantfertilizer broth.

After two weeks its harvest time, and out come 20 kilos of fresh Ergot of Rye, which is extracted.
If you used a wild strain (like in the example) your crop would be 10-150gr ergotamides, yielding say 5-75gr LSD.
Not bad!

If they had a producer strain however it would be 500-600gr yielding some 250-300gr LSD. Quite a difference for the same amount of work!

If you have a big fat huge piccard humongous LSD factory then you'd get a 20.000 liter bioreactor as used in antibiotics production which would fetch 25-30kg of LSD in one haul, a quarter billion strong blotters :evil:

But seriously, all this is a nice little pipe dream unless you have a dedicated lab and at least one dedicated able scientist.


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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides *DELETED* [Re: Konnrade]
    #5247665 - 01/31/06 04:52 PM (18 years, 9 hours ago)

Post deleted by moecat

Reason for deletion: redundant comment



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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: moecat]
    #5247742 - 01/31/06 05:06 PM (18 years, 9 hours ago)

Well, that's certainly a good point :blush:

But the mescaline and DMT extractions are time-tested and were around prior to the substances being made illegal, as were a number of synths for LSD.

I'm just saying that making a synthesis illegal is a serious impediment on the ability to perform further credible research. So it gets really hard to actually test out some hypothetical new synth. Since the existing ones are well enough available and their results are documented. There's more incentive to stick with the old ways than there is to risk trying some new way.


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
    #5247871 - 01/31/06 05:41 PM (18 years, 8 hours ago)

"And according to that logic, the extraction of either mescaline or DMT to a crystalline state is done because it's legal and financially makes sense?"

As far as the financial part... with a small scale thing like dmt and mescaline, you're spending much less considering equipment and all. For 100 to 110 max if you shop right, you could have 10 grams of dmt.


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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #5247932 - 01/31/06 06:09 PM (18 years, 8 hours ago)

ok this may seem like the most ignorant question ever but: why isn't Hofmann's process used? did he not pass down his information, or is it just so easy to mess it up and get an lsd spin off,way to expensive, or what is the reason that it's so difficult to make?


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: SapphireCat]
    #5247955 - 01/31/06 06:18 PM (18 years, 8 hours ago)

new synths emerge. Some might be better geared for the individual who can't get all these things legitimately. But also, it was 60+ years ago. If Shulgin didn't follow it, there must be a pretty good reason.


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!


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InvisibleGratos
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: SapphireCat]
    #5248103 - 01/31/06 06:57 PM (18 years, 7 hours ago)

Well, IMO at least, one of the reasons is that the DEA is not stupid and they have all their bases covered (of course it takes a while). They make the rules but the field is still playable.

Sorry for the bad analogy


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: SapphireCat]
    #5248185 - 01/31/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

SapphireCat said:
ok this may seem like the most ignorant question ever but: why isn't Hofmann's process used? did he not pass down his information, or is it just so easy to mess it up and get an lsd spin off,way to expensive, or what is the reason that it's so difficult to make?




I beleive I heard somewhere that Hoffman's laboratory notes have all been quietly edited, which may have been to keep the synth more of a secret.


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Konnrade]
    #5248249 - 01/31/06 07:20 PM (18 years, 7 hours ago)

"I beleive I heard somewhere that Hoffman's laboratory notes have all been quietly edited, which may have been to keep the synth more of a secret. "

Sounds like bullshit. Any source at all?

Why would he keep it a secret. He's still alive, there are tons of other synths, and as far as I'm aware, he has nothing against the production of acid, heh. I heard his most recent dose was a couple years ago... unless he did it in celebration of the symposium or his birthday.


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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides *DELETED* [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #5248585 - 01/31/06 08:37 PM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Post deleted by moecat

Reason for deletion: redundant comments again



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InvisibleGratos
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: moecat]
    #5248773 - 01/31/06 09:14 PM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

moecat said:
I tend to think the apparent success in extracting mescaline and certainly DMT has much more to do with the lack of relative difficulty of the process versus any LSD synthesis. It's not legal issues or financial motivation that determines how often these things are done. It's the required steps, experience, chemicals, and equipment that's the issue.




I completely disagree with you except when it come to the procurement of precursors. I believe the difficulty in procuring the precursors is the main difficulty in LSD production (equipment and its cost being a distant second) to the driven individual, there are many, most are above average intelligence and already capable of following a synth to success, although it will take some study. However to the above average driven individual, this is just a speed bump.

EDIT: My point is that for LSD there are many, many people smart people willing to experiment, learn and eventually succeed. Ive seen it time and time again. Actually, strange as it sounds I believe the main stumbling block to LSD production is the stereotype that its "so hard" and "impossible to do". If prejudices like this were not dropped we would have never discovered powered flight. If bias such as this are not dropped we will be forever raped by our laws that govern LSD.


Edited by Gratos (01/31/06 09:25 PM)


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: moecat]
    #5248782 - 01/31/06 09:15 PM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Well, I was mostly commenting on the financial part for a small scale extraction. So, in that aspect the equipment and chemicals you mention are what I was speaking of.

And legal issues also tie in. You're much more likely to get away with going to the store and buying some naptha, or lye than you are acquiring ET or diethylamine.


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InvisibleGratos
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Re: LSD from Lysergic Acid Amides [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #5248823 - 01/31/06 09:23 PM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

And legal issues also tie in. You're much more likely to get away with going to the store and buying some naptha, or lye than you are acquiring ET or diethylamine.





LOL
As Im sure you understand, that is the understatment of the decade.


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