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InvisibleShnezbit
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Datura and Castenada
    #4651871 - 09/12/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I've heard nothing but really bad things about datura. its nothing i would ever do. i was wondering why don juan of carlos castenadas books used it as an 'ally'? i think he smoked it, called it the devil's weed. is it more manageable smoked than eaten? do they smoke the flower? but the seeds are eaten?
weird sounding shit, personally i dont see the use of it even from a shamanistic viewpoint.


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OfflineTMonk
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4652046 - 09/12/05 09:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

explain what you mean by a shamanistic viewpoint


--------------------
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The sky was filled with stars,
while the sun,
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And eleven moons
ran across the rainbows
above me and you..."
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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: TMonk]
    #4652214 - 09/12/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Don Juan did not use Datura.  His ally was the mushroom.  He tried it, but didn't get along with it.  He gave both to Castaneda because he thought that it might prove to be a ally for him and wanted him to decide for himself.  If you go back you'll find that Don Juan DEFINITELY did not like Datura, but Castaneda seemed to get along pretty well on it.  It was very "shamanistic" for him.

Pre-emptive edit:  It can (and will) be said that DATURA was the one that didn't like Don Juan and that's why it wasn't his ally.  It was the plants(spirits) choice, not Don Juan's'. :wink:


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4653848 - 09/13/05 04:29 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i was wondering why don juan of carlos castenadas books used it as an 'ally'?




Because Don Juan was an entirely fictional character conjured up by an anthropologist who grabbed all sorts of details and shaped it into this fictioonal figure.

There was a sensation when R Gordon Wasson discovered the Psilocybin mushrooms so ole Carlos threw them in as well. Anyone who knows shrooms knows that they couldnt possibly have retained activity, nor be effective in that manner. Carlos changed the story several times, never did deliver proof of the reality of these adventures nor copuld he provide a credible descriotion or produce a mushroom sample.

It's been proven that "The Teachings of Don Juan" was just an anthropologist selling a fiction novel as truth when Hallucinogens were the hip thing.

For a shaman it can hold value, but then again shamans are prepared to take risks and endure dire ordeals that are entirely nonrecreational.


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InvisibleDickhead
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Asante]
    #4654155 - 09/13/05 11:00 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
shamans are prepared to take risks and endure dire ordeals that are entirely nonrecreational.




hmmm...  thats an interesting line.  I've prepared for Non-recreational dire ordeals.  After living in one for a few years  :smirk:

Mabey I should start looking for a shamanic teacher...  I should try to stay away from capitalist anthropologists however.


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OfflineCeeThruMeer
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Asante]
    #4657579 - 09/14/05 01:18 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
It's been proven that "The Teachings of Don Juan" was just an anthropologist selling a fiction novel as truth when Hallucinogens were the hip thing.


The first out of (8 - 10) books or something is the only one that has drug use in it. I don't think the hallucinogenic fad was a primary reason for writing the books. Fact or Fiction.


--------------------
"my old friend told me
to do well always
set your sails, open
ride your waves, flowing
just relax, sober
leave you past, it's over
bind two hands, stronger
my soul waits, forward" - Arjun and Guardians


Edited by CeeThruMeer (09/14/05 01:20 AM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Dickhead]
    #4658098 - 09/14/05 03:43 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I've prepared for Non-recreational dire ordeals. After living in one for a few years




Bless you for having lived through a dire ordeal for years, but are you really sure about this?

Some of the risks you will be taking are the risks of death, injury, brain damage and lasting psychological disturbances, the latter risk being incomprehensibly larger than with classic entheogens.

I myself use Datura, but in an extremely LOW dose combined with intensive depth meditation to bring out the visuals. (Or rather squeeze my consciousness through the crack in the Gate of Atropia instead of having the Gates of Atropia open wide buy using a large and physically dangerous amount.

The trick is to make sure to stay in the common medical range for the alkaloids and magnify this threshold state with efforts of your spirit. Now I'm sorry but you shouldn't trust your run-of-the-mill shaman with your life. He will nine out of ten times just toss a flower or some leaves in the pot, if you're *lucky* his preparation method converts the Hyoscyamine and Scopolamine into Atropine anmd Atroscine and if you happen to die in Atropia, hey he'll just say his prayers and bury you because "the spirits chose to take your life".

This spirits talk reflects the truth but another part of that truth is that he dosed you up on an acutely toxic dose of a poisonous herb.

Frown upon a shaman that uses little meditation and ceremony and compensates this lack of Spirit Work through use of stronger doses of Plant Teachers. Most shamans you may meet in let's say the Amazon basin will be "tourist shamans", which basically fuck you up on drugs, perhaps even loathe you, but end up taking your money.

A real shaman, and Carlos had that straight, won't be as irresponsible as haze you through a ritual, but rather require you to be with him for quite a while as he teaches you.

As a compensation you won't be charged by the hour but rather have to catch such hints as "my axe has worn down so far that it takes all day to sharpen it nowadays" to mean he would like you to buy him a new axehead next time you're in town. Tribal shamans are most often recluse.

Do not dismiss urban shamans who come in jeans. A parking lot shaman (i'm one) might be just as, or far better suited to further you than a shaman unfamiliar with the 21th century world from which you came and will return.

Witchdoctors in South Africa were given bottles of aspirin in an attempt to through them deliver better health care to the population. Upon return a mere few months later the doctors were displeased to see the witchdoctors crush up aspirin tablets and fashion them with herbs and animal fat into an ointment. But lo and behold: it actually worked and we have transdermal painkiller creams because of the invention of the witchdoctors that some aspirin-type painkillers can pass through the skin for local relief. Witchdoctor wisdom stood at the basis of the OTC painkiller creams used by athletes and arthritis patients alike.
Moral: true shamans are pragmastic instead of completely rigid in their adherance in tradition.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Asante]
    #4658589 - 09/14/05 08:21 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's been proven that "The Teachings of Don Juan" was just an anthropologist selling a fiction novel as truth when Hallucinogens were the hip thing.




I've heard people say that they doubted the truth behind his stories, but it was always presented as an opinion. I would be interested in reading the source that proves this.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: VirgilKane]
    #4658667 - 09/14/05 09:38 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Psychedelic Monographs & Essays vol. 4 has an article called. The breaching of Don Juan's teaching: a 20-year review of Carlos Castaneda?s: The teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui way of knowledge

This wipes the floor with the so-called non-fiction nature of the book. For instance: the Shaman Don Juan bears only superficial resemblance with the Yaqui shamanic practices.
Carlos Castanada did not specifically disclose the Yaqui heritage of Don Juan, which assured the University Press could not verify the validity of his work. But the word Yaqui DID show up on the cover of the book no less the moment it had passed scrutiny by exploiting a loophole in the review system for anthropology publications.
And it goes on and on.

In Pharmacotheon Jonathan Ott, on his turn, wipes the floor with the possibility of the entheogens described being valid and remarks: "Even  Castaneda's own publisher now sells the books, and libraries catalog them as, fiction." which is pretty telltale.

In the books Don Juan says the spirit of Peyotl is Mescalito. However: the name "mescaline" is a misnomer by the scientific community who confused Peyotl with "Mezcal" (an unrelated cactus/beverage) Would a Yaqui shaman be partial to misname a deity based on western scientific literature?
The Yaqui have zero tradition on the use of entheogenic mushrooms  :shocked:
And Jonathan Ott goes on and on with explanations why it just cannot be true.

R Gordon Wasson (who rediscovered Mushroom Ritual traditions and psychedelic mushroom expert) dismissed the books as "science fiction, badly written."

Check the sources, particularly the Pharmacotheon: the books of Carlos Castaneda are perhaps charming, but definately fiction. The pharmacology and botany of the entheogens cannot be right, the "traditions" are not Yaqui, there are numerous instances where Castaneda has been shown to consciously LIE to make it appear the books were genuine...

I ate that first book up as a teen but hey, it's fiction, fiction that can get you KILLED if you try the described Datura recipy.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Asante]
    #4660024 - 09/14/05 03:07 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Wow. I've heard so many people fight against the notion that those books were Fiction. I'm surprised that you're the first that I've ever seen to have data to back this up. I'll definitely read your suggestions when I'm not in such a rush.

Thanks for the info Wiccan Seeker.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: VirgilKane]
    #4660542 - 09/14/05 04:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I myself have been completely taken in too, but several books have made it very clear that it could not have happened.

The article in Psychedelic Monographs & Essays made a very strong point:
Don Juan acts like a Yaqui Pascola (a Divine Clown) rather than a Shaman. And these Divine Clowns excell in... mocking sacred rituals and deceiving people to shape reality in a way which is beside the truth. Carlos Castaneda probably deliberately did this.

His Don Juan is a Pascola mocking to be a Shaman and misleading the protagonist Carlos just like the writer Carlos misleads the reader. As a writer of fiction am thrilled by symbolism play but the thig is he really did the Yaqui a disservice by presenting a parodious character (Don Juan was quite odd in those stories) like he was a real-life Yaqui shaman, which is in at least my eyes a mockery of their true shamanic tradition.

We want it to be true, perhaps, but it's fiction.


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InvisibleShnezbit
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Re: Datura and Castenada [Re: Asante]
    #4660675 - 09/14/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i really enjoyed reading those books. i think they have useful lessons and techniques in them. i wonder if somewhere castaneda tells the truth, like some private letter or something. i really hate 'charlatans' and there are so many in the spiritual paths. too bad castaneda never came clean about this.
still i wonder if he was trained by someone. he really demonstrates a profound understanding of many occult techniques. but that tensegrity crap seemed like just overpriced tai chi.


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