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Invisiblefushock
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8018583 - 02/13/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"Datura is like post-graduate work for psychonauts"




If datura is post grad work of psychonauts, huffing gas is post grad work for mechanical engineers.

Its a cheap, legal, stupid way to fuck your self over. Its not the next step beyond any level. Its out of desperation, ignorance, and lack of foresight.


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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8018633 - 02/13/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This plant doesnt seem like its to enjoyable.

I had a friend who ate two big bell shaped yellow flowers and couldent see anything the day after I guess. I believe they contianed altropine.

By the way the government did experiments during vietnanm with something called BZ. BZ is to altropine as LSD is to LSA. Supposedly it lasts like 90 hours and was tested as a incompasitating agent. Its supposidly extremely active at 500ug(how would you like to get that on your blotter) You can read about it on erowid.

Long story short no thanks


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: awesomebastard]
    #8018693 - 02/13/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've read about BZ. Interesting things tend to crop up in relation to that, such as folie a deux and so-called "shared hallucinations," ranging from two deleriant-inebriated soldiers playing tennis with imaginary rackets to subjects passing invisible cigarettes to each other out of a non-existent pack. When a hallucination seems to be apparent to more than one person, is it still a hallucination?

Methinks this tends to blur the line of what is reality and what isn't, just a little bit. Extended to a more general scenario, mass hysteria is clinically defined as a delusion that is shared amongst many people. At that point, (philosophically speaking) is it still a delusion?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblet00th
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8018759 - 02/13/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

personally, i have no desire to do it. to be honest, i dont think i could handle it. i dont even high dose mushies. so it's not for me.

but i do have a lot of respect for you and what your doing. keep it up, and let us know the results of anything you might find out.


--------------------
:partykid:


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Registered: 08/18/04
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: t00th]
    #8018883 - 02/13/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ayahuasca isnt really enjoyable when using it under the same context it works in a differnt way


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8019411 - 02/13/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thedudenj said:
ayahuasca isnt really enjoyable when using it under the same context it works in a differnt way



true but i think this is a little lower on the spiritaul spectrum for most people.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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Offlinemescalinaz
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
    #8022780 - 02/14/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fushock said:
Its a cheap, legal, stupid way to fuck your self over. Its not the next step beyond any level. Its out of desperation, ignorance, and lack of foresight.




LOL so is booz and i bet you go waste yourself from time to time... and going after your reasoning its because you had really fucked up childhood... go get a grip mate


after my overdose i couldnt see for two days and i've learned my lesson. but i didnt loose interest in it... maybe because there was so much more in it than just having completely blurred vision for 3 days. maybe all these people who tried them and had negative reception simply marked the experience as a negative sub-reality... and if you create your reality through 5 senses for all your life with emotional imprints on it and out of a blue you get hit heavily on one or some of these sensory stimulus... what do you think your emotional imprint is going to be... will you be able to notice if there is something more to experience or will you be caught up in "what's up with my senses? is it real?" kind of mode?
as for me there is potential in the plant and as few of the others im willing to explore it the proper way as i mentioned it before.


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.


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InvisibleDoomhammer
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8308174 - 04/20/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
My question, however, is assuming that there is in fact a spiritual lesson of the same manner that traditional psychedelics give embodied in Datura (for ex. the philosophy of letting it be or the view that all is one), then what is it? It's clearly a harsh lesson (as evidenced by the thousands of Datura casualties ending up in three-day hospital stays), but it seems there are some who "get it." But what lesson is this that your immensely powerful subconscious is trying to get across to you?




I think you should ask this question within a lucid dream first maybe you will get the answer.
Shamans say datura brings them to other planes of reality right? I'm thinking of the book "The Teachings of Don Juan" by Carlos Casteneda. Good book. Some believe it helps them see other places and times and otherwise understand impossible things.

But they spend years with other things before going to this. I wouldn't even think of Datura unless I somehow gained serious shamanistic training. Lucid dreams seem to offer a lot more for a lot less at the given moment.

I would use it as an antidote to nerve gas though. I read nerve gas forces muscle constraint while datura just about stops your ability to flex your muscles. Or so I've heard. Engages the parasympathetic system.

Interestingly, I've sometimes felt paralyzed in some very vivid dreams.


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Doomhammer]
    #8308196 - 04/20/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

datura can do alot of things you can enter others dreams


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8308842 - 04/20/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I heard datura was used by shamans for the deepest levels of spiritual travel. But even they accepted that sometimes you die attempting it. I would have to have deep religious reasons to risk dieing or being seriously injured. I believe it can do damage to your brain. Anything which can kill you can also cause permanent damage.


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8308906 - 04/20/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

But even they accepted that sometimes you die attempting it... there not a good healer then


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8308921 - 04/20/08 09:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think they gave it to others for healing. I think it was for their own spiritual travels. Just like today, sometimes they died or came back messed up. Its an unpredictable chemical.


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8308933 - 04/20/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

not really its pretty predicable when you know how to use it


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8308954 - 04/20/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I thought the dose where you trip and the dose where you OD are very close to each other.


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8308978 - 04/20/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

lol I think that more so depends on the trip for starts and B theres things you can combined it with that will make it way less deadly.

first time i had it i was blacked out all night but my body got around fine and did intricate things with no problem and it also drank alot of captain Morgan which i didnt get hung over from. but i used it with a druid it was his first time using it too but using our magic or what ever you want to call it we both got thru it fine and learned alot about controling energy flows and healing.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8310027 - 04/21/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I've developed a theory over Datura usage during my research and usage of this entheogen... methinks that the people who claim it's deadly, dangerous, and can drive you insane are very correct--and this is also intended. Only those who have nothing left to lose, are truly brave/foolhardy, or who believe in nothing end up using this plant. And this is what gives her so much power: for in giving up everything to risk madness or death, you show your ultimate commitment to experiencing reality in all its dark and hidden manifestations... and in return, the benefits are boundless. Walking the astral planes via a Datura lucid dream is the pinnacle of the dreamtime shaman's power, and by being able to manifest your own gods into reality, you have achieved what few others are willing or unafraid enough to do. Like the most dangerous of tools, Datura can easily scour your mind of its brilliance and drive you crazy with visions of eldritch beasties from your deepest nightmares if you still are afraid of losing everything. However, just like all tools, if you have the metaphorical balls, there is infinite power to be seized from this entheogen.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineTheHauntingSoul
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8310097 - 04/21/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

i absolutely cannot believe that out of an entire community of psychonauts, only a few can see the potential benefit of Datura.

I would like to cite one specific drug - SALVIA

almost everyone i know who has tried it has had horrible experiences, shit i have a nightmarish trip just about every time i try it but i still try it from time to time... its interesting and so long as you make sure you dose carefully and have a trip sitter nearby i can't imagine it would be any worse except for the duration.

That being said i havent ever tried Datura, but if i did it would be a loooong way down the road, like after i at least try DMT


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
    #8310130 - 04/21/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

LOL... interesting comparison. I would argue that if you're having a nightmarish trip on Salvia, then you just need to take less of a dosage. By and far the reason most people hate Salvia is because they empty the entire 40x dosage into a bowl and rip three massive tokes on it, thereby painfully shattering whatever conception they had of reality before. Start slow and with a moderate dosage... that way Lady Salvia and you can become friends (if not fuck-buddies :P).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineTheHauntingSoul
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8310135 - 04/21/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

i've tried and i've found that lower doseages are actually more unpleasant for me save for one time when i hit nitrous the entire time.

its just a generally unpleasant buzz for me but its still a fascinating drug because it can do some insane things


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Invisiblefushock
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8310429 - 04/21/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I have no doubts that some risks are necessary in exploring ones own mind. So, ignore the risks(which are very numerous), lets look at the experience from a psychonaut centric perspective of learning about ones mind:

1. People who use Datura cannot remember large portions of the experience. What happens during these gaps in time? Does it matter if you cannot remember it? How can you learn about yourself if you don't remember anything?

2. It is a Deliriant. Deliriants have been said to have an effect like the opposite of lucid dreaming. Instead of waking up inside your mind, you walk around in a dream. Like sleep walking. I used to sleep walk. I didn't learn anything about myself from sleep walking.

3. The effect has been likened to being inside a dream. Wouldn't normal dreaming be a safer alternative without all the numerous risks?

4. I have read a lot of 'trip reports' about the use of Datura. It seems that in everyone that I read, the subject learned nothing about themselves exempt for "Ill never do it again".

I do not, of course, speak for the 'psychonaut' point of view. But this all seems very obvious too me. Its still my opinion that people simply use it as a 'legal high' and end up fucking themselves over worse than they could imagine. Without any benefits except having a first had experience of one of the many strange weapons in mother earth's arsenal.


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