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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
    #8310499 - 04/21/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I'd venture a hypothesis that the Datura-users who end up not remembering large portions of the experience were using too much of the active compound. There's some intriguing theories on how Datura and other anticholinergics blend the line between waking life and sleep, and it seems one of acetylcholine's functions is in encoding memories in the hippocampus. This is how every night you have four to six dreams, but you end up not remembering them all in the morning. Low doses of anticholinergics and Datura, based on my own experimentation and other trip reports, have proved be enormously beneficial in lucid dreaming. It seems you have to hit a perfect sweet spot with these compounds... too little and no effect, too much and you'll go so far under that the memories you obtain won't be able to get encoded back into the hippocampus.

Similarly, I would say that if you're fully submerged in the dream of the Datura experience, you've taken too much. To be able to use this tool, you must be able to absolutely MASTER lucid dreaming... for getting sucked into a dream without free will compounded by the fact that your imagination becomes reality can become your worst nightmare in a matter of seconds. Thus, I would similarly say to your second point that the people who sleep walk with no control of their actions have taken far too much Datura.

And, yeah, sure normal dreaming, or better yet normal lucid dreaming is safer. But, again, you're gonna be trading in unimaginable power for security and comfort. The traditional motif found in entheogenic usage of Datura trip reports is that of being able to call up your dead ancestors and converse, or be able to walk the astral planes and shape-shift. Sadly, normal lucid dreams cannot be obtained wholly consistently, and usually portray the more mundane activities such as flying or sex as opposed to the more witchcraft and power-oriented Datura themes.

Finally, there are a hell of a lot of bad trip reports with Datura. You'll find, also, that the vast majority of these demonstrate the taking of at least a couple seedpods, which contains a MASSIVE overdose of Datura. Waking up three days with absolutely no recollection of where one's been is clear indication of having luckily survived this hammer-blow to your cholinergic system. Worse yet are the people who undershoot the dose for complete memory failure, and end up witnessing AND remembering their worst fears and nightmares coming to life because they are afraid of letting go. In a world where anything you visualize can become just as real to you as anything else, you must either fear nothing or not care about anything. Datura demands a certain sort of metaphysical nihilism, in other words.

I would venture to offer you to look at the following trip reports to show a different side of this dark temptress. Raises a lot of thought-provoking questions, IMO.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16973
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=8711
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=35752

and http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=48411 which references Belladonna, but since they're both anticholinergics the main theme is the same.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineNineStorms
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Registered: 02/28/07
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
    #8310568 - 04/21/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I've never tried datura (although we have some brugmansia outside our garage), but in the Way of the Shaman by Michael Warner, he describes in the beginning of the book his experience with datura with a South American shaman. Now I'm not sure exactly how valid Michael Warner's writings are, but he seems to know his stuff. One of the things he describes is being tied down, with the shaman and his helper watching over him and occasionally holding him down during the trip.

In the Serpent and the Rainbow, some anthropologist took a bufotenine concoction prepared for him by a medicine man: he too was laid down in a specially prepared pit. There's also a description of a medicine man who takes a concoction of datura (either him or his patient, I'm not clear on that), and is sequestered in a small hut. In whatever references I've read, datura (and powerful deleriants in general) is taken only with safeguards, and only with the greatest of caution. Considering in most cases the subject is immobilized or placed in a location where he cannot wander, I'd think a similar preparation would be wise if undergoing a datura ritual. Myself, I ain't gonna explore that stuff until it calls to me... in several years, or maybe never. We'll see.

As far as possible brain damage, I think administration of those nootropics you mentioned (which I know nothing about), or mushroom trips could be helpful in minimizing damage. I personally believe one can use psychadelic trips to repair neuronal damage, so doing so afterwards might be a good way to counteract any negative effects. But what do I know? ^_^

Edit: Hah, looks like you've already got a good handle on this... hope this post isn't superfluous then.


Edited by NineStorms (04/21/08 01:17 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8310593 - 04/21/08 01:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Although a highly cautious attitude is probably a good idea, you seem to have a respectful and responsible attitude and so I think you are exactly the kind of person to be persuing a relationship with this plant. I would like to hear as much as possible about your experiments and experiences if you choose to follow this through.


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Invisiblefushock
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8311070 - 04/21/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'd venture a hypothesis that the Datura-users who end up not remembering large portions of the experience were using too much of the active compound. There's some intriguing theories on how Datura and other anticholinergics blend the line between waking life and sleep, and it seems one of acetylcholine's functions is in encoding memories in the hippocampus. This is how every night you have four to six dreams, but you end up not remembering them all in the morning. Low doses of anticholinergics and Datura, based on my own experimentation and other trip reports, have proved be enormously beneficial in lucid dreaming. It seems you have to hit a perfect sweet spot with these compounds... too little and no effect, too much and you'll go so far under that the memories you obtain won't be able to get encoded back into the hippocampus.




No doubt a lot of the bad effects of Datura are dose dependent. But when you are dealing with an unrefined product that has a potential of varying wildly. And the margin of threshold experience and overdosing is very small; these types of experiences will be the norm.

I have mixed thoughts on your statement that it helps with lucid dreaming. On one hand, I can almost see how getting in the habit of questioning consciousness could help becoming lucid during normal dreaming. But I can also see this blurring of the line making it harder to tell dreams from reality.

At any rate, the "blurring of the line" effect can be reproduced with sleep deprivation. Not that sleep deprivation is something I would suggest. But it seems preferable to Datura.

I fail to see how lucid dreaming is less unimaginably powerful to a Datura trip. And even above that, I fail to see psychonaut's attraction to lucid dreaming as a learning tool. In my opinion, it doesn't help people learn about themselves in comparison to normal dreaming. Normal dreaming shows the mechanics of the mind. Lucid dreams are simply cool.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
    #8311115 - 04/21/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Sleep deprivation has some very interesting similar effects to that of deliriants... perhaps because in suffering withdrawal from REM sleep, the brain is forced to essentially start "dreaming" while still in waking life, manifesting threshold effects of crossing this boundary. The tell-tale first signs of deliriant intoxication are usually that of objects starting to shake and small black specks flying around becoming noticeable--this usually parallels the hallucinations that start happening after three or four days worth of sleep. However, with respect to using this means vs. Datura, I would highly recommend not to. Lack of sleep has been shown to cause weakening of the immune system and eventual death, and not to mention the slight hallucinations that show up under sleep deprivation seldom if ever appear to approach full scale anticholinergia.

The difference between regular lucid dreaming and Datura dreaming has intrigued me, too. Most positive Datura reports talk of an elusive female presence (the proverbial Lady Datura temptress), and the ability to call up anyone you ever knew or spoke to in order to have a full conversation with them or ask their advice. This corresponds to the supposedly traditional usage of Datura within a shamanistic context of using the plant to talk to one's ancestors and ask them for their wisdom. I've seldom heard of these occurring with regular dreams, although they might with a much smaller frequency.

As for learning something... I agree with you that normal dreams give you an insight into your subconscious. Lucid dreaming is more for people who seek power than those who seek knowledge, IMO.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
    #8314135 - 04/22/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

i deffinatly dont suggest other people start using at all. i agree it has a blurring and blurry effect in general i think it shoul mainly be used in conjunction with things like ayahuasca


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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