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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage?
#8009685 - 02/11/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hello to all you Shroomers... This is my first post after being a professional lurker for quite sometime.
I've been intrigued about Datura ever since I encountered experiences of complete and utter delerium--ranging from talking to people who weren't there and the warping of everything that was once real to seeing visions of horrific madness and destruction.
I'm aware that the potential for overdose is extremely high... in fact, what might be considered a "trip" on Datura might even more accurately be described as delusional hallucinations occurring while being poisoned by an anticholinergic. However, I'm more concerned about the potential negative effects upon cognition and general intelligence than the possibility for an overdose (which can be avoided by starting at a low quantity of seeds and gradually working up to the desired level).
From my readings, it seems like no-one has given much thought to the longterm effects of Datura usage. It seems to me that anything that blocks the effects of acetylcholine in such a manifest way could be doing permanent damage to your cholinergic system... a system that deals with memory, cognition, logic, and essentially what "makes" you intelligent. Considering that such nootropic drugs such as choline and lecithin raise one's levels of acetylcholine (providing more efficient transmission of signals in the brain and thereby subjectively raising one's ability to think lucidly), is it possible that Datura usage could provide the opposite effect?
From anecdotal evidence based on Erowid and other forums, a portion of users report having, among other things, permanent problems with stuttering that had not occurred before usage, feelings of decreased intelligence, and from reports about FOAFs, seemingly permanent schizophrenia and/or odd behavior patterns indicative of brain damage. Another interesting argument to consider is that one of the principal effects of Datura is to invoke a state of frank delirium... a state that statistically speaking does in fact increase the chances of inducing dementia later on in life (perhaps a sign that Datura usage gives a hammer-blow to the cholinergic system, making it more vulnerable and weakened).
Other interesting patterns can be noticed from diphenhydramine and dramamine trip reports; both of which are potent anticholinergics (although not quite as potent as the mother of them all, Datura.) The occasional trip report mentions difficulty forming sentences and inability to put clear thoughts together, lasting up till months after the experience. Now supposedly, anticholinergic poisoning can be completely reversible by administration of physostigmine--meaning that the agent competitively inhibiting the acetylcholine receptor disappears. This does NOT mean, however, that rampant use of these anticholinergic drugs will not damage one's acetylcholine receptors enough to noticeably decrease cognition and intelligence.
Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill here, or is there in fact reason to believe that Datura or other anticholinergic drugs does in fact have the possibility to cause brain damage? Now, I'm not counting the very apparent brain damage that can result from fevers or excess body heat generated by the Datura's other anticholinergic symptoms... this can be avoided by simple precautions. I am worried about the far more subtle and (I believe) unpreventable brain damage that could result from impairment of the cholinergic system. I have not been able to find any articles or scientific research backing this up (probably because testing for minor decreases in general intelligence or cognition after Datura usage is not a highly interesting topic to the scientific community :P), asides from a few studies that point out that excessive usage of diphenhydramine in the elderly can in fact trigger dementia and progressive decline.
Your thoughts?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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fushock

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8010017 - 02/11/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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From what I've heard, if you want to do Datura you probably already have brain damage.
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azurite
4got10horse


Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 173
Loc: oregon coast range
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8010467 - 02/11/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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datura is fucked up. i would never ingest it. i grow it though mixed in with my corn to deter symphylans. i get light headed just smelling the flowers. these huge hummingbird moths come to them in the night. they are so cool to see. i think you are on to something but i don't know for sure. i have always been more worried about liver failure.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: azurite]
#8011034 - 02/11/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just don't do datura.
I've never done it, but I've never heard anything good about it.
Why would you willingly ingest a substance that will create a waking nightmare?
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Entropymancer


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8011091 - 02/11/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think that chronic use is enough of an issue to be concerned about long-term repercussions.
Just doing it once isn't apt to cause much damage expect possibly via fever (your brain isn't supposed to get that hot), and I doubt you'll ever do it again.
Why worry about it?
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8011110 - 02/11/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, are you considering doing it?
cause...don't.
"there are demons in the below mind." -Roland the Gunslinger
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: g00ru]
#8011330 - 02/11/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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ugh if i didnt have stuff to do tomorrow i would take some will tho put some in my next brew tho i agree there should be much concern, tho i dont think it really causes horrible brain damage cant say for sure tho. i never had any issuses and still do wonderful on the EEG
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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hpi
Tsar Bomba




Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 11,922
Loc: Montreal, Canada
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8011343 - 02/11/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Datura and brugmansia ( datura on a tree ) are really amazing and fascinating drugs.
I don't know why so many people are against it and say don't do it and all that.
So it's very toxic and dangerous but how many members shoot smack into there veins everyday and such? Id rather have an amazing Brugmansia trip.
-------------------- Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam! Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam! There exists one lie that is the absolute worst. A lie that has successfully infiltrated many of the Western governments. This lie is Christianity, and it must be fought in every way, shape and form. Burn the churches and kill the priests. The abomination that is Christianity must be wiped from this Earth.
4-Methyl-Aminorex
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: hpi]
#8011350 - 02/11/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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lol
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8012776 - 02/12/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just some idle speculation: what if Datura-induced delerium was merely the projection of the user's dreams into waking life?. Some have hypothesized that acetylcholine, which these anticholinergic deliriants appear to affect, controls the boundaries between our waking and our dreaming lives... a surge of it ushers in sleep and its levels lessen during the day.
So, (and here comes the speculative part), would trying to control a Datura trip be similar to attempting to lucid dream? As an ordinary dreamer, I've gotten uncontrollably swept-away by nightmares and helplessly pinned to whatever figment of a plot my addled brain's cooked up--just exactly the same way that most Datura users find themselves in an uncontrollable, nightmarish trip for 3 days. So what if a person well-versed in lucid dreaming (more specifically, the WILD technique) were to try out Datura? My hypothesis is that this person might actually be able "harness" the power of delerium to unlock the hidden secrets of Datura... lucid dreaming while awake could quite literally transport one to a completely different universe for the duration of the trip.
The WILD technique would, I'm guessing, be one of the few ways to attempt to master this tropane alkaloid, as it involved going directly from waking to sleeping while maintaining a continuous line of consciousness--rather like attempting to maintain lucidity while the Datura alkaloids slowly seep into effect. Perhaps this was the secret of the bizarro shaman... the gatekeepers into the world of insanity could have been merely the logical extension of the lucid dreamer into the real world.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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FarFromHere
~Teotzlcoatl~



Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 926
Loc: The 7th Plane
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8013157 - 02/12/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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-------------------- "We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8013196 - 02/12/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fushock said: From what I've heard, if you want to do Datura you probably already have brain damage.
that was what i was gonna say.
from what i've read i feel that datura uses it's chemicals for protection. puts you into a delirium & physical discomfort so the consumer would leave the plant the hell alone.
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KrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Bridgeburner]
#8013295 - 02/12/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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so do psilocybin and aminita mushrooms. stop doing mushrooms?
The Cypher: thumbs up
-------------------- Everybody's a ninja...
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Taharka
The Root of the Problem

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8013350 - 02/12/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Diphenhydramine has taught me that anticholinergia can be a beautiful thing.
I haven't found any damnatory reports about long-term diphenhydramine use. Check PubMed - some people are on the stuff for years - and when I asked my doctor about the dangers of long-term diphenhydramine use, he couldn't think of anything.
If you use Datura once or thrice in your life, you're probably not killing anything you would have otherwise missed. Unless you die.
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FarFromHere
~Teotzlcoatl~



Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 926
Loc: The 7th Plane
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Taharka]
#8014367 - 02/12/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you must use one of the Baneful herbs- Datura, Brugmanisa, Belladonna, Henbane, Mandrake, etc.
Please smoke brugmansia, It seems to be the safest.
-------------------- "We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb
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hpi
Tsar Bomba




Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 11,922
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: FarFromHere]
#8014925 - 02/12/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Brugmansia is just Datura on a tree.
I posted pics of my plant here once I think.
-------------------- Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam! Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam! There exists one lie that is the absolute worst. A lie that has successfully infiltrated many of the Western governments. This lie is Christianity, and it must be fought in every way, shape and form. Burn the churches and kill the priests. The abomination that is Christianity must be wiped from this Earth.
4-Methyl-Aminorex
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Taharka]
#8017059 - 02/13/08 10:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Would you care to elaborate on how diphenhydramine taught you the beauty of anticholinergia?
As for myself, I have no idea why I'm so strangely fascinated by the power of these plants. There's just something compelling about being able to walk the depths of Morpheus' realm, where reason and any semblance of coherent control die a sloppy death to the ancient, primeval dream-logic issuing from semi-random firings centered in the brainstem. Our deepest fears, our deepest wants, and every single bit of repressed subconscious emotion that lurks in the muddy waters of our reptilian brain are there for the taking--if one is brave enough to make the plunge into the world of the tropane alkaloids. Sure, if one is unready or foolish (as I would estimate the vast majority of wanna-be Datura users are), the yawning chasm of anticholinergia would open to a three day nightmare in front of your eyes, but the examples of South American shamans who add a pinch of brugmansia or another tropane to their ayahuasca brew shows that there are, at least, a few brave souls willing to subject themselves to the possibility of utter madness.
To stir up some evidence for my hypothesis that proficient lucid dreamers might be able to walk the Datura plane more competently, let me inquire to the Shroomery at large: has anyone skilled in the WILD technique or any consistent lucid dreaming method attempted Datura? If so, was it still possible to remain lucid throughout the duration of the trip, or was this anticholinergic hammer still too powerful?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: hpi]
#8017188 - 02/13/08 11:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
hpi said: Brugmansia is just Datura on a tree.
I posted pics of my plant here once I think.
no it has differnt alakloid levels like how differnt genus of psilo containing mushrooms
--------------------
  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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mescalinaz
TheCapitator

Registered: 12/14/07
Posts: 117
Loc: NorthWeastFromTheEast
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8017561 - 02/13/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i smoke some dried flowers from time to time... makes me feel really good... i will probably never eat any seeds again as i did it once and simply overdosed which was horrific trip from one side but from the other quite interesting experience into realms of my mind... i am going to try for sure belladonna's roots by starting small and building it up to expected results as it's the roots that tend to have the most stable alkaloid content out of the entire plant. what can i say guess its not for everybody same like its with the case of psychedelics. but peepz who claim it's fucked up just because somebody else didnt know how to dose it as well as themselves have never tried it's kind of hypocrisy here. it's the same like saying "i dont need to touch the fire to know it's hot". so how the hell do you know its hot then?? coz somebody else told you? i dont think so... looks like im here on defending side as i enjoy the way i do datura.
-------------------- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: mescalinaz]
#8018380 - 02/13/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I concur... I liked a quote I read somewhere that said "Datura is like post-graduate work for psychonauts" -- and I agree. It's strange that the online drug community has been moved more to shun all talk of dosage and method for anticholinergics in an effort to prevent naive 14-year olds from chasing down ten Stramonium seed-pods and dying, when in the process valuable information about these pharmacological factors is getting lost. Just because a topic is highly dangerous and should not be pursued without massive care and study, does not mean we should prevent free speech in the name of safety.
It is interesting to note, incidentally, that there are a few (scanty at best) reports on Erowid where the Datura user did spiritually grow from the experience. There seems to be a vague mention of a mysterious, yet extremely powerful female presence that pervades this plant. I could compare to Castaneda when he comments that "she is as powerful as the best of allies ... [but] she gives them a taste of power too soon without fortifying their hearts and makes them domineering and unpredictable," but as his source-referencing is shoddy as best I will merely make reference to actual trip reports.
My question, however, is assuming that there is in fact a spiritual lesson of the same manner that traditional psychedelics give embodied in Datura (for ex. the philosophy of letting it be or the view that all is one), then what is it? It's clearly a harsh lesson (as evidenced by the thousands of Datura casualties ending up in three-day hospital stays), but it seems there are some who "get it." But what lesson is this that your immensely powerful subconscious is trying to get across to you?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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fushock

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8018583 - 02/13/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Datura is like post-graduate work for psychonauts"
If datura is post grad work of psychonauts, huffing gas is post grad work for mechanical engineers.
Its a cheap, legal, stupid way to fuck your self over. Its not the next step beyond any level. Its out of desperation, ignorance, and lack of foresight.
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awesomebastard
Lost



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8018633 - 02/13/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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This plant doesnt seem like its to enjoyable.
I had a friend who ate two big bell shaped yellow flowers and couldent see anything the day after I guess. I believe they contianed altropine.
By the way the government did experiments during vietnanm with something called BZ. BZ is to altropine as LSD is to LSA. Supposedly it lasts like 90 hours and was tested as a incompasitating agent. Its supposidly extremely active at 500ug(how would you like to get that on your blotter) You can read about it on erowid.
Long story short no thanks
--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: awesomebastard]
#8018693 - 02/13/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've read about BZ. Interesting things tend to crop up in relation to that, such as folie a deux and so-called "shared hallucinations," ranging from two deleriant-inebriated soldiers playing tennis with imaginary rackets to subjects passing invisible cigarettes to each other out of a non-existent pack. When a hallucination seems to be apparent to more than one person, is it still a hallucination?
Methinks this tends to blur the line of what is reality and what isn't, just a little bit. Extended to a more general scenario, mass hysteria is clinically defined as a delusion that is shared amongst many people. At that point, (philosophically speaking) is it still a delusion?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8018759 - 02/13/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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personally, i have no desire to do it. to be honest, i dont think i could handle it. i dont even high dose mushies. so it's not for me.
but i do have a lot of respect for you and what your doing. keep it up, and let us know the results of anything you might find out.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: t00th]
#8018883 - 02/13/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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ayahuasca isnt really enjoyable when using it under the same context it works in a differnt way
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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awesomebastard
Lost



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8019411 - 02/13/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
thedudenj said: ayahuasca isnt really enjoyable when using it under the same context it works in a differnt way
true but i think this is a little lower on the spiritaul spectrum for most people.
--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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mescalinaz
TheCapitator

Registered: 12/14/07
Posts: 117
Loc: NorthWeastFromTheEast
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8022780 - 02/14/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fushock said: Its a cheap, legal, stupid way to fuck your self over. Its not the next step beyond any level. Its out of desperation, ignorance, and lack of foresight.
LOL so is booz and i bet you go waste yourself from time to time... and going after your reasoning its because you had really fucked up childhood... go get a grip mate
after my overdose i couldnt see for two days and i've learned my lesson. but i didnt loose interest in it... maybe because there was so much more in it than just having completely blurred vision for 3 days. maybe all these people who tried them and had negative reception simply marked the experience as a negative sub-reality... and if you create your reality through 5 senses for all your life with emotional imprints on it and out of a blue you get hit heavily on one or some of these sensory stimulus... what do you think your emotional imprint is going to be... will you be able to notice if there is something more to experience or will you be caught up in "what's up with my senses? is it real?" kind of mode? as for me there is potential in the plant and as few of the others im willing to explore it the proper way as i mentioned it before.
-------------------- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Doomhammer
EmancipateYourselves fromMental Slavery


Registered: 05/01/00
Posts: 100
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8308174 - 04/20/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: My question, however, is assuming that there is in fact a spiritual lesson of the same manner that traditional psychedelics give embodied in Datura (for ex. the philosophy of letting it be or the view that all is one), then what is it? It's clearly a harsh lesson (as evidenced by the thousands of Datura casualties ending up in three-day hospital stays), but it seems there are some who "get it." But what lesson is this that your immensely powerful subconscious is trying to get across to you?
I think you should ask this question within a lucid dream first maybe you will get the answer. Shamans say datura brings them to other planes of reality right? I'm thinking of the book "The Teachings of Don Juan" by Carlos Casteneda. Good book. Some believe it helps them see other places and times and otherwise understand impossible things.
But they spend years with other things before going to this. I wouldn't even think of Datura unless I somehow gained serious shamanistic training. Lucid dreams seem to offer a lot more for a lot less at the given moment.
I would use it as an antidote to nerve gas though. I read nerve gas forces muscle constraint while datura just about stops your ability to flex your muscles. Or so I've heard. Engages the parasympathetic system.
Interestingly, I've sometimes felt paralyzed in some very vivid dreams.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Doomhammer]
#8308196 - 04/20/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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datura can do alot of things you can enter others dreams
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8308842 - 04/20/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I heard datura was used by shamans for the deepest levels of spiritual travel. But even they accepted that sometimes you die attempting it. I would have to have deep religious reasons to risk dieing or being seriously injured. I believe it can do damage to your brain. Anything which can kill you can also cause permanent damage.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
#8308906 - 04/20/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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But even they accepted that sometimes you die attempting it... there not a good healer then
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8308921 - 04/20/08 09:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think they gave it to others for healing. I think it was for their own spiritual travels. Just like today, sometimes they died or came back messed up. Its an unpredictable chemical.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
#8308933 - 04/20/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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not really its pretty predicable when you know how to use it
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8308954 - 04/20/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I thought the dose where you trip and the dose where you OD are very close to each other.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: DimensionX]
#8308978 - 04/20/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol I think that more so depends on the trip for starts and B theres things you can combined it with that will make it way less deadly.
first time i had it i was blacked out all night but my body got around fine and did intricate things with no problem and it also drank alot of captain Morgan which i didnt get hung over from. but i used it with a druid it was his first time using it too but using our magic or what ever you want to call it we both got thru it fine and learned alot about controling energy flows and healing.
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8310027 - 04/21/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've developed a theory over Datura usage during my research and usage of this entheogen... methinks that the people who claim it's deadly, dangerous, and can drive you insane are very correct--and this is also intended. Only those who have nothing left to lose, are truly brave/foolhardy, or who believe in nothing end up using this plant. And this is what gives her so much power: for in giving up everything to risk madness or death, you show your ultimate commitment to experiencing reality in all its dark and hidden manifestations... and in return, the benefits are boundless. Walking the astral planes via a Datura lucid dream is the pinnacle of the dreamtime shaman's power, and by being able to manifest your own gods into reality, you have achieved what few others are willing or unafraid enough to do. Like the most dangerous of tools, Datura can easily scour your mind of its brilliance and drive you crazy with visions of eldritch beasties from your deepest nightmares if you still are afraid of losing everything. However, just like all tools, if you have the metaphorical balls, there is infinite power to be seized from this entheogen.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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TheHauntingSoul
Not really that cool



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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8310097 - 04/21/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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i absolutely cannot believe that out of an entire community of psychonauts, only a few can see the potential benefit of Datura.
I would like to cite one specific drug - SALVIA
almost everyone i know who has tried it has had horrible experiences, shit i have a nightmarish trip just about every time i try it but i still try it from time to time... its interesting and so long as you make sure you dose carefully and have a trip sitter nearby i can't imagine it would be any worse except for the duration.
That being said i havent ever tried Datura, but if i did it would be a loooong way down the road, like after i at least try DMT
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: TheHauntingSoul]
#8310130 - 04/21/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOL... interesting comparison. I would argue that if you're having a nightmarish trip on Salvia, then you just need to take less of a dosage. By and far the reason most people hate Salvia is because they empty the entire 40x dosage into a bowl and rip three massive tokes on it, thereby painfully shattering whatever conception they had of reality before. Start slow and with a moderate dosage... that way Lady Salvia and you can become friends (if not fuck-buddies :P).
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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TheHauntingSoul
Not really that cool



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 810
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8310135 - 04/21/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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i've tried and i've found that lower doseages are actually more unpleasant for me save for one time when i hit nitrous the entire time.
its just a generally unpleasant buzz for me but its still a fascinating drug because it can do some insane things
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fushock

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8310429 - 04/21/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have no doubts that some risks are necessary in exploring ones own mind. So, ignore the risks(which are very numerous), lets look at the experience from a psychonaut centric perspective of learning about ones mind:
1. People who use Datura cannot remember large portions of the experience. What happens during these gaps in time? Does it matter if you cannot remember it? How can you learn about yourself if you don't remember anything?
2. It is a Deliriant. Deliriants have been said to have an effect like the opposite of lucid dreaming. Instead of waking up inside your mind, you walk around in a dream. Like sleep walking. I used to sleep walk. I didn't learn anything about myself from sleep walking.
3. The effect has been likened to being inside a dream. Wouldn't normal dreaming be a safer alternative without all the numerous risks?
4. I have read a lot of 'trip reports' about the use of Datura. It seems that in everyone that I read, the subject learned nothing about themselves exempt for "Ill never do it again".
I do not, of course, speak for the 'psychonaut' point of view. But this all seems very obvious too me. Its still my opinion that people simply use it as a 'legal high' and end up fucking themselves over worse than they could imagine. Without any benefits except having a first had experience of one of the many strange weapons in mother earth's arsenal.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8310499 - 04/21/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd venture a hypothesis that the Datura-users who end up not remembering large portions of the experience were using too much of the active compound. There's some intriguing theories on how Datura and other anticholinergics blend the line between waking life and sleep, and it seems one of acetylcholine's functions is in encoding memories in the hippocampus. This is how every night you have four to six dreams, but you end up not remembering them all in the morning. Low doses of anticholinergics and Datura, based on my own experimentation and other trip reports, have proved be enormously beneficial in lucid dreaming. It seems you have to hit a perfect sweet spot with these compounds... too little and no effect, too much and you'll go so far under that the memories you obtain won't be able to get encoded back into the hippocampus.
Similarly, I would say that if you're fully submerged in the dream of the Datura experience, you've taken too much. To be able to use this tool, you must be able to absolutely MASTER lucid dreaming... for getting sucked into a dream without free will compounded by the fact that your imagination becomes reality can become your worst nightmare in a matter of seconds. Thus, I would similarly say to your second point that the people who sleep walk with no control of their actions have taken far too much Datura.
And, yeah, sure normal dreaming, or better yet normal lucid dreaming is safer. But, again, you're gonna be trading in unimaginable power for security and comfort. The traditional motif found in entheogenic usage of Datura trip reports is that of being able to call up your dead ancestors and converse, or be able to walk the astral planes and shape-shift. Sadly, normal lucid dreams cannot be obtained wholly consistently, and usually portray the more mundane activities such as flying or sex as opposed to the more witchcraft and power-oriented Datura themes.
Finally, there are a hell of a lot of bad trip reports with Datura. You'll find, also, that the vast majority of these demonstrate the taking of at least a couple seedpods, which contains a MASSIVE overdose of Datura. Waking up three days with absolutely no recollection of where one's been is clear indication of having luckily survived this hammer-blow to your cholinergic system. Worse yet are the people who undershoot the dose for complete memory failure, and end up witnessing AND remembering their worst fears and nightmares coming to life because they are afraid of letting go. In a world where anything you visualize can become just as real to you as anything else, you must either fear nothing or not care about anything. Datura demands a certain sort of metaphysical nihilism, in other words.
I would venture to offer you to look at the following trip reports to show a different side of this dark temptress. Raises a lot of thought-provoking questions, IMO.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16973 http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=8711 http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=35752
and http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=48411 which references Belladonna, but since they're both anticholinergics the main theme is the same.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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NineStorms
The Dragon



Registered: 02/28/07
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8310568 - 04/21/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've never tried datura (although we have some brugmansia outside our garage), but in the Way of the Shaman by Michael Warner, he describes in the beginning of the book his experience with datura with a South American shaman. Now I'm not sure exactly how valid Michael Warner's writings are, but he seems to know his stuff. One of the things he describes is being tied down, with the shaman and his helper watching over him and occasionally holding him down during the trip.
In the Serpent and the Rainbow, some anthropologist took a bufotenine concoction prepared for him by a medicine man: he too was laid down in a specially prepared pit. There's also a description of a medicine man who takes a concoction of datura (either him or his patient, I'm not clear on that), and is sequestered in a small hut. In whatever references I've read, datura (and powerful deleriants in general) is taken only with safeguards, and only with the greatest of caution. Considering in most cases the subject is immobilized or placed in a location where he cannot wander, I'd think a similar preparation would be wise if undergoing a datura ritual. Myself, I ain't gonna explore that stuff until it calls to me... in several years, or maybe never. We'll see.
As far as possible brain damage, I think administration of those nootropics you mentioned (which I know nothing about), or mushroom trips could be helpful in minimizing damage. I personally believe one can use psychadelic trips to repair neuronal damage, so doing so afterwards might be a good way to counteract any negative effects. But what do I know? ^_^
Edit: Hah, looks like you've already got a good handle on this... hope this post isn't superfluous then.
Edited by NineStorms (04/21/08 01:17 PM)
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8310593 - 04/21/08 01:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Although a highly cautious attitude is probably a good idea, you seem to have a respectful and responsible attitude and so I think you are exactly the kind of person to be persuing a relationship with this plant. I would like to hear as much as possible about your experiments and experiences if you choose to follow this through.
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fushock

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8311070 - 04/21/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'd venture a hypothesis that the Datura-users who end up not remembering large portions of the experience were using too much of the active compound. There's some intriguing theories on how Datura and other anticholinergics blend the line between waking life and sleep, and it seems one of acetylcholine's functions is in encoding memories in the hippocampus. This is how every night you have four to six dreams, but you end up not remembering them all in the morning. Low doses of anticholinergics and Datura, based on my own experimentation and other trip reports, have proved be enormously beneficial in lucid dreaming. It seems you have to hit a perfect sweet spot with these compounds... too little and no effect, too much and you'll go so far under that the memories you obtain won't be able to get encoded back into the hippocampus.
No doubt a lot of the bad effects of Datura are dose dependent. But when you are dealing with an unrefined product that has a potential of varying wildly. And the margin of threshold experience and overdosing is very small; these types of experiences will be the norm.
I have mixed thoughts on your statement that it helps with lucid dreaming. On one hand, I can almost see how getting in the habit of questioning consciousness could help becoming lucid during normal dreaming. But I can also see this blurring of the line making it harder to tell dreams from reality.
At any rate, the "blurring of the line" effect can be reproduced with sleep deprivation. Not that sleep deprivation is something I would suggest. But it seems preferable to Datura.
I fail to see how lucid dreaming is less unimaginably powerful to a Datura trip. And even above that, I fail to see psychonaut's attraction to lucid dreaming as a learning tool. In my opinion, it doesn't help people learn about themselves in comparison to normal dreaming. Normal dreaming shows the mechanics of the mind. Lucid dreams are simply cool.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8311115 - 04/21/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sleep deprivation has some very interesting similar effects to that of deliriants... perhaps because in suffering withdrawal from REM sleep, the brain is forced to essentially start "dreaming" while still in waking life, manifesting threshold effects of crossing this boundary. The tell-tale first signs of deliriant intoxication are usually that of objects starting to shake and small black specks flying around becoming noticeable--this usually parallels the hallucinations that start happening after three or four days worth of sleep. However, with respect to using this means vs. Datura, I would highly recommend not to. Lack of sleep has been shown to cause weakening of the immune system and eventual death, and not to mention the slight hallucinations that show up under sleep deprivation seldom if ever appear to approach full scale anticholinergia.
The difference between regular lucid dreaming and Datura dreaming has intrigued me, too. Most positive Datura reports talk of an elusive female presence (the proverbial Lady Datura temptress), and the ability to call up anyone you ever knew or spoke to in order to have a full conversation with them or ask their advice. This corresponds to the supposedly traditional usage of Datura within a shamanistic context of using the plant to talk to one's ancestors and ask them for their wisdom. I've seldom heard of these occurring with regular dreams, although they might with a much smaller frequency.
As for learning something... I agree with you that normal dreams give you an insight into your subconscious. Lucid dreaming is more for people who seek power than those who seek knowledge, IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8314135 - 04/22/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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i deffinatly dont suggest other people start using at all. i agree it has a blurring and blurry effect in general i think it shoul mainly be used in conjunction with things like ayahuasca
--------------------
  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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