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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4593359 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
It's about manifesting wholeness in its deeper, non-sexual meaning.

"Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female (not) be female...then shall you enter [the Kingdom]."

Logia 22, lines 24-34 The Gospel According to Thomas


was he talking about marriage in that passage or was jesus a cross-dresser?

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4593453 -

I have a book that talks at length about the relationship between homosexuality and shamistic culture.

In short, every culture in the world has gender-varient males. In Native American cultures (well, certain ones) these are called two spirit people and are valued as wives and such.

In early buddhism, monks were encouraged to have gay sex to fulfil thier celebacy.

In the roman catholic church, they become priests.

In our culture, they make shows like queer eye for the straight guy

It's ubiquitos.

It can be explained by the fact that gay men have more connections between the two hemispheres of the brain (like women). This means they can more easily perform certain mental tasks then either men or women.

For example, when a straight man looks for directions, he is statistically likely to use a mental map. When a straight woman looks for directions, she is statistically likely to use landmarks. When a gay man looks for directions, he is statistically likely to combine both techniques into a method that is most effective, because of this brain structure difference.

So, a society that lets gender varient males fully participate and even places them on a pedistal, will gain access to the insights facilitated by the differing brain structures of gay men. In some cultures, this gender variance is manifested in part by cross dressing.

I hope that helps explain it.

I am not claiming that this sort of thought is limited to gay men. Only that there are correlations between homosexuality, shamanism, and the possession of brain structures that produce benefits for society, in the form of insights not accessible to most straight people. There are going to be straight shamans, non-shaman gays, and all sorts of other things like that. I am noting a trend, not saying that this happens in every case.


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"I am eternally free"

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: tomk]
    #4593472 -

My father used to crossdress... I never considered him very holy. Although, he did seem wholly insane sometimes.

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4593578 -

is crossdressing what made him seem insane or did him being insane make him crossdress?

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4593606 -

Likely the stress from feeling a desire to cross dress contributed to his anxiety and that caused him to be insane.

But it's not the crossdressing that made him crazy. It's the combination of his inate desire to do it and the way society condemns it that creates the cognitive dissonance that would make him crazy.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: tomk]
    #4593719 -

i didn't meen that the crossdressing literaly made him crazy but made him seem crazy. but your post makes a lot of sense. at first i thought you were talking about jesus and him being an insane crossdresser.

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4593812 -

He isn't 'truely' insane. He is a bit of a wacky guy sometimes.
When I was younger he used to chase my friends around with a lawnmower.

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4593850 -

chase them trying to be silly and fun or mean and hurtful?
i mean was he a bad guy? thats what i'm getting at sense you mentioned he crossed dressed and was not holy but wholly insane (which made me think you think badly of crossdressers).

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4594521 -

Cross-dressing is either a manifestation of a disruption in simple sexual identity, or it is a manifestation of an underlying dynamic in the psyche. It can be psychosexual as mentioned, or it can be psychospiritual as in the case of a shaman which would be in the service of manifesting symbolic 'wholeness,' to a tribe, not a matter of sexual identity. Then there is the internalized 'conjunction of opposites' that the Thomas writings speak to - a more complete process that operates on higher (more inclusive) levels. Kabbalistically, one would say that the spheres of Judgement and Mercy are in balance - the feminine and the masculine respectively.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4595085 -

Kabbalistically, one would say that the spheres of Judgement and Mercy are in balance - the feminine and the masculine respectively.
Yea ! Quite exactly, even if the male and female are parted between 2 - 4 (the emperor, hebrew G) and 4 -7 (emperess, hebrew N) (middle axis), the two collums are also related to male female, but not exclusively. ( Even I need the true hebrew meanings of the connections between the spheres...I only have them as letters, which is the key, of course, but very hard to understand)

Nevertheless, if the two collums are in balance, the middle collum will start to shine and bring enlightenement (through the moon, the sun and the star) :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4595173 -

Tiphereth rules - with the balance of both. Tiphereth [Beauty] is also called Rahamim [Compassion]  :heart:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4595451 -

between 2 - 4 (the emperor, hebrew G) and 4 -7 (emperess, hebrew N)
correction..first (emperor) should be hebrew Bet and second (empress) hebrew Kaf...I think.so...ahm, or so..cough (reread)

But Tipereth is a sure :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4595499 -

what does Kabbalistically mean?
what is Tipereth?

Edited by MJF (08/29/05 03:38 PM)

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: tomk]
    #4597414 -

Quote:
But it's not the crossdressing that made him crazy. It's the combination of his inate desire to do it and the way society condemns it that creates the cognitive dissonance that would make him crazy.


what's a person to do in this situation?
cross-dress and feel condemned?
or dont cross dress and feel frustrated?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4597429 -

It was in a silly playful way. I knew this, but my friends didn't always understand it... which made it twice as funny. He isn't really "wholly insane", he just has some entertaining quirks.

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4599015 -

MJF said:
what does Kabbalistically mean?
what is Tipereth?


There are ways to  see the male and female side inside the kabbalistic system of the 'tree of life'.
Often, and most correctly it is descibed as the two outer pillars of the three pillars. The left pillar is often called male and consists of (sorry, if words are a littlebit differen translated) intelligence/understanding, strength, and splendor.
The right female pillar consosts of wisdom, mercy/love and victory...
They emanate and merge again in the middle pillar of crown, beauty, base and rich/empire/kingdom...
Those are the spheres, while the six is the beauty/mildness what is called Tiphereth in hebrew.. It is, as said, in the middle of the middle pillar, which is kind of a balance-point for the tree. It once was above material human consideration and recognition, now, since humans got conscious (which is to bring in biblical relation to the sin-fall), it is brought to be real for our real realisation and experience. Perhaps to consider, what we have lost, and could reach again ?! :laugh:

Many contemplations can be made upon the tree of life. Some do it all of their life :laugh:

edit: aeh, yes, and I learned on a syste of tarot that (like so many) project itself into the kabbalistic tree...and there, not only the two pillars are female and male, but more definitely, the splitting between 2 and 7, splitted into two splits (2-4 (male) and 4-7(female)). That's an interesting, wellmeaning interpretation, which brings some complications and interesting aspects :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (08/30/05 01:33 PM)

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4599356 -

http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html
As my Mom used to say: "Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!"


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4599424 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html
As my Mom used to say: "Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!"


I have to keep it a secret from my mom.

well not really...but it seems better to.

Edited by MJF (08/30/05 03:14 PM)

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4599464 -

hehe, it is still a riddle, I think, how the arkanes are presented on the 'pathways' between the spheres...
I use a totally different layout for them...interesting :wink:
I will go on the hebrew konsonants...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: cross-dressing regarded w/ religious reverence? [Re: MJF]
    #4599492 -



I just read this today in the book Bacchus: A Biography by Andrew Dalby. Bacchus [Dionysus] must travel to Tartaros, the Underworld, to rescue his mother Semele. To 'cross-over' to the Underworld he has to complete a 'rite of passage' named by an old man - sex with the old man. Bacchus already dresses in a "flamboyant" style. When he returns from the realm of Hades, Prosymnos, the old man is dead, but Bacchus honors his promise in a most bizarre way. I've underlined the text.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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