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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Spiritual Elitism
    #4379727 - 07/07/05 02:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

One attitude that I see expressed here on a regular basis is that of elitism. It is the attitude that because one holds to a complex spiritual tradition with many subtleties, that it is inherantly superior to more basic spiritual ideas. It seems to be primarily embedded in the peronalities of those who adhere rigidly to complex Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian myths as their base. I do not believe that all of the Hindu, Buddhist, and Christians here foster this attitude, but it is still an oppressive influence felt here. I also know this attitude to be counter to the values of these fine religious traditions. What gives here? This is just my obsevation and maybe I am wrong...so you guys can discuss it...or flame me if you feel like it.

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men?robbers, evildoers, adulterers?or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
-Luke 18:11


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4379740 - 07/07/05 02:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Thats kinda the point I was trying to make in my Dogma post.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: niteowl]
    #4379749 - 07/07/05 02:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Thats kinda the point I was trying to make in my Dogma post."

That is what made me post this...you didn't come right out and say it though...so I did. The dogma thread was interesting.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinerowleyxx9
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4379950 - 07/07/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

but clearly some people are better than others :smile:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381134 - 07/07/05 08:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yup... this is one reason I don't speak about my spiritual practices and beliefs around my family. They're devout Christians who would trash your beliefs on the grounds that they're not rooted in hundreds of years of "tradition" (dogma).


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: moog]
    #4381156 - 07/07/05 09:05 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I can understand that when we are discussing run of the mill Christians, but I expect a higher standard from the people on this forum. Posting here implies the recognition for the need for greater understanding.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381738 - 07/07/05 11:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That sounds pretty elitest to me, but then so am I. I mean, this Shroomery discusses one 'mind-manifesting" AKA psyche-delic substance - the "red pill" to cite a more recent metaphor. People might cloak themselves in Christian dogma, but given just one wake-up call with a major psychedelic, and their religion would crumble for the very reasons that the skeptics all point out about religion. The skeptics themselves only know the cloak of religious garb, not the kernal. The "run of the mill Christian" is living in la la land - childish, magickal-thinking (not Real magick) 'pie-in-the-sky-when-we-die' brainwashing. Just one trip and they'd be hysterical about the devil and the demonic mushroom, and 'what have you done to me?' and so on and so forth.

I don't think that I'd have the courage to go to the stake for my beliefs. In fact, I would probably change my beliefs to avoid being burned at the stake. That whole game is fixed just like the dogma that created orthodoxy and heresy. I think it was not so courageous as misguided to acquiesce to horrible pain for the profession of a doctrine, but, then, lots of Gnostics felt the same way and were called cowards. I'm not here to puff up my ego and stand against professional and constitutionally bred bullies, just to make a point which will never be taken by any bully. All that is confusion of ego with Self, politics with religion. They are oil and water and do not mix. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto GOD what is GOD's."

Tripping is 24/7 whether I like it or not, (and I haven't 'tripped' in over a year), til death do us part. I got 'turned on' a long time ago and I've never wanted to be 'turned off.' It's lonely a lot living outside 'the Matrix.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4381813 - 07/08/05 12:14 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think it is elitist for one to expect that those searching for the truth be slightly more enlightened on the subject than those who are apathetic.

"Just one trip and they'd be hysterical about the devil and the demonic mushroom, and 'what have you done to me?' and so on and so forth."

It has been my experience that the psychedelic experience tends to reinforce the religious beliefs of the person who experiences it, but that is all dependant on one's intent. I know many people who use psychedelics to "party" and do NOT consider it a mystical experience at all. Their religious beliefs are untouched by it. This forum has confirmed this fact to me many times.
Ultimately what I was addressing was situations where one is dealt with as an idiot because they interpretted a piece of scripture differently...or even professed ignorance for said scripture, or even asked a simple question about it. Many people enjoy cloaking their religion in brightly colored clothes, and referencing arcane writings. The followers of the Kaballah, Hinduism, and Christianity absorb themselves in colorful mythological symbols and stories. That is all well and good. I prefer to see my religion as a merely a core feeling one feels in the heart, with a simple value system to back it up.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineLazyCrash
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4382443 - 07/08/05 03:13 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think all the religions stem from the same truths.

Eastern seems to focus more on self-awareness rather than the force of God, while Western deals heavily on God and prophecy. Both with a heavy emphasis on moral behavior.

I consider myself newly spiritual, but totally unreligious.

I love eastern philosophy because it relates so well to the psychadellic experience.

But I can't help but wonder if the Bible prophecies are true...maybe not the rapture in its fullest extent, but the other endtime anti-christ stuff. The Bible is a great peice of work, but a lot of christianity is fear inducing crap, IMHO.


--------------------
:mallow:


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: LazyCrash]
    #4382502 - 07/08/05 03:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The problem with buddhism and the psychedelic experience is that the psychedelic experience is hard to let go of. It may bring you a deep realization of some truth, but it will also bring the danger of holding onto the psychedelic experience.

I believe spiritual growth involves a mental health component, and that concientiously using psychedelics, not to 'find god' or 'find yourself', but to cast some demon out of your head, and gain more peace. Therefore, I think the spiritual benefits of psychedelics mostly boil down to the benefits they offer in psychotherapy*, and partly boil down to the glimpse of cosmic consciouness/egolessness they can offer.

The point is, trying to maintain a high stops being condusive to spiritual growth quickly. Look. Psychedelics are like a telescope. They can show you the top of the proverbial mountain, and it's pretty, and fascinating, and great. But, they can also show you yourself way up close. It's better to use them as a tool to see yourself, so you can make sure you are in a healthy enough place to try and climb the mountain, then to get caught staring at the top. Sometimes, you might peak at it to see how you are doing along the way. But, there is a huge difference between tripping, and learning to calm your mind enough that you gain that clarity. Eastern philosophy is all about the later, psychedelics are mostly about the former. Don't be led astray by people over-eager to justify their own use of psychedelics.**

*Full disclosure; I still smoke pot several times a day, and I plan to trip Saturday.
**Full disclosure; I do this a lot, and no doubt lead some people astray.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: tomk]
    #4383001 - 07/08/05 09:09 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"the psychedelic experience is hard to let go of. It may bring you a deep realization of some truth, but it will also bring the danger of holding onto the psychedelic experience"

This is my thought as well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383029 - 07/08/05 09:23 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Good post tomk. I agree as well. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4383037 - 07/08/05 09:30 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

It's lonely a lot living outside 'the Matrix.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to think so. When I was ready, I have found others including my partner and some here also.  Now I realize the real lonelyness happened before the red pill.

Mark I  like your thoughts here. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #4383170 - 07/08/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks. That is pretty much why I stay around here, and besides the occasional meander into The Pub or some Cultivation Pics, I pretty much have taken up residence in the S&P (at least until I'm banned).

Part of me still believes that I have to live in the state that I entered into on my 2nd acid trip in which I experienced life as a 'liminality' - a union of opposites. When night fell, I kept asking people "what changed, something is different?" when it occurred to me that it was dark outside. All the usual inner changes that I experience in mood and diurnal rhythm were completely unaffected. The state was one of such solidity of consciousness that I felt independent of the planetary rotation and the hemisphere of people, animals and plants moving into nocturnal behaviors. It was as close a state of Equanimity as I can imagine approached Sat Chit Ananda. Earlier, I had seen a 'Clear Light,' a partly visual experience of the transparent luminosity of existence, while looking at my dorm. I ran into the building from outside the Interfaith Chapel, burst into my room wherein my roommate and another tripper were and proclaimed "I Know why the Buddha smiles!" They laughed and asked me "Why?!" at which I lost the Realization by trying to put my Experience into words that could answer a linear question.

This morning I felt the new day as a rapid merry-go-round ride. I'm on summer vacation and I want to "stop the world" as Don Juan says because I'm caught in this sense of the opposites. Tomorrow is my birthday and tomorrow evening, as I enter "the crack between the worlds," I'm gonna try to "stop the world."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #4383178 - 07/08/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think much of spiritual elitism comes from people moving from a common starting point of finding a particular religious tradition to be a useful tool to believing that it accurately, fully and explicitly defines reality. It's not likely that any religious tradition gives you an understanding of "reality" in any complete sense. Remember: the map is not the territory.

I also happen to think that plenty of followers of a given tradition often misunderstand the subtleties of that tradition. This happens with Buddhism in particular, especially with the different sects and all. I think people sometimes get distracted by the flourishes and institutions and take the teachings at face value. Something like "attachment" is trickier than it seems, because one can easily become attached to non-attachment or something of the sort.


--------------------
\


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4383183 - 07/08/05 10:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"When night fell, I kept asking people "what changed, something is different?"

I have read that LSD fires circuits in the brain that have never been fired until that point. These pathways remain in use. Oh, yeah...have a happy birthday tomorrow Markos!


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/08/05 10:47 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4383192 - 07/08/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What you discussed is the reason I lost interest in Buddhism....it gave no clear path due to the many interpretations. I decided that if I had to make my own interpretation I may as well just make my own religion while I am at it. Good post about attachment.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383201 - 07/08/05 10:47 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Falsify! Justify! Ranting. Enchanting. Crap of diction.

Which phrase best suits you?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383244 - 07/08/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

it gave no clear path due to the many interpretations.

The Christian religion is the same way IME.
Too many "churches" getting too many different interpretations from the same book

Just go with what works for you.

People should stop saying that.....
"My way is the right way. If your not doing it my way then you are wrong."

That is what turns me off.
When people tell me that my path is some how flawed.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Elitism [Re: niteowl]
    #4383252 - 07/08/05 11:10 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I agree whole heartedly.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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