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Offlinedaimyo
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Hippy Utopia - Who Cares?
    #4355273 - 06/30/05 02:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I've been wondering lately...

Why is it that some people wish to save the environment?
Why not worry about advancing our space programs so we can colonize new, "homemade" systems?

Why is it that some people think violence is not natural and that somehow we can all peacefully get along?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of a violence free world?
Is it possible to go from our current state to a violence free existence without the total destruction and re-creation of everything?

Do the benefits of a sickless society outweight the benefits of natural selection?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Edited by daimyo (06/30/05 03:08 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355304 - 06/30/05 02:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"Why not worry about advancing our space programs so we can colonize new, "homemade" systems?"
Because we are still 30 to 50 years out from this technology.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355315 - 06/30/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Natural selection is not working in human society.
Poor, rich, sick, healthy, fatt, slim, fast, slow, pretty, ugly, all get the same number of children (1-3) sall these genes are equaly carried on

Natural selection is when you die because you are to slow, or are not a good hunter.

In human society, if you are good hunter you get rich, and make your 2 kids on a Yacht. If you are not a good hunter, you stay home in your 2-room rented apartment and make your 2 kids there.

Now since we all equally pass on our genes, we can do it in peace, or we can do it with endles fights

Besides, everyone has the right to express their opinion, they want peace, and you want war, you can have your war, they will get away from you, find a peacefull place, and we will all live happily ever after.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355325 - 06/30/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

and regarding your space program, I assume you will be amont the first that buy houses on mars. The common man will not set foot on mars for at least 200 years. By common man I mean a guy that can barely pay for a plate ticket


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4355334 - 06/30/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Why live on Mars. Man made ecosystems in orbit (or as a generational spaceship) is the way to go. That WILL happen within the next 50 years I predict.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355382 - 06/30/05 02:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

damage to the environment and violence do not bother me. its just part of the constant change and balance in our world.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4355398 - 06/30/05 02:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Natural selection is not working in human society.



That's what I was trying to get at. When people are sick, they can get treatment to cure a disease that would have killed them at one point. Once gene therapy gets going, there may be no natural cause of death. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
and regarding your space program, I assume you will be amont the first that buy houses on mars.



You must have me mistaken for someone else. I have no space program.
I will not be among the first to buy a house on mars, I do not care for the color red. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355401 - 06/30/05 03:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

In reponce to your first couple questions....

This planet supports our life, if it dies we die.

If we only focus on our space programs and do come up with the means to colonize other plants(hundreds of years away at least, and at our current rate we will have diminshed the resources needed to do that anyways) then what happens when we get to those planets, just destroy them and move on too, I honstly don't think we could keep up with that.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4355405 - 06/30/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Why live on Mars. Man made ecosystems in orbit (or as a generational spaceship) is the way to go. That WILL happen within the next 50 years I predict.



That's what I was referring to in my original post.
It is possible that if we stopped worrying so much about saving Earth, we could focus a lot more on building a new, better one. Whether or not we'd be able to begin the construction before we ruined this planet is another story.
Also, if we were to build new ecosystems in space, how would we choose the inhabitants? Almost certainly there would not be enough room for everyone at first, so some would have to stay behind and live on the tattered remains of the Old World.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: alsey]
    #4355406 - 06/30/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Damage to the environment and violence do bother me greatly. However this is a personal preference and I am not addicted to it. Whatever is happening is what is supposed to be happening and I accept that.
My personal preference is to revel in the beauty of the natural world, to find a balance where other species can live along side us. To know when enough is enough and to enjoy the immaterial pleasures and value them as much as the material. To avoid violence whenever possible, as I believe it is very unpleasant. :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355417 - 06/30/05 03:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Why is it that some people wish to save the environment?
Why not worry about advancing our space programs so we can colonize new, "homemade" systems?


Well, c'mon, obviously there's a valid argument in favor of saving the environment. There's no guarantee that we'll be able to advance our technology adequately to colonize new environements, and maintaing an enviroment which is healthy with ample resources has obvious advantages.


Better points here though.
Why is it that some people think violence is not natural and that somehow we can all peacefully get along?

Wishful thinking. The shrooms told them or something.

What is the are the advantages and disadvantages of a violence free world?
Is it possible to go from our current state to a violence free existence without the total destruction and re-creation of everything?


Probably not possible at all. Working to reduce violence is definitely a noble cause, and should not be discouraged. Avoiding war and violence is certainly smart thinking.

It's a popular idea among hippy types claim that there was once a time when humans were peaceful and happy, living in a perfect society. Then it all crumbled... this is usually blamed on whatever it is the hippy has decided is the root of all evil, commerce, alcohol, organized religion, whatever.

Now, the funniest thing about this is that it's quite obvious human instincts are similar to those of many animals. When we feel threatened, we will often get violent. There are all kinds of triggers for anger in us that are much like those of animals. Jealousy and the strive for popularity can be compared to the fights animals have for social status and mating rights within their own communities.

So in order for this notion to be true, we would have evolved all that time acting like animals, and then for some brief period in our history, completely lost those violent instincts, only to have them brought back by the almighty dollar or something.

Do the benefits of a sickless society outweight the benefits of natural selection?

Probably not, but I doubt we'll ever be completely without disease. Especially not if hippies have anything to say about it, herbs, crystals, and fear of vaccines certainly aren't going to put an end to disease anytime soon.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: barfightlard]
    #4355423 - 06/30/05 03:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
If we only focus on our space programs and do come up with the means to colonize other plants(hundreds of years away at least, and at our current rate we will have diminshed the resources needed to do that anyways) then what happens when we get to those planets, just destroy them and move on too, I honstly don't think we could keep up with that.




My hope is that if we were able to obtain the means to travel to, and colonize other planets then we would also have ways to keep them pristine.
Also, I feel that if travel/colonization was happening there would be a constant effort to go out and try new systems on new planets. A whole new industry like in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy books.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355436 - 06/30/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Ya thatd be nice, but it won't happen in your life time or your grand childrens. We have the ability to fix our planet, so we should.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355437 - 06/30/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"It is possible that if we stopped worrying so much about saving Earth, we could focus a lot more on building a new, better one"

Yes, but the original has to last long enough. Also that is no reason to destroy the planet. We can expand beyond it while leaving it in good condition.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: barfightlard]
    #4355447 - 06/30/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Ya thatd be nice, but it won't happen in your life time or your grand childrens.



Got tonights lottery numbers?

Quote:

bellylard said:
We have the ability to fix our planet, so we should.



Duly noted. How do we go about doing this?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355456 - 06/30/05 03:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Start spending money on alternative forms of energy and don't bitch about how it will cost too much money, blah, blah , blah just stfu and make an effort to fix the planet and it will be done. The problem is the people who are in a position to help the greatest don't give a fuck.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355527 - 06/30/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Natural selection is not working in human society.



That's what I was trying to get at. When people are sick, they can get treatment to cure a disease that would have killed them at one point. Once gene therapy gets going, there may be no natural cause of death. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
and regarding your space program, I assume you will be amont the first that buy houses on mars.



You must have me mistaken for someone else. I have no space program.
I will not be among the first to buy a house on mars, I do not care for the color red. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups.




No I did not confuse you with someone else, I say your program because you are the one suggesting it. And since I know that you are not the one who will be moving to mars, I was trying to make a point that you are among these who would die along with this planet.


and as for natural sepection:

yes, if we can make ourselfs healthy and long living, it's a good thing because that is what we all (more or less) want.
We are just endulging our wishes.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4355597 - 06/30/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"It is possible that if we stopped worrying so much about saving Earth, we could focus a lot more on building a new, better one."

"My hope is that if we were able to obtain the means to travel to, and colonize other planets then we would also have ways to keep them pristine."

The key to maintaining life/ecosystems is balance.

Obviously earths ecosystem has a very fantastic, efficient, and flexible rhythm/harmony. Now if we can't even take care of our own planet by being in harmony with it's life cycles, then how do you think we will be able to maintain harmony in an artificial environment? Life and DNA must function by the same harmony no matter if it's in a test tube or a rain forest.

It will be impossible to create a lasting artificial ecosystem unless we learn how to take care of the one we were born into.

we may be able to create new systems, but they will always be based on the same god-given rules of physics, biology, and balance.

Violence is natural, you are right. We can't escape it. But we can find harmony with it and avoid self-destruction through blind rage. We can simulate war in sports, wrestling, etc. Finding healthy outlets for violence may not only prevent self-destruction, but also bring the group/society closer together.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: daimyo]
    #4355603 - 06/30/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Why is it that some people think violence is not natural and that somehow we can all peacefully get along?




It puzzles me, because i believe the opposite. I mean, i believe violence is natural, and it's up to mankind, a self proclaimed "intelligent species", to overcome our natural limitations and to evolve toward the path of wisdom, achieving perfection. "all peacefully get along" is still asking for too much, but it will surely be either the result or the catalyst in our path of evolution and realization of a totally free society. Today we call it utopia .... :smirk:

Quote:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a violence free world?




IMHO a violence free world means the achievement of many previous social struggles. The path to achieve this world might be its main disadvantage, as an objective i can only see advantages. Heck , who wouldn't like to live in a violence free world ?

Quote:

Is it possible to go from our current state to a violence free existence without the total destruction and re-creation of everything?




No, in the sense that you are still everything but everything isn't you. "To become" can also mean death and rebirth.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hippy Utopia - Who Cares? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4356027 - 06/30/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
Obviously earths ecosystem has a very fantastic, efficient, and flexible rhythm/harmony. Now if we can't even take care of our own planet by being in harmony with it's life cycles, then how do you think we will be able to maintain harmony in an artificial environment?




By limiting the use of damaging things. We know how to take care of the planet, but most refuse to do their part to help. Everyday millions of people drive cars. Why? Is walking, or riding a bike, or even taking public transportation that much to ask?
Why are people too lazy to lobby against cutting down trees when we could use hemp or something else?
When will geothermal heating and cooling take hold?

To me the biggest threat to the environment is the complacency of most humans. Sure everyone would love to help the environment along..if they didn't have to do or change anything.
But in the beginning of an artificial space environment it would be possible to only allow those commited to decent living in. Those who want to log and drive hummers can stay on their Earth.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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